So I came across a video on Youtube about Transmen talking about male privilege, I found it interesting as I disagreed with all of their points, now me personally, I feel like women have it way easier and that there is no "Male Privilege" as a matter fact as a black male, it just makes it 10 times worse in my experience. I'd love to hear everyone elses oppinion and I'd also be willing to give mine. I'll leave a link to the video, hopefully it will work.

Off the top of my mind:

-Getting paid more than a woman for doing the same job.
-Being able to walk alone/at night/being drunk at parties without having a constant fear for your security and integrity.
-Not being expected to look perfect and pretty all the time, hence being able to wear whatever, not having people comment on your weight/hair constantly.
-Being promiscuous without getting a bad rep for it.
-Being able to be moody/grumpy without being called a bitch or just dismissed as being too difficult/emotional.
-Not having men belittle your intelligence /skills in general.
-As men get older they are usually perceived as more interesting/attractive, while it's the opposite for women.                                         

Women do have privilege in other areas, but male privilege is there for sure.

Quote from: Charlie Nicki on October 09, 2017, 04:36:44 AM
Off the top of my mind:

-Getting paid more than a woman for doing the same job.
-Being able to walk alone/at night/being drunk at parties without having a constant fear for your security and integrity.
-Not being expected to look perfect and pretty all the time, hence being able to wear whatever, not having people comment on your weight/hair constantly.
-Being promiscuous without getting a bad rep for it.
-Being able to be moody/grumpy without being called a bitch or just dismissed as being too difficult/emotional.
-Not having men belittle your intelligence /skills in general.
-As men get older they are usually perceived as more interesting/attractive, while it's the opposite for women.                                         

Women do have privilege in other areas, but male privilege is there for sure.

1. I do happen to agree on that
2. Who says men don't happen to be afraid to walk alone at night, I hear that often and to me its not a good arguement, especially being a black man. Women can be afraid but men can't or aren't suppose to I see.
3.I give you that.
4. I think that goes both ways I have had plenty of girls ask me why I am being such a dick and I also have issues expressing my emotions, why because of being told to man up and to quit being a bitch all the time and some girls even call dudes gay for being to emotional, so instead we hold anger in and suffer mentally. Oh and we can't cry but women can cry all day long and people will comfort them but if a man does it, you're a bitch, a p***y.
5.I could argue the same for women, men stay getting called stupid by women and they have this notion that all men are the same.
6. Iffy on that last one.

You're right both genders equally face issues but femminist act like men go through nothing.

People who moves into a new area are usually paid more than people born and raised there. Is it a 'relocators' privilege, or just a result of the simple fact that relocators need more money and are willing to work harder and take more risks?

Don't forget, while women are paid less, they somehow happen to have more money to spend on retail... Where did that money come from?

I don't buy that argument...

Others arguments seem also a little superstitious and stereotyping.


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Quote from: Brandon on October 09, 2017, 04:46:17 AM
2. Who says men don't happen to be afraid to walk alone at night, I hear that often and to me its not a good arguement, especially being a black man. Women can be afraid but men can't or aren't suppose to I see.

What I'm saying is there's a way bigger chance for a woman to be assaulted/raped etc than a man.

There's another thread an FTM guy made about all he learnt growing as a girl and half of the things he said was basically that women learn they need to be aware of their surroundings and security pretty much all the time. Especially around men. This does not happen with guys. I am MTF but have been living as a guy for 29 years, and of course I need to take care of myself and growing up my mom always warned me to be careful about things, but nowhere near as often or as intense as any of the girls I've known in my life. Most women I've known don't like walking by themselves at night, avoid taking a cab by themselves, avoid being in a group where they are vastly outnumbered by men they don't know, etc...The list goes on and on.

Quote from: Brandon on October 09, 2017, 04:46:17 AM5.I could argue the same for women, men stay getting called stupid by women and they have this notion that all men are the same.

I've heard countless women complain about being "mansplained". Even here, MTF women complain that as soon as they transition, it's like they suddenly became idiots in the eyes of men. Have never heard of guys complaining about the same, nor have I heard the term "womansplained".

i haven't seen any evidence that women are paid less to do the same job unless they're actually working fewer hours--which is not the same thing. 

most other things that are considered "privilege" on one side tend to be broad generalizations which have opposite reflections on the other side, a similar advantage for every disadvantage and vice versa.  that's going to happen when you have groups that occupy two different roles in society and have two different sets of expectations placed on them--as well as naturally distinct behaviors and things one will be more likely to do than the other in the same situations.  there are always exceptions and overlaps, though, and things one person sees as privilege will be seen as a disadvantage by someone else. 

so i don't think it's fair to say that one gender automatically comes with a set of privileges built-in, but speaking purely in generalized terms, i do think women actually have more resources afforded to them these days (at least here in the states; i don't claim to know how things work in other countries).  and this is coming from someone who has been disadvantaged most of their life and had to live most of that time as a female.  the disadvantages in my life did not come from being female, but from being isolated and poor.  and i think those things will affect someone's "privilege" in life much more than the state of their physical body. 

