There seems to be in-balance in the views expressed by feminists. Having " Googled " the subject I am now rather confused as to why there is so little debate about Trans-Men by feminists. Are feminists more accepting of Trans-Men ? Do they think of them as " the ultimate butch dike " ? and are not seen as a threat to their ideal world view ? Much like lesbians where; in the old days, considered more socially acceptable than gay men.




Paula, X.

I'm a feminist, hang with feminists and belong to feminist organizations. I have never heard a feminist say anything bad about trans men or trans people in general.

Feminism is equality and the only threats to it are those forces that would support inequality.

Quote from: RobynD on May 01, 2017, 01:04:19 PM
I'm a feminist, hang with feminists and belong to feminist organizations. I have never heard a feminist say anything bad about trans men or trans people in general.

Feminism is equality and the only threats to it are those forces that would support inequality.

Hi Robyn,

I think Paula is talking about that small group of feminists known as TERFs.

http://transadvocate.com/you-might-be-a-terf-if_n_10226.htm

Take care,
Paige

Thank you, Paige. Yes, that's it TERF's ? WTF !




Paula, X.

Thanks ! i had thought about that but to be truthful, i have never encountered one so i do hope they remain a small group. Their argument is so full of holes you could use it to strain things.

I haven't met any terf's personally except from a few online, and I've heard some of their thoughts on trans men as well as trans women over some time now. They're kind of a smaller branch of radical feminism, and quite detached from other kinds of feminism. As far as what I can gather from what I've heard, they in general think of trans men as "gender traitors" meaning as women who "betray" other members of their birth sex, and more or less join the patriarchy. But that they don't see trans men as threats to them (unlike how they see trans women), and some seem to also want to include trans men in women's only spaces and such. Many terf's seem to not believe in ->-bleeped-<- or dysphoria being real at all, so they see all trans people as their birth sexes, but like "lesser" versions... it's not very nice. I try to stay away from such conversations with them, it never leads anywhere good.
(I definitely do NOT agree with their opinions, but I find it interesting to learn about, maybe in a sense like morbid curiosity, just to clarify.)

Trans men are often erased by TERFs, from what I have seen. Either they are ignored and never acknowledged, or they are considered "fake trans" -- I've seen trans men dismissed as just "confused". Alternatively, like SeptagonScars, they may be seen as traitors, or people who just wanted to cheat their way out of the discrimination women face. Dysphoria and gender identity are usually not even considered part of the trans experience. They act like it is totally fetishistic or based solely on the need to intrude upon cis women's spaces.
Generally there is much less hatred directed towards them; trans women are moreso the focus of TERF bigotry.

I have also done some research into this branch of radical feminism (I prefer not to use the term "TERF" as I feel it is somewhat pejorative). Like all political views, it exists on a spectrum. Some have harsher views than others. I have interacted with some people online who are slightly left of moderate, but pretty far off from complete radicalism. They have been polite to me, all things considered. I found them to be reasonable people with some good questions and shared my experiences with them. They were mostly parents concerned about the very sudden rise in children being diagnosed with gender dysphoria, and concerned also with their own children coming out as trans. None of them seemed outright cruel. They were all cordial to me and allowed me space to share my perspective.

Many of them had daughters who were FTM who were either transitioning, or had identified as male briefly before desisting. The general belief among them had been that the stress of puberty and harsh gender roles for natal females was what was causing so many young women to have gender dysphoria. Whether or not this is true is, of course, a matter of conjecture. Like others have said, many of them saw FTM individuals as "giving up" on being women because of female patriarchal standards. They were concerned about the role that Asperger's Syndrome played in FTM identities, and use of gender-stereotypical behavior to determine if a person is truly "in the wrong body."

But this is just a small sliver of the entirety of feminism, which has about as many different branches and offshoots as Christianity. For the most part, feminists are fine with trans men.

