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Is it our thoughts or is it what we do about it?

Started by HappyMoni, August 24, 2017, 09:19:07 PM

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HappyMoni

   I got to thinking about this today and am interested in your thoughts. Generally speaking, for the people who disapprove of trans people, do you think it is merely the fact that we have thoughts that our gender is not fitting us, or is the objection that we take action to make changes to ourselves? I think of someone who states they have gender dysphoria, but then live a life never taking any steps to act on that, are they still looked down upon just because they had thoughts? I know there are all kinds of haters/disapprovers and this question should maybe be directed toward them, but it just struck me that for some, just the idea that we have transgender thoughts might be enough to get us ostracized. To take it a step further, a hater/disapprover might have absolutely no impact to their life and still they find they must judge us negatively. It is amazing.
Moni
If I ever offend you, let me know. It's not what I am about.
"Never let the dark kill your light!"  (SailorMars)

HRT June 11, 2015. (new birthday) - FFS in late June 2016. (Dr. _____=Ugh!) - Full time June 18, 2016 (Yeah! finally) - GCS June 27, 2017. (McGinn=Yeah!) - Under Eye repair from FFS 8/17/17 - Nose surgery-November 20, 2017 (Dr. Papel=Yeah) - Hair Transplant on June 21, 2018 (Dr. Cooley-yeah) - Breast Augmentation on July 10, 2018 (Dr. Basner in Baltimore) - Removed bad scarring from FFS surgery near ears and hairline in August, 2018 (Dr. Papel) -Sept. 2018, starting a skin regiment on face with Retin A  April 2019 -repairing neck scar from FFS

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Colleen_definitely

I think it's because most people can't relate and it just seems weird. The very thing that drives us mad is something they take for granted and they can't understand why anyone would have a problem with it.
As our ashes turn to dust, we shine like stars...
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Laurie


  I am of the opinion that it is not anything that the transgender person does that illicits the negative responses. I believe it is nothing more than a product of either their familial upbringing, religious teachings or societal conditioning.
People are not born hating others, it is always a learned trait. All one has to do to incur such an individual's wrath is to let it be know that they are transgender.
  Nothing is going to change until the teachers are all gone.

That's my 2 cents for what it's worth.

Hugs,
    Laurie
April 13, 2019 switched to estradiol valerate
December 20, 2018    Referral sent to OHSU Dr Dugi  for vaginoplasty consult
December 10, 2018    Second Letter VA Psychiatric Practical nurse
November 15, 2018    First letter from VA therapist
May 11, 2018 I am Laurie Jeanette Wickwire
May   3, 2018 Submitted name change forms
Aug 26, 2017 another increase in estradiol
Jun  26, 2017 Last day in male attire That's full time I guess
May 20, 2017 doubled estradiol
May 18, 2017 started electrolysis
Dec   4, 2016 Started estradiol and spironolactone



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Tommie_9

I think for some who are close to us, there's a process of grieving over the loss of who they thought we were, not understanding we're the same person we've always been where it matters most. I think you're right that some may not like it because we "think" we're transgender, and they think it's a mental illness of some sort. Others don't care what we think and don't want to be associated with someone their culture tells them is weird. By accepting us, they fear their own rejection from those they emotionally, co-dependently, need to accept them. Human beings are insecure creatures that need to feel accepted by their tribe, some at any cost, so those who think they hate us do so out of their own insecurity. I'm empathetic toward those who have difficulty with this as long as there's no hate there. Those are some of my thoughts. Peace.
Finding 'self' is the first step toward becoming 'self'. Every step is part of a journey. May your journey lead to happiness. Peace!
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RobinSparkles

I've been thinking about this because it has an impact on how I view myself in getting more comfortable with who I am. Society teaches us what a man is supposed to be and what a woman is supposed to be. Straying from that threatens their sense of dignity within any given role, so its projected unto us through hate. A defense mechanism, and that perpetuates the cycle of fear on both sides.