there ARE disadvantages to being a woman, generally speaking.  but especially since trying to make a social transition, i've noticed that--for lack of better wording--women are more likely to have opportunities handed to them and be given assistance when needed.  there were things i realized i would have to give up on, especially in terms of receiving any kind of support, when i transitioned away from being a woman.  if a woman needs a shelter, a therapy group, financial assistance, or even just a social group, it's a lot easier to find one directed toward women than it is to find any such things aimed at men or even just aimed at everyone.  there are a lot of things specifically dedicated to helping women, particularly mothers.  women who have not had children/are not pregnant are not quite as lucky in that sense, and face their own set of disadvantages.  but things like counseling and housing/financial assistance, social groups, even contests and scholarships are still made more available to women than to men.  because basically, a combination of biology and society says that women (and children) should be protected.  men are more disposable, and it shows in how they are treated.  women also have the advantage of being allowed more flexibility within their roles, and i don't know how recent of a development this is, but women are afforded a lot more variety in how they can express themselves and what careers they can pursue without ridicule or threat of violence.  and i've heard people make the claim that this is because masculinity is favored over femininity, but that just isn't true.  if it were, then feminine women would be treated just as poorly as feminine men.  the reality is just that people like for everyone to fit into a "box", to comply with the gender roles expected of them--but that women's gender roles have expanded, while men's have not.  at least not nearly as much as women's have. 

tl;dr: both sides have "privileges" of a sort as well as disadvantages, but i think women today have slightly more in their corner in terms of social advantages. 

I definitely believe there is male privilege.  I deal with it all the time. I made a thread about being talked down to and mansplained. And it makes no difference if you know more about something than a guy does, he's still going to mansplain it to you. Guys will listen to what another guy is saying but they dismiss or ignore women. I can be talking to my dad or brother and they look at me and nod but I can tell they aren't listening to a word I'm saying. And guys sometimes act like a woman is intruding if she tries to comment on something they are talking about. More than once when my grandpa is talking to my dad or brother and I make a comment he has said " Julia, men are talking. Make yourself useful and get me a drink".  Lot's of women here will tell you about having men treat them like they are total idiots. This is just one example of male privilege.

Here's an interesting article about racism and how people experience it when transitioning.

Becoming a Black Man
http://www.colorlines.com/articles/becoming-black-man

Hey Julia, would you listen to anything your brother would said on fashion or makeup? Would your grandpa jump into a conversation between you and your mother on some female subject?

And generally speaking, your experiences are indicative of your family, not necessarily are a general rule


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Btw, I believe there's some male privilege. I think it comes with motherhood, physical strength of males, and their lack of desire to do domestic chores and actively participate in mundane day-to-day activities around the house.

I think those though are asymmetrically compensated with more support given to women from their partners, higher flexibility and protection in society and ability to have more pampering and fun.


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I also believe that trans-people upon transition lose their part of the privilege, yet don't automatically gain the other gender privileges automatically (both for MTF and FTM). Also, if you don't fit into a stereotypical box, even being cis might limit amount of your privileges (i.e. physically weak male won't be considered worthy of an opinion unless they have proven in the past they had brains - they will be overlooked similarly (if not worse) as women. Equally, women who cannot pull the feminine beauty look at least occasionally - lack some serious tools in their tool box.

So, your average MTF might be on equal footing with those less attractive women; your average stereotypical ftm might be on a lower end of the society totem pole because they might lack the physical  body size.


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Quote from: Charlie Nicki on October 09, 2017, 06:33:20 AM
What I'm saying is there's a way bigger chance for a woman to be assaulted/raped etc than a man.

There's another thread an FTM guy made about all he learnt growing as a girl and half of the things he said was basically that women learn they need to be aware of their surroundings and security pretty much all the time. Especially around men. This does not happen with guys. I am MTF but have been living as a guy for 29 years, and of course I need to take care of myself and growing up my mom always warned me to be careful about things, but nowhere near as often or as intense as any of the girls I've known in my life. Most women I've known don't like walking by themselves at night, avoid taking a cab by themselves, avoid being in a group where they are vastly outnumbered by men they don't know, etc...The list goes on and on.

I've heard countless women complain about being "mansplained". Even here, MTF women complain that as soon as they transition, it's like they suddenly became idiots in the eyes of men. Have never heard of guys complaining about the same, nor have I heard the term "womansplained".

See, now from the girls I know they have no issue being independent and doing things on their own ans being out all hours of the night, even at my job, sometimes the manager will leave and I have had female co workers that would be stuck waiting and I would ask if they needed me to wait with them and they would say no, my own sister is very independent and has no issues going late at night as a matter of fact she was always out, my mom actually gets on me more about being out at night then she ever did with my sister and I am 20 years old, my mom doesn't like me walking at night either and basically said because of me identifying as male and being black that's not safe but I personally don't feel anyone should walk alone at night by themselves, male or female and see the assumption is still that men can't or shouldn't be afraid.

I think women do have a tendency to do stupid things and I am one of those guys that have called women stupid but I have actual legitment reason for that, now as far as the other men that call women dumb, I am not entirely sure but for me atleast, I have my reasons.

The stats regarding less-pay-for-same-work are largely misquoted by politicians (fortunately). There is a discrepancy