I think these perspectives are good to take in (the more well-thought-out and reasonable ones, I mean) because it allows you to be confronted with those who disagree with you and understand where others are coming from. Empathy is like a lost art form. People get so caught up in their own views that they demonize entire groups of people without knowing their histories. They are still people, after all. Like you and me, they have people that they love in their life, they feel pain, and they fear uncertainty. This is why I don't say TERF, because it dismisses the very really questions that these people have with the utterance of that one word... "TERF." It's basically a slur to me.

Anyway, hope that answers your question lol

I don't care what acronym you use or don't you.  Exclusionary feminism/masculinism is toxic.  No one else has the right to determine the legitimacy of your identity.

Quote from: rmaddy on October 06, 2017, 10:46:14 PM
I don't care what acronym you use or don't you.  Exclusionary feminism/masculinism is toxic.  No one else has the right to determine the legitimacy of your identity.

I don't think I was asking anyone to care about my preferred terminology. I was just sharing my experience.

This thread is not the place for us to debate this, though. I was just answering the OP's question.

Thank you all very much for your replies.

I have an itch and is cis shaped. Cis women just seem to have an ability to simply forget about Trans man. Trans man do not appear to play any role in Feminism. They are simply ignored.
Cis Feminists loathe Trans women. Lesbians are no better.( As a lesbian, this is hard to take ) It's just a feeling I have that; like syphilis, Trans Women do not belong in any section of modern society. Same as it ever was...


Paula, X.

Well a feminist will likely have a live and let live mindset. Some may see it as a great thing for one to be themselves while others simply couldnt care either way. Many see that the gender spectrum is now being explored and many seem to like that.

The TERF on the other hand isnt much of a feminist in regards to wanting to empower women and be an equal in society. It is, in my opinion a very dangerous political identity. Here is a TERF in a nut shell:

- They like to play victim. Their belief appears to be that anyone who was born with a penis is inherently bad and them must forever feel ashamed about it. They also beleive that if you are born with a vagina and live forever as a cis female you are inherently a victim. Now, it is true sexism exists (ex, imagine if Hillary Clinton had a video of her bragging about grabbing men by the penis because she had money and power, people would lose their minds and she would have been lucky to even carry 3 states) but instead of trying to combat it through education and learning on what to do better they decide to make sob stories about themselves.

-A TERF really does seem to have a selective paranoia that trans-women are there to sexually attack a cis-woman or are trying to somehow destroy the female gender with our privileged... ?......I know it is confusing mindset, but somehow us transitioning to being women on the outside too is hurting cis-women whereas to a TERF a trans-man is not looked at as evil but still looked at in a negative view, that they are transitioning only because society told them too and they are traitors and cowards. Yup, that is really how they think.

-TERFS also tend to have a very funny way of breaking the gender binary. It is ok if you are AMAB and like feminine things and such, however the idea of HRT or look and present in a manner that does not still have your birth gender sticking out is still a big issue for them to lose their collective minds, or to say anything that could allow one to truly identify with the gender they are is thrown out the door. Estrogen is a god sent for me that has worked better for me then any anti-depression or what not. A TERF's opinion is that if I need medication to control dysphoria then it should not be the stuff that does work (hrt) but a host of anti-psychotics or anti-depressants, the stuff that never worked for this. But they do not care or see it that way, instead they would rather me be medicated with pills to make me a zombie male then a happy female all the while telling me all about my ''privilege'' I never asked to have in the first place.

-TERFS tend to be very nasty and at times hyprocritcal. Example one is a lady named Cathy Brennan. She has such a powerful hatred of trans people that she will dox a trans people regardless of age, yes both adults and kids basically to make their lives harder. All in the name of hating while patting herself on the back for, well Idk. I have yet to see her do anything at all to make life great for women, but plenty of awful to make life for trans people miserable. Example 2 is a girl (?) I went to school with years ago. Just less then 2 years ago she told me plans of wanting to transition to living as a male as she felt that way her whole life and ect. Then earilier this year she was calling me and all trans people mental cases and how she is ''comfortable'' living as a female then giving me a lecture that basically summed up the TERF mindset ''If I can find a way to live in birth gender then so can you''. I am unsure if this will last because upon becoming a self described radical TERF she seems more hateful and miserable then ever when we chatted. But granted that is her cross to carry as I could care less if she did become male or if she got ran over by a bus, she means nothing to me now.