I remember when I was 8 or 9 I came home from the babysitter wearing fingernail polish. My dad was so disgusted with it he decided to painfully scrape it off with his pocket knife telling me "you are a BOY". Needless to say I never did that again while living with him and every time I thought about it, I felt bad about myself. It threatened the manhood I had been taught. I moved out when I was 16, and guess what the first thing I did was? Fingernail polish was back on. A couple months later I went back to that side of the family for a funeral. My dad saw my nails, threw his knife to me, and told me to "scrape that junk off before your aunt and cousins see it". I think that sums it up. A cycle of fear.
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Dena

I was getting politics out of my system on a conservative web site and I posted in a transgender article. I received a personal message that might help you understand some of what they feel.

You are the most confused person I have ever come in contact with. I am betting you watch and believe main stream media. Haven't you figured out what is truth and what are lies? PLEASE...you your own sake stop believing what you hear and start digging for yourself. I guarantee you will come to opposite conclusions.

Needless to say, I think it's a little late for me.
Rebirth Date 1982 - PMs are welcome - Use [email]dena@susans.org[/email] or Discord if your unable to PM - Skype is available - My Transition
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Michelle_P

Fundamentally, the very thought that a person might think that their gender identity is not the same thing as their assigned sex at birth constitutes an 'outside context problem', what Ian Banks defined as "anything that has heretofore not been expected, due to either lack of imagination, or ability."

When such problems don't map onto anything in the person's experience, they have no intrinsic way to address the issue.  The fallback is to rely on their belief system to address the issue. 

For some, their belief system is based on science and research, referencing facts to aid in understanding.  For others, their belief system is based on ideology, and an ideological response to an issue will be used.
Earth my body, water my blood, air my breath and fire my spirit.

My personal transition path included medical changes.  The path others take may require no medical intervention, or different care.  We each find our own path. I provide these dates for the curious.
Electrolysis - Hours in The Chair: 238 (8.5 were preparing for GCS, five clearings); On estradiol patch June 2016; Full-time Oct 22, 2016; GCS Oct 20, 2017; FFS Aug 28, 2018; Stage 2 labiaplasty revision and BA Feb 26, 2019
Michelle's personal blog and biography
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widdershins

I can confirm that for the conservative Evangelical types, the dysphoria and thoughts that you might be trans are considered sins against their god all on their own. As is any other sinful thought. (I was taught that even, e.g., having wet dreams was a sin even though you can't even control what you dream.)

It all boils down to control. It's not the fact that you're "weird" to them, at least not primarily. It's the fact that you aren't submitting to their rules.
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Deborah

I was told by a person in my old church that anyone who has these thoughts should be killed even if they have never acted upon the thoughts.


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Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment, or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being....  - Dan Barker

U.S. Army Retired
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Nina

I don't even try to understand why people disapprove or hate. These are not new traits, they've been around for thousands of years. People are always going to hate/disapprove of someone if that person is different from them.
All I can control is who I am. I didn't transition to educate the masses, but to live my life.
2007/8 - name change, tracheal shave, electrolysis, therapy
2008 - full time
2014 - GCS Dr. Brassard; remarried
2018 (January)  - hubby and I moved off-grid
2019 - plan originally was to hike PCT in 2020, but now attempting Appalachian Trail - start date April 3.
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KathyLauren

While I am sure that those who disapprove of us would consider acting to move towards transition to be worse than thinking about it, I have no doubt that they consider the thought to be sinful.  Just thinking the thought means you are thinking about genitals in an unapproved manner, and that, in their minds, is defined as a sin. 

Saying something supportive about trans people, or even failing to comdemn them, makes our allies seem as bad as us to the disapprovers or haters.  So it is definitely the though that counts.
2015-07-04 Awakening; 2015-11-15 Out to self; 2016-06-22 Out to wife; 2016-10-27 First time presenting in public; 2017-01-20 Started HRT!!; 2017-04-20 Out publicly; 2017-07-10 Legal name change; 2019-02-15 Approval for GRS; 2019-08-02 Official gender change; 2020-03-11 GRS; 2020-09-17 New birth certificate
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VeronicaLynn

I think it best not to even consider their arguments.

