How do you define it? How does it affect the community? Do you suffer from it?

Thoughts, please. 

Hugs, Devlyn

I'm extremely careful with the word "internalized" as it relates to any sort of -phobia or -ogyny these days as it appears to be easily misused.

But... as I currently understand the definition of internalized transphobia...


...Which would appear to be negative thoughts, emotions and associations with being oneself trans, and a bias against being trans one may be unaware of. Commonly because being trans is seen as abnormal or deviant in wider society.

I don't have any form of this, it would seem. When my therapists ask me about it, I explain that any self-hate is long, long behind me, put away well over a decade ago before I even realized I was transsexual; I certainly wouldn't have hated myself for the fact of being trans. What I dislike is the potential negative experience and inconveniences one deals with as a trans person, which isn't the same thing. I have absolutely no dislike or disdain of trans people for the fact they are trans, nor of myself for being one. I see it reflected in the fact if someone I was dating was revealed to be one, I wouldn't be surprised, or put off. If I deal with trans people in real life it is the content of their characters that determines my opinion of them. Frankly I think I'm a fairly intelligent, rational, and well-balanced individual, and whether or not I happen to be trans doesn't lower my own value in the slightest to me.

While I do consider being transsexual to be a generally negative and stressful experience - I see it as no worse than being born with some other malady or disease one cannot help. I can't justify or experience a dislike of those born with other neurological or physical conditions or disabilities, either... and far as I can see trans people are no threat to society by way of being trans. The negative reception we get is rather an overreaction in this day and age (provided of course we do not actively engage in malicious or forceful behaviors relating to our condition and identities as trans people).

How does it affect the community - not sure exactly, but going by things discussed on these boards and elsewhere, it's a common obstacle for many people when they first come to terms with their own trans status. I think many people, for the most part, manage to overcome it or at least make peace with themselves, but often not without time or some sort of advice or support.

Before I came out to myself,  I was very open minded about others people's gender identity and sexuality,  but held myself to a completely different standard,  though I still don't really know why. It was this that kept me in denial and clossested for so long.
That I was deviant, that I did not deserve to be happy,  and that others came first; these feelings took me a LONG time to overcome.
I won't say I've beaten them fully (never will),  but I recognise them,  and can live with them rather than be ruled by them.

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Quote from: meganjames2 on September 15, 2017, 11:34:19 AM
Before I came out to myself,  I was very open minded about others people's gender identity and sexuality,  but held myself to a completely different standard,  though I still don't really know why. It was this that kept me in denial and clossested for so long.
That I was deviant, that I did not deserve to be happy,  and that others came first; these feelings took me a LONG time to overcome.
I won't say I've beaten them fully (never will),  but I recognise them,  and can live with them rather than be ruled by them.

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That's pretty insightful of you to know yourself that well. Our own spiritual growth can be some of the most amazing moments we have in life.

I completely understand you saying about deserving to be happy and others coming first... I myself have the caregivers heart which makes me an easy target... but knowing it makes all the difference, we truly may never win,  you're absolutely right but at least knowing gives us opportunities to develop new coping strategies.



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Hi Kenzie, I noticed you haven't received the information we send to new members so here it is.  We send this to everyone to help explain some of the unique characteristics and guidelines for Susan's - and to save you time.

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Kenzie I am glad you are here now, looking forward to seeing you around!

Kendra

Transphobia in general is conscious or subconscious devaluation of transgender people as human beings.  It is not usually expressed directly, although in this political season explicit examples abound.  More commonly it is cloaked...

a.  "I don't have anything against trans people, but I don't want to have to explain them to my children."

b.  "I've known you my whole life, so I'm still going to call you <deadname>."

c.  Greeting an MTF with a crushing handshake, or a FTM without one.[/li]

Trans people are not immune to transphobia, and usually begin transition with a ton of it, complicated by the perception that they can't possibly transphobic because they are trans themselves.  Some potential manifestations:

a.  Non-engagement with trans communities, for example reluctance to join a support group, or attending once, and saying, "I don't think it's worth it because there is no one like me there."

b.  100 FB posts on transgender rights, but no transgender friends.

c.  Stealth

Internalized transphobia is subconscious and often deeply enmeshed into one's thought processes.  It can be directly at self or others.  The person who has internalized transphobia often is the last to recognize it, and may thoroughly deny it, but not all denial is transphobic.  It is a way of thinking and cannot be eradicated simply by naming it, although naming it is an important step.  The most effective strategy to reduce it is to cultivate friendship with other transgender people.  Given that transphobia is cut from the same cloth as racism, sexism, classism, agism, etc, spending time in diversified spaces is also helpful.

