Quote from: Viktor on September 17, 2017, 09:04:49 PM
Stealth being what? The deliberate "hiding" of one's trans status, or simply keeping one's private business to oneself?

Thank you for asking.  The former.

I did not have in mind the man or woman here who, because he transitioned early in life, or because she transitioned long ago, or because they naturally tended through genetics or aptitude for the process, is not easily recognized as trans.  Some transfolk are simply less recognizable as transfolk, and how or when they disclose is their own business.

I did not have in mind the person who does his or her best not to be noticed because in the context of their society being noticed is tantamount to a death sentence.

I had in mind the poor souls who are so terrified that anyone will recognize them as transgender that they delay transition, move out of town, quit a job, cut themselves off from family and friends and otherwise add to their misery because they think being trans is less than being cis.  I had in mind those who insist that they aren't transgender because they have transitioned.  I had in mind those who think gorgeous women or tall powerful men or women are worth being.

I don't hate those on this path.  I have compassion for them.  I recognize that they are still struggling with something.

Let's not over think this! Society's been putting crap in our heads since the day we were born. It's like dust filtering in, sometimes you have to clean it out. If I could have transitioned when I should have it would have been to be the wife of my best friend. Call it stealth or what ever, but that was the time when I just wanted to be a woman with all of my heart. It just didn't work out for me at that time. If I could have done what Lisa K and others did I wouldn't have advertised it either. In the 70's you just didn't do that if you wanted to live. Them comes the 80's and AIDs, sex with a pre-op MTF=GAY=Leper. This is the kind of things that lurk in the back our minds with those of us with some miles on us. We don't think about it anymore, but it's there, and it whispers at us in a blue moon. Beware of pointing fingers, some people have good reasons to hide.

Definition:   The fear of acknowledgement or acceptance, or dislike of one's self as transgender.

Yes, i do, or did.  Intellectually i finally accepted i was trans, so was done with denial.  but then had anger and sadness.  one of the reasons for the long term denial was that i didn't want to be what i believed were weirdos and or perverts.  I hated the thought of it, and therefore by extension, that part of myself.  i went through a dark period of really contemplating what the point of it all was, and the. worked through it.  So now i accept i'm tg, likely ts, always have been, and probably won't pass.  I'm slowly becoming ok with that.

ashley's analogy of climbing the mountain and some can't make the journey with me,
has helped.

Quote from: Another Nikki on September 17, 2017, 11:53:14 PM
Definition:   The fear of acknowledgement or acceptance, or dislike of one's self as transgender.

Drunk and high right now (and I have the hiccups) and should be nowhere near a keyboard but...

Is dislike of one's self as being transgender considered internalized transphobia because I effing hate that being trans is a part of my history and that it was something I had to go through that was wrong from the beginning that was completely out of my control? As Julia1996 said in this thread https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,168889.msg2026881.html#msg2026881 being trans sucks a$$. I have a lot of resentment about this.

All the sh!t I had to go through, through elementary and high school is something no one should have to endure and if I could go back and change those years or if I could pretend they weren't a part of my history, I'd do so in a heartbeat. Talk about PTSD? I've been through a lot to be accepted as the girl/woman I've always been and while journeys like mine are often idealized, let me tell you that being trans as a kid is no picnic, especially in the 1960's and early 1970's as was my experience.

As an adult female, or as female as medical science can make me, it sucks that I feel obligated to disclose my T to intimate partners to have any sort of meaningful relationship. I hate that not being born female is something I have to deal with or that I grew up as a gender atypical, perceived to be gay boy until I was 18. I hate that my vagina is aftermarket equipment and that I wasn't born with it and it requires maintenance beyond what natal females have to deal with. Even with 40+ years of life after SRS (I was 22) and complete assimilation as just an ordinary cisgender gal into society at large, it still pisses me off to be trans.

The thought of being known as trans is kind of dreadful to me. It assumes I was ever a man/boy in the first place which I've never been and I hate that visual image that it paints in people's minds if they know I wasn't born female. If you'd have known me when I was 16, you'd have perceived me as a girl, behaviorally, psychologically as well as physically because by then I was way beyond androgynous. As a teenager, then young adult and as a fully actualized woman that has lived a full adult life as such, being trans as part of my history is like a noose around my neck.

Is it any wonder I would like to avoid this? If this is internalized transphobia, then count me in.

Outwardly I've always been very accepting of everyone but I have definitely had a few occasions when I've had a voice inside my head screaming at me because I'm all wrong and they aren't. And that feeling breeds a lot more self loathing and then a viscous cycle ensues.