Many of the haters also hate people that are not white. What is their sin? Is there something they can not think or not do that will keep them from being not hated?



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Julia1996

#12
I've spent a lot of time thinking about why people are so cruel to trans individuals. I don't think there is any one reason. I think there are a lot of different reasons. One is religion. Some people are taught that anything "different" concerning gender identity or sexuality is a big sin. I think one reason some religious groups are so vicious about it is because they are taught to be. I've seen religious protests where people hold signs that say "God hates ->-bleeped-<-s". God doesn't hate. Period. Hate is a human concept. I think these religious "haters" are some of the most dangerous. Otherwise sane and rational people will do some of the most horrible things in the name of religion. Just look through history.

Another reason is the sense of loss. Especially for parents and close family members. They feel like they are loosing you and it hurts them. Then they see you as the reason they are hurting and lash out like people do when someone hurts them. I also think the more of a shock it is the worse they react. I think people feel greater loss when they had absolutely no idea the person was trans before they transition. In my case I was never really a "son" or "brother" to my dad or Tyler so it wasn't any surprise to them that I'm trans.  And also there's the embarrassment factor. My mom has never been that accepting of me being trans. With her it's always been about  what other people will think. Especially her stuck up friends. I imagine her social life has improved since she moved out because she can invite friends over without the embarrassment of her messed up family.

I think with many CIS women their hate is caused by jealousy. If you're unattractive or non passable you aren't any threat to them and it's "you poor thing". But if you are prettier than a cis woman or have a better figure it turns into "how dare you, you < phrase not allowed> " For a lot of women, someone who started out in life male and is now prettier than them is more than they can handle. They see it as really unfair. When a cis woman is not as attractive as a trans woman she's going to make sure to tell everyone your trans. Especially if a guy is more interested in you than in her.

I think a lot of the extreme intolerance of cis males toward trans females is caused for a couple of reasons. One is fear and insecurity. If a male has concerns about his gender identity or sexuality, coming into contact with someone who is the thing they are so afraid they might be causes them to lash out. They could also have the attitude that since they are repressing their own unhappiness then no way are you allowed to try and be happy. And when a guy is attracted to a transwomen , someone that he still considers male no matter how beautiful they are, it messes with his ideas of his own sexuality. Which can be very dangerous. Guys can become really viscous and even violent if their masculinity is questioned.

Another reason cis guys might be intolerant is because they truly can't understand what a transwomen is thinking . A lot of cis guys genuinely love being guys. They consider being born male a great privilege. To them it's unthinkable that someone would want to give that up. I think not just cis guys think like that but also society in general. I don't care what anyone says, people place more value on male children. I know that from my own experience. I think with a lot of cis guys, they are just totally disgusted that someone would give that up. I also think it's kind of the opposite with transguys. Guys who have a problem with FTMs seem to think, "you aren't really a guy and how dare you think you could ever be equal to me. Remember your place bitch!"

And finally I think a lot of people just don't understand transgender people and what they don't understand, people tend to fear and hate.
Julia



  <Language edited to comply with TOS 11  Use of the F bomb and derogative language is not allowed.>
Julia


Born 1998
Started hrt 2015
SRS done 5/21/2018
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Dianne H

Jesus gave the answer about those who think it is alright to kill transgender people. It applies to both Christian and non Christian.

John 16: 2, 3
[2] They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
[3] And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

Sadly, most of Christianity doesn't know the Lord. They only think they do and choose what Paul said was "another Jesus." The one who likes what they like and hates what they hate.

As for those who are transgender and don't act upon it all I can say is that maybe some do, but I don't. I imagine there are others who do and feel as I do.

It's frustrating but that is between me and the Lord.

I hope this answer doesn't offend anyone since this isn't the Spirituality section but it is an answer about Evangelicals above partially.
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Paige

#14
I do believe for most it's insecurity with themselves and society, so they run with their pack and follow the alpha.  The alpha on the other hand uses it for control but is probably also insecure about diverging too far from their larger community and possibly losing the pack.  It's a bit of a vicious circle.  People like this would definitely consider it wrong to have transgender thoughts.  They've been trained that way.