I still have this to an extent. Like if I see a young child or person being allowed to live as the gender they say they are I think to myself; is that right as they're 'too young' or is that just me having absorbed the misinformation/judgement of other people.  Or if I see someone who identifies themself as nb I wonder if they're 'trans enough' But I then take a step back and remind myself people would freely judge me so I have no right to think that way and try my best to be more open minded

I think I am plagued by this a little bit. For example, I get hung up on the thought that I'll never be a "real woman" because I'll never menstruate, never have a uterus, didn't grow up as a girl, etc. But of course, these thoughts are nonsense. None of those things define women.

Occasionally, I think of some anthropologist digging up my skeleton in a hundred years' time and concluding that I was a man because of my bone structure. And then, that creeping voice in my head says, "Wouldn't they be right? Isn't this all really a lot of nonsense?" But most of the time, I recognise this thinking for the pile of balljuice that it is.

Perhaps what I've described doesn't fit into a scientific definition of "internalised transphobia", but I reckon it's along the same lines.

Quote from: meganjames2 on September 15, 2017, 11:34:19 AM
Before I came out to myself,  I was very open minded about others people's gender identity and sexuality,  but held myself to a completely different standard,  though I still don't really know why. It was this that kept me in denial and clossested for so long.
That I was deviant, that I did not deserve to be happy,  and that others came first; these feelings took me a LONG time to overcome.
I won't say I've beaten them fully (never will),  but I recognise them,  and can live with them rather than be ruled by them.

Sent from my MI 5s using Tapatalk

Megan... We are kindred spirits. Much of what you have experienced is so similar how i've approached life as an outsider seeking to fit in. Strength of mind if not body.

Speaking and examining this from the perspective of the "Chameleon" me, as well as the much younger shame and guilt riddled me, I have seen demonstrated time and time and time and time again just exactly what comes out of the mouths of guys (for sure) as well as women, when they feel safe and secure away from the PC Police, just exactly what they "Profess" to feel about "One of those". Now, I say profess, because of societal induced peer pressure. To be far, they all, just as I was, taught from on early age onward the appropriate response.

I know I internalized much of this mass hatred of those abhorrent things, not brave enough to even pretend to be gay, trying to fool perfectly "Normal" guys and sway them to the dark side of the force. I know, or was taught, just how BIG of a pariah I would be, IF ANYONE ever learned of my deep dark secret. Like others, I did my best to shield this secret from exposure by being the biggest, best or craziest "ideal" for acceptance and to ward off any possible closer examination of an inadvertent gender conforming/confirming slip up.

Today, after losing a TON of that shame and guilt about being trans, I do question if my internalized transphobia is just that? Or, is it being realistic?  In either case, it does tend to dictate some decisions these days. Not quite as much as my wife's concerns and our mutual desire to preserve "The Us" does

In the most traditional sense, I don't think I suffer from internalized transphobia in that I never had any directly negative thoughts about being transgender. Quite the opposite really, as I saw it as an amazing, hopeful thing in general that people could transcend their birth assignment. What I did (and still do to a degree) suffer from is low self esteem in terms of feeling that I would be unable to live up to idealized standards of what it means to be a woman. I don't know if this is technically transphobia or not, but it was certainly negative and led to my repression and dishonesty with myself. (Honestly though, I'm still piecing things together and most of my 20s us just sort of blurred into one big mess, so it's hard to pick out more singular thoughts I had regarding the subject.)

Crossdressing shame as a kid probably qualifies actually, but then I didn't have any real concepts of any of this at the time, and so it was just more of a generic shame because I believed it to be abnormal and didn't understand it rather than a thought that it was an act of being transgender and that being transgender was shameful. I think I would have felt differently if I had something to place it in context.

I personally think that including those of us that are "stealth" under your rubric of "internalized transphobia" is frankly quite hateful and demonstrates an exclusionary tendency which seems to negate the often stated claims of acceptance of diversity. Those of us who have lived our lives from the beginning, from before most of you were out of diapers, should not be subjected to the judgment of those who have no idea what our lives are like, despite paying huge amounts of lip service to how much they wished they could have "gone stealth".