To sum it up, a TERF is someone who uses their gender as a card to state that they are and always will be a victim and if we do not adhere to their mindset we are all anti-women. Whereas I think we should do more to empower women and do so by not blaming males for everything. Granted, if a man attacks, , discriminates or sexually over powers a female (like rape, or cat calling) they need to be called out and shamed yes, among other things to happen to them. But in a terfs mind anyone with a penis or born with one is bad. Basically, the TERF mindset is a mindset made of concession and a victim mentality while not doing a damn thing to make equality happen or to break down the binary more so people can find their true-selves.

Thank you very much, SailorMars1994. Very informative and educational 

Maybe they just need to get out more 



Paula, X.

There have been women's groups that accept trans men while excluding trans women. The best know example would be Michfest. I  don't bring that up intending flamebait, it's just a fact that the organizer established a DADT policy regarding trans women (i.e. if you passed you got in so long as you didn't tell anyone  you were trans).

As weird as this seems, I think there was an underlying logic. At the time (probably still today) many trans men had been part of the lesbian community and as such there were personal ties and trust. I've known some lesbian organizations that started out open to self-identified women that later excluded trans women while accepting trans men.

It's all good. The mainstream of feminism today is intersectional and consider us to be allies.

SadieBlake: Yes, I would say that, too add, intersectional feminists seem to be very inclusive of both trans men and trans women. However I don't agree with them on much of anything, but that's beside the point. There are a lot of different sub-sections of feminism and as far as I know, most of them seem to be at least okay with trans people if not much more, with the exception of terf's.

Allie24: I'm aware that the term "terf" is not well liked, and I've heard some being more okay with being referred to as "gender critical feminists". I'm okay with either/any term as long as it gets the point across. Also, I didn't mean that one shouldn't talk to them about their views, I was merely giving a slight warning cause quite many trans people who have tried that have only left the conversation feeling devastated or at least emotionally drained, myself included. But of course that's very individual and it's up to everyone to do as they please.

Hi Paula,

I recently found an article in the Stanford Encyclopaedia of Philosophy that, in part, considers the issue you have raised about Transmen - specifically as it relates to a perceived difference between Butch women and Transmen, and feminist views on the subject. The article is called "Feminist Perspectives on Trans Issues", and can be found:
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/feminism-trans/#PhenTransEmb
It is quite a long article and a very interesting read, but the section in question is subtitled "7. Butch/FTM Border Wars and Border Zone Dwellers".

The article raises some other interesting questions, and I'm considering discussing these and my own queries in another post, but I'm not sure which topic section to post under, (here in 'Politics' or elsewhere,) because, as I see it, while the issues do have social and political ramifications, they're mainly concerned with how we think about ourselves and others.

Quote from: paula lesley on May 01, 2017, 08:46:20 AM
There seems to be in-balance in the views expressed by feminists. Having " Googled " the subject I am now rather confused as to why there is so little debate about Trans-Men by feminists. Are feminists more accepting of Trans-Men ? Do they think of them as " the ultimate butch dike " ? and are not seen as a threat to their ideal world view ? Much like lesbians where; in the old days, considered more socially acceptable than gay men.

Yes, it's very interesting that a movement that is apparently about equality has little to say about the transman, aside from the ever-vocal TERFs, that is. But I will hazard a guess - being a transman is considered to be a step up the ladder toward more automatic and guaranteed privilege than they once had (I disagree), and yet they share the female's direct experience in their past and so they cannot quite be lumped in with the majority of "men" or maleness in general whom are currently the main target or enemy figure of feminists.