Molly

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Quote from: Another Nikki on September 17, 2017, 11:53:14 PM
Definition:   The fear of acknowledgement or acceptance, or dislike of one's self as transgender.

Okay, misunderstood the definition in my first reply.
Still think I have a touch of it, though, as I do sometimes hate the fact that I'm trans, rather than just being born in the body I should have had. It makes life more complicated than it needs to be, especially in the climate right now. I hate that this part of me could cause me to lose my job, be denied 'privileges' at church that cis people pretty much have as a right, or be affected by the (outward) transphobia that is pretty much a social norm right now, in some places.
But I also accept that it's a part of me, and I know that I will do what I have to in order to be and feel okay. Becoming/ remaining mentally and emotionally healthy is just as important as being physically healthy. It's just one more challenge that I will face in this life, and overcome in my own time.

I'm not really sure I can call what I think as internalized transphobia. I have identified as transgender for 10 years and been on HRT for 2 months and I've never gone out of the house even trying to look female and I feel I will never be able to make myself go full time until HRT has done enough for me to be passable. This isn't so much a fear of being identified as transgender, more a fear of what the worst possible outcome will be. Even before I identified as transgender I was always very sensitive and did not act very boyish if at all. This lead me to be bullied, often time violently, by homophobes who just assumed I was gay throughout my entire time in school up until high-school where I had just learned to keep myself apart from everyone. In the military I have had second-hand experience of transphobia leading to murder multiple times. So, between the physical violence I endured and being indirectly involved in murder cases related to transphobia, every time I get dressed and ready to go out in public I'm just overcome with fear if I see anything that makes me believe I'll be noticed or singled out. There are time I wish I was just a ->-bleeped-<- and then I could go out in public and not care what the bigots say because while people may be uncomfortable with ->-bleeped-<-s, most do not assume they are trying to trick them. In my experience being identified as transgender can easily be life-threatening because some extreme homophobes see it as us trying to trick them into being gay. Maybe you would call that internalized transphobia but I believe it is more a fear of what the worst of humanity will do to me. If I was in a place where I knew I was safe I would come out as transgender in an instant.

Quote from: rmaddy on September 16, 2017, 11:26:30 AM

a.  Non-engagement with trans communities, for example reluctance to join a support group, or attending once, and saying, "I don't think it's worth it because there is no one like me there."

This is me. But the thing is, here in my city the only support group that I know of, is organized by the local LGBT center and...It caters to prostitutes, trans people who have a harder time, who didn't finish high school, ran away from home etc...You know what I mean. And seeing that is super triggering for me, I already feel undesirable at times, and completely insane for doing this. I don't need to get even more negative feelings by witnessing the reality of many trans girls who had less opportunities.

I am also still disliking being trans. I think I'm past the denial, mostly, I know I am trans and can't go back and say I am not and that I am confused...cuz I know it's not true. I just want to move past this point to completely accepting myself and hopefully someday like myself as a trans feminine person.

Well, ok, but it's quite possible that you will only like yourself as a transperson after you have liked someone else as a transperson.  Even self-love requires practice and reference.

@rmaddy sure I can see that POV. Thing is I arrived at recognizing I'm trans at the same time I was learning to be healthy as a human first and breaking down what I could as the essence of being gender x vs y. So one thing I don't love about males on average is aggressiveness. However I don't like that in women any better and I feel the same about passive aggressive behaviors - arguably more common among women. In this case to me healthy means assertive vs aggressive.

That's just one dimension, and there's so many dimensions.

I probably know more trans people than many folks and mostly I encountered them in the course of activism. Just a couple I met along the way and they eventually outed themselves to me (I never read them, even though there were some tells). I'm sure there have been many incidental meetings I don't know about.

To me the essence of not being phobic (i.e. prejudiced) is simply accepting people at face value. That means myself as much as others.

I am having trouble making sense of all the different definitions of transphobia. So l Googled it and got this from HealthLine :  A phobia is an excessive and irrational fear reaction. If you have a phobia, you may experience a deep sense of dread or panic when you encounter the source of your fear. The fear can be of a certain place, situation, or object. Unlike general anxiety disorders, a phobia is usually connected to something specific."
So. Based on this definition, l am happily free of any internalized "transphobia ".
On the otherhand, Wikipedia defines "transphobia" as follows:  Transphobia is a range of negative attitudes, feelings or actions toward transgender or transsexual people, or toward transsexuality. Transphobia can be emotional disgust, fear, violence, anger or discomfort felt or expressed towards people who do not conform to society's gender expectations."
The problem with Wikipedia is that anyone can write the definition. So it seems like a self fulfilling prophecy. Those who suffer from the condition,  define it.
The good news that l do not suffer from this affliction either 😊

Quote from: Complete on September 18, 2017, 09:34:11 PM
I am having trouble making sense of all the different definitions of transphobia. So l Googled it and got this from HealthLine :  A phobia is an excessive and irrational fear reaction. If you have a phobia, you may experience a deep sense of dread or panic when you encounter the source of your fear. The fear can be of a certain place, situation, or object. Unlike general anxiety disorders, a phobia is usually connected to something specific."