I expected that entry might get a little pushback. 

I would be happy to clarify why I offered it as an example on the list and discuss it with you respectfully here, or in a spinoff thread.  Whether or not you wish to do so, however, please understand that while I question the wisdom of stealth as a strategy, I understand that we each get to make our own choices.  I don't hate people who have gone stealth, and though I have never paid an ounce of lip service to wishing I could have gone stealth, I would never exclude people who made that choice from anything if I had the power to do so, which of course, I don't. 

And, if you have been living your life from before I was out of diapers, my congratulations on your longevity.  May you continue to live long and prosper.

I think the older we are the more of this baggage we're carrying around. I didn't think passing mattered to me, but I've discovered that it does. Sometimes I dream of moving after transition so that no one would know I was ever a man. I know that's just internalized transphobia working on me and I think that's what rmaddy's getting at. It's real, it's one of my biggest problems I'm dealing with now. Complete, transphobia is one of the reasons some of us didn't transition long ago. You overcame the fear and was able to overcome the other obstacles and live our dream!

Hi rmaddy and thank you for being so reasonable. For me, being seen and respected as the woman l am is/was not a strategy. It was a simple matter of survival. Just as l accept and can love those who are different than me, l am thankful that you too are of the same open mindedness. What l found hateful was putting it in the same hate filled category as sexism and racism.
Dani. I have nothing but the utmost respect for those who are attempting transition at an older age. There is no question in my mind that there are issues involved of which l haven't even the faintest inkling of what that must be like. I can only imagine that all the fears and hurdles that l faced must be even greater.
Personally l think that the term transphobia is very difficult to define in a way that all can agree on. Fear and hatred of being  trans Is the obvious way. But then what is trans? In most cases that l have encountered,  it is whatever anyone wants to say it is.

Quote from: Complete on September 17, 2017, 05:07:46 PM
Hi rmaddy and thank you for being so reasonable. For me, being seen and respected as the woman l am is/was not a strategy. It was a simple matter of survival. Just as l accept and can love those who are different than me, l am thankful that you too are of the same open mindedness. What l found hateful was putting it in the same hate filled category as sexism and racism.

Whoa!  If I said that, then I was wrong, and I apologize.  What I did say is that transphobia is cut from the same cloth as the  other "isms".  The sorts of things that I said were potential manifestations of transphobia included a half dozen things, many of which have shown up in my own thinking over the years.  I see risk for internalized transphobia in stealth, but I also see it in other experiences with which I have had more personal experience.  Transphobia is something we all potentially have to root out of our consciousness.

I don't know that I have any internalized transphobia towards myself, once I figured it out, I was like "great, now I know what's wrong. Lets fix it." But I definitely had some internalized (meaning unspoken, didn't realize what it was) transphobia.

If anyone happened across and remembers (I know Devlyn probably will) my first post ever (albeit from when I was a naive little thing that didn't know anything about the world), I dealt with this on a pretty big scale. I couldn't comprehend the concept of another trans person that felt differently about their body then how I felt about mine, and accept that they were also trans.
Sometimes, I think I still battle with some form of it. It terrified me yesterday to be out with A. (to catch you up- transwoman, girlfriend, presented yesterday for the first time (still can't convince her to come to Susan's)), because I was scared of how people here might react to/ towards her. I caught myself thinking about how I would almost have rathered her not present because of that.
Logically, I know that's crazy. She needs to dress and act the way she feels is right for her- just like I do when I wear a shirt and tie on Sundays, and do everything I possibly can to avoid looking like a female in my uniform.

I think I was more scared FOR her than anything else. I don't worry about myself, but I was extremely worried about her and I'm pretty sure I had more nerves about it than she did. I don't know if it was because I don't care if someone beats me up, but if they touched her I might just rip their head off, or if its because she's so much more obvious than I am. There was no questioning it with her- people knew after one look, whereas with me, I look more andro and people are more confused than anything else. Maybe it's a bit of both. Maybe if we were somewhere like San Fran or Colorado I wouldn't have had as much of an internal problem with it.

That could also just be a problem with me caring too much about what other people think, though.