I can't say what they are thinking or feeling - but given my experiences with certain female-favouring or feminist family members, the reaction to transition is largely silence and/or being ignored, and my hunch is that this is the treatment afforded to one who leaves the "sisterhood" of women - the automatic sort of bonding women tend to share with each other and the prevalent preference they seem to have for the company of their own sex. You are obviously no longer one of them, nor obviously desire to be, but they know you know what they know about women and femaleness, too. I think this makes some of them rather uncomfortable.

In my own experience, women tend to find instinctual comfort in the knowledge that another person is also a woman; whether that's assumption that she will not be a threat, or that she will immediately understand certain topics or experiences, or perhaps share similar values based on those experiences means you can approach with a degree of confidence not found when your counterpart is a male. Also in my experience, transitioning to male in appearance is enough to cause people who know full well one's female past to begin to ignore it or dismiss its relevancy. It seems to have a powerful effect on others; even if they are hell-bent on fighting the idea you're a man to the end, they will still be swayed in part by what their eyes are telling them, and the subconscious effect that has upon their reactions can be surprising. Given this, it doesn't surprise me feminism doesn't have much to say about us. We were once a known quantity and understandable, but following transition the waters become murky? And so we are left alone to be that unquantifiable anomaly. A case of that, perhaps. Where there has been some vocal opposition from feminists, it is usually ideological in nature, again making me suspect that many feminists view maleness or masculinity as a problem, (or maybe just THE problem; ever since feminism decided to adopt the game plan that women are universally oppressed and therefore the oppressor must be male... in contrast to its early days when it was more about winning the right to vote etc.) and it follows an 'apparent' woman who becomes a man has not only favored it but discarded the feminine completely for it. Would current feminism not naturally find itself at an ideological impasse with such a person?   

I've not actually heard many views on trans men from feminists, more on trans women than men. I know some TERFs don't like us because they see us taking the 'easy way out' or something by becoming men and not embracing being a woman blah blah blah. Obviously people talking like that don't know anything about being trans in general. The disgusting hate and ignorance towards trans women is blatant regarding TERFs and some feminists whilst trans guys are mostly ignored and forgotten about.

From what I heard about Trans men from feminists, the majority of them were TERFs or/and butch sapphics who believed trans men were masculine women wounded by the sexist society who didn't accept to suffer misogyny. Anyway,  that's big bull->-bleeped-<-,  guys.


Anyway... feminism usually ignores trans people and so the reproductive rights of trans men are very obscure.


Also it's funny that some trans men reproduce sexism on women, anyway men are men.

Ya'll know what? This will probably sound like BS but what the hell is in a Label? TERF? I really don't keep up on all the terms and labels.

My whole point is, "Who cares?" If you are happy with who your are then screw anyone that tries to make you pissed off or feel bad and that even includes me. But I would never do that though. I don't want to use you though. I would never do that to you or anyone else.

I can't be a militant feminist because I love feminism too much. I love being a girl. I can not deny it.

OK so equal pay? Every job that I have had has been equal from Military to driving trucks to what my BF is and so on. Now MY employees make more than I do. I can dress in a skirt and answer my phone and dispatch them while in the AC or Heat while they are dealing with the weather and I pay them even ore than what I make per truck. And yes I have some LGBTs, women and men working for me and they all get paid equally.

But with all that aside, I don't thing militant feminist will ever view anyone as nothing more tha another feminist.

To me, trans men are men and nothing more or nothing less. Militant feminist may hate you but I don't. To me trans women are women and I personally embrace feminism and they hate me so... I don't care about that either.

So how about a Trans woman's view of Trans men? We are different than our born identities right? I love you guys. Never ever let anyone own you. That includes political parties, feminist or anyone else either, not even me.

Look if you are a man then you are a man. I am a woman and I am a woman. Yes there are non binaries but...

Look this may sound so messed up but forget about any groups. Be an individual and be you8r own self.

But just be you. No apologies and no regrets. You don't need a "herd" to keep you safe. That is all on you. But they will try to use you so don't let them.