Many uses of the -phobia suffix now are not particularly accurate from a textbook definition, but it is such common terminology it could be said the textbooks have simply failed to keep up with culture as definitions change. (Which is an accepted facet of language.) Though I would say transphobia can be taken a little more literal than most, as there are common instances relating to irrational fears about being "tricked" or similar things. (In comparison, any instance of literal homophobia is almost coincidental, as the dominant emotion is more often hatred than fear.) Of course you could also apply the -phobia labels more literally to those who fear that LGBT activism is bringing about a change in society/culture, but I think that might be its own phobia entirely. A quick google brought up Metathesiophobia, but I'm not sure how specific that is.

As you can see in my avatar [yes that's me] I don't pass in any way, shape, or form. I've waited long enough because or for others. I'm not waiting anymore. Trans phobia be damned, and I do have my share of it. It's not going to own me anymore! Surprisingly 99% of the people I know or have met out and about have been fine with it. When I finally got some women's clothes and wore them in public I was terrified. Once I did it and didn't die from it I couldn't wear my men's clothes any more! That was a real situation because I'd rather have gasoline poured me than wear them ever again. So I've just had to get past the fear, not so easy for me. It may not look it in my avatar but when I was a teen I was very feminine and got picked on EVERYDAY. That lingers with me to this very day. I also know that some problems have passed me by, also the good things of being young. I don't have to be 'pretty' now, don't have to worry with dating . That's where phobia hurts the worst, it makes you afraid to go out, afraid your constantly in danger. From all I've seen and heard the real danger is in our own minds, and when intimate with a guy. The most danger comes if your pre-op and he finds out the hard way, you might die then, violently.  But out in pubic you'll get some stares or funny looks and a few people will avoid you, but most ignore it. Internalized transphobia has been the hardest for me to deal with not other people. I didn't even realize I had any until I started my journey. One thing that has helped me a lot is knowing what a phobia is and how they get mis-named. A phobia is a fear, what we deal with is disgust. We're not afraid of ourselves, we're disgusted with our selves. A spider crawls across the floor: A- you step on it B- you run away  A- is disgust, you clean it up B- is phobia, you run away. Disgust is what we have to deal with not phobia. People that are disgusted want to kill and clean-up, including our own selves and that's where suicide comes into it. The hard part to get past is not being disgusted with your own self. What you don't like in others you wont like in your own self. Once you get past that you can come out and live! It's wonderful out here 

I'd like to add an addendum to my rather intoxicated post/rant above so people don't get the wrong idea. I am a happy person and I've had a really remarkable life. The things I wrote focused on the parts of being trans that I dislike but this is only an infinitesimally small part of my thought processes and something well below my normal level of consciousness unless I do stop to think about it as this thread made me do.

I acknowledge how very fortunate I've been and to have had supportive and understanding parents at a time in history when such things were practically unheard of. I was incredibly lucky to start hormones at 17 and it has been a life saving blessing to have lived my entire adult life on my own terms. Being trans has not held me back in any way, shape or form and in fact has afforded me a wealth of opportunities and good fortune that otherwise would not have been possible.

While there is undoubtedly some baggage that comes along with being trans, even for someone like me that transitioned as a teenager, the alternatives were much worse and there's little question I would still be around today had things not turned out for me the way they did.

I have nothing to whine about. Yes, at times I do have some negative emotions about it and at times have questioned why I just wasn't born female or why I had to go through any of this but overall in the grand scheme of things, I couldn't be happier or more content with the life I've had.

I'll make a mental note to myself to not post again after spending an evening at the pub because it's too easy to give the wrong impression although being to air my feelings and examine them in the daylight made them seem kind of silly and inconsequential. I still don't like being trans but this is internalized and self-contained as it is not something people know about me, however, I wouldn't go so far as to call this transphobia. That seems a bit extreme.