Quote from: rmaddy on September 16, 2017, 11:26:30 AM
c.  Stealth

Stealth being what? The deliberate "hiding" of one's trans status, or simply keeping one's private business to oneself?

It needs to be defined here before you can even begin to associate it with potential transphobia. The word itself is unfortunate in that it implies deception or sneakiness. In reality, is a trans person "stealth" if they just haven't declared to all and sundry that they are a trans individual? Am I stealth if every time time I interact with someone else I just happen not to let them know my medical history? Most average interactions won't even have an appropriate opening or purpose for mentioning anything like it.

And even if this is the case, how is stealth more a reflection of some internal negativity toward being trans than a matter of practical self protection? I don't know about anyone else here but I imagine most of us are no more keen advertise our sexual habits or show off our bodies to the average person than we would our trans status. It is, obviously, a matter crossing into the territory of personal privacy, and guarding that is actually not a manifestation of anything negative unless you're going to criticize society itself for the fact it expects these things to be private. These things have a tendency to be kept private in order to afford individuals more freedom with them. All human societies developed privacy laws of various degrees relating to aspects of sex and gender, and being trans can easily fall under the umbrella of them.

Rmaddy more pushback here. I don't need trans friends as proof of my acceptance of trans people, nor do I need to engage the community or support groups. That said, I've done stuff with the larger LGBT community on and off for 20 years but most of that wasn't about trans issues, rather I was involved with the leathersex community and to some extent in random issues within that community.

On the other hand I've been out with anyone I'm close to for nearly that long while maintaining a closeted approach to people I know to be harmful to me. Now of course, I'm out to the world with the exception of my entirely toxic family and people who would be likely to out me to them.

Quote from: Complete on September 16, 2017, 10:05:28 PM
I personally think that including those of us that are "stealth" under your rubric of "internalized transphobia" is frankly quite hateful and demonstrates an exclusionary tendency which seems to negate the often stated claims of acceptance of diversity. Those of us who have lived our lives from the beginning, from before most of you were out of diapers, should not be subjected to the judgment of those who have no idea what our lives are like, despite paying huge amounts of lip service to how much they wished they could have "gone stealth".

Thank you, Complete for adding your thoughts to this. When I first read Maddy's comments I was a bit taken aback myself but didn't comment because it is obvious that some don't fully recognize the lives and experiences of those of us that do fall outside of what seems to be the most common narrative around here and I didn't want to be a lone voice poking the bear.

I started HRT before my senior year of high school and finished social transition upon graduation in 1973. I never learned how to boy and I've certainly never lived as or been a man and quite frankly, being visibly trans back then wasn't really an option in conjunction with having any sort of normal life or even getting medical treatment. Effectively, I've lived my entire adult life "in stealth" and as you said, this has not been a strategy but rather just the way things have been/are.

I also find the notion that those of us that don't wave flags or march in the streets because we can't deal with our own transsexuality to be specious and I find the attitude and pressure that those of us that are blended into society need to be out and visible moderately offensive and lacking in understanding of how life is for some of us.

Quote from: rmaddy on September 16, 2017, 11:26:30 AM

a.  Non-engagement with trans communities, for example reluctance to join a support group, or attending once, and saying, "I don't think it's worth it because there is no one like me there."

b.  100 FB posts on transgender rights, but no transgender friends.

c.  Stealth

I found all of these descriptors of internalized transphobia more than a little annoying.

First of all, I've never been to a support group, ever. There was no such thing during the time of my life I dealt with being trans and even if there had been and I attended one, there would have been "no one like me there". In 1970, being trans as a fifteen year old was hardly even recognized as a possibility and even in today's demographic, the majority of people going through transition are in their 30's, 40's and 50's with well established lives as men with careers and families so what would have been the point? Even on this forum there are very few like me which has nothing to do with internalized transphobia. It's more about being a statistical anomaly. Even the people I have found here "like me" that I can relate to and have made friends with are forty or more years younger.

So do I have "internalized transphobia"? About some things, maybe I do but it depends on a more nuanced definition of it beyond not having trans friends or being stealth. Just because I don't want people to know my private history, it doesn't mean I hate myself or am not fully cognizant where I came from. Being trans was part of my childhood and adolescence and quite frankly, putting it behind me as an adult is what has worked out best for me so applying your analysis and generalizations across the board just doesn't work that well, IMO.