I stumbled on a TERF website the other day and I find them slightly different.  In some ways they sound identical to conservative religious types but their insecurity seems a little different.  It really reminds me of the treehouse with the "no girls allowed" sign.  They really feel threaten by idea of letting some new types of people into their club as if it would take away what makes them a victim of society.  They definitely give you the feeling that transgender people are attacking their identity.   My guess is TERFs wouldn't care if you had transgender thoughts, they just don't want you to act on them.

As for family members and friends, I think some legitimately worry for our safety and therefore worry if they show acceptance, they're putting us in danger.  These are the type of people that can come around. 

But for the most part I think the negative reaction is selfish and is all about embarrassing them to family/friends/society.  I'm guessing with these type of people they may not like it but would be fine if we just kept in the closet.

Take care,
Paige :)
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Jacqueline

 :police:

It is a part of the subject but let us be careful not to evangelize on a non religious topic.

ToS
Quote16. Please limit religious discussions to the spirituality forum. If a thread in another forum turns into a religious discussion please move the thread to the spirituality forum. Our moderators will assist in this process if necessary. Two restrictions apply to your use of the spirituality boards:

    A. You are not to pass judgments on others beliefs, any more than they are welcome to pass judgement on yours.
    B. You are free to talk about how your spirituality affects your life, but you cannot proselytize or attempt to convert others.

And Now. Back to your program already in session.

Warmly,

Jacqui
1st Therapy: February 2015
First Endo visit & HRT StartJanuary 29, 2016
Jacqueline from Joanna July 18, 2017
Full Time June 1, 2018





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Kylo

On the whole, it changes people's perceptions just to hear the idea. But that said, in my experience at least and in that of others I hear about, there's a tendency out there to consider it a "phase" or a "confusion", and sometimes hope that a trans individual will let go of the idea. So until they act on it, most people will give them at least some kind of room and be at most just disapproving or ambivalent.

Seems to me almost everyone you tell will look at you slightly differently, most will accept the idea more than will accept physical changes. And some will not look down on you at all for either.

For those whose lives are directly affected by a person's transition I would find their concern understandable - it will push them into considering things they probably hadn't before thought they would have to consider, if this was not told to them earlier. For those whose lives are not directly affected, naturally they are going to assume something is wrong with you - and in a sense of course it is, or it wouldn't be considered a medical condition requiring treatment - so there's that. Might just be concern for your welfare, concern you might be making a cry for help, concern you've been influenced by something that may not actually be "you" etc. and from what I see, the response is often not dissimilar from people's reactions when they hear a friend or family member once contemplated suicide or reckless behavior - they don't know how to handle it and they think you might be having some sort of unrelated crisis.

There are some obviously who when they hear the idea, have already decided beforehand they're dead against the idea or look down upon it. Could be for religious, ideological or practical reasons. I know a few who look down not on transsexuals, but on the surgery/HRT itself, for what they think of as practical reasons -  such as the cost, the risks, the post-operative suicide rates and things like that. Often all of these reasons come from a well-meaning place in the person's own heart, as if they are trying to warn you away from making a great mistake. It's rare I find genuine malice anywhere toward trans people when someone comes out to them. Usually it's just pity, or concern, or their idea of trying to do you a favor and make you avoid what they think is a terrible mistake. Occasionally I see the disapproving parent who is disappointed in the child for doing it as well. And then there's those who see it as bad for society at large to entertain any ideas like it.

It's very much like admitting crippling depression, attempted suicide and the like - you're admitting to a mental malaise they probably don't have nor understand, nor have the ability to negotiate, but clearly has some health negatives associated. That immediately puts you in the category of 'mentally compromised' in a sense to them, and it seems to be that they generally look down upon when they first hear it. The most common response from disapproving folks I see around is "trans people are mentally ill" rather than evil, or stupid, or anything like that, which seems to back up this observation. They think we need help, but tend to think transition won't help us. They usually have no idea what will help us, though, because they're nearly always uneducated on exactly what our condition is.
"If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
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