Quote from: rmaddy on September 18, 2017, 08:02:54 PM
Well, ok, but it's quite possible that you will only like yourself as a transperson after you have liked someone else as a transperson.  Even self-love requires practice and reference.

I do have a couple of friends who are trans. But in all honestly I don't identify with them much, I feel like the fact that we are both trans isn't enough to form a close relationship unless you have other things in common.


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Lisa, my rant was pointed at the younger ones who don't have a clue what it was like back then. We all have to rant every now and then, and a drunken rant's the best! Charlie Nicki, you've got it! You don't have to be close, and their being trans doesn't matter, you'll be fine with your own self. My problem's been anger at myself for not finding a way to get where I needed to 40yrs. ago. It only helps a little to know that things were so bad a home then that being trans was a side issue.

Quote from: Lisa_K on September 19, 2017, 03:04:49 AM
I'd like to add an addendum to my rather intoxicated post/rant above so people don't get the wrong idea. I am a happy person and I've had a really remarkable life. The things I wrote focused on the parts of being trans that I dislike but this is only an infinitesimally small part of my thought processes and something well below my normal level of consciousness unless I do stop to think about it as this thread made me do.

I acknowledge how very fortunate I've been and to have had supportive and understanding parents at a time in history when such things were practically unheard of. I was incredibly lucky to start hormones at 17 and it has been a life saving blessing to have lived my entire adult life on my own terms. Being trans has not held me back in any way, shape or form and in fact has afforded me a wealth of opportunities and good fortune that otherwise would not have been possible.

While there is undoubtedly some baggage that comes along with being trans, even for someone like me that transitioned as a teenager, the alternatives were much worse and there's little question I would still be around today had things not turned out for me the way they did.

I have nothing to whine about. Yes, at times I do have some negative emotions about it and at times have questioned why I just wasn't born female or why I had to go through any of this but overall in the grand scheme of things, I couldn't be happier or more content with the life I've had.

I'll make a mental note to myself to not post again after spending an evening at the pub because it's too easy to give the wrong impression although being to air my feelings and examine them in the daylight made them seem kind of silly and inconsequential. I still don't like being trans but this is internalized and self-contained as it is not something people know about me, however, I wouldn't go so far as to call this transphobia. That seems a bit extreme.

I read both your "pub post" and this one, and I think they both made valid points.

As I tend to verbally process, I usually read the posts of others as if that is what they are doing as well.  Each post represents a mental snapshot of which the total picture is composed.

Quote from: Charlie Nicki on September 19, 2017, 06:17:59 AM
I do have a couple of friends who are trans. But in all honestly I don't identify with them much, I feel like the fact that we are both trans isn't enough to form a close relationship unless you have other things in common.


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Of course you don't have to be friends with people just because they are transgender.  The benefit of transgender friendships is that we see reflections of ourselves in others.  My best transgender friend is someone with whom I share a philosophical/intellectual bent, but otherwise, we don't have any common interests.  Nevertheless, the fact that she is transgender means that she understands something that almost no one else in my social circles does.  It's hard to put a value on that.

Quote from: rmaddy on September 19, 2017, 05:06:34 PM

Of course you don't have to be friends with people just because they are transgender.  The benefit of transgender friendships is that we see reflections of ourselves in others.  My best transgender friend is someone with whom I share a philosophical/intellectual bent, but otherwise, we don't have any common interests.  Nevertheless, the fact that she is transgender means that she understands something that almost no one else in my social circles does.  It's hard to put a value on that.

I feel like being trans is a road that you go through alone. Cis people don't really get it, and even if you meet a trans person, chances are that their road was completely different than yours and they're either ahead or behind. It's very rare to find someone who is in the exact same stage you are. Finally, if you are lucky enough to find all of that, then it comes down to personality and if you 2 can relate. So yeah it's mostly each one of us writing our own story.

Very different than being any other letter of the LGBT community, I say that as someone who has lived as a gay man for 15 years. You just have to go to a club, or to an app, or even to someone's house and you can very easily find someone who shares your struggles, fears, interests, etc...


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Quote from: Charlie Nicki on September 19, 2017, 05:47:04 PM

Very different than being any other letter of the LGBT community, I say that as someone who has lived as a gay man for 15 years. You just have to go to a club, or to an app, or even to someone's house and you can very easily find someone who shares your struggles, fears, interests, etc...

I'll take your word for it, but it surprises me that it is different for you.  If this is too personal, please ignore or tell me so:

Do you think that is because there are simply more gay men around so that you are bound to run into one with matched interests, or is the sense of identification stronger in you the case of sexual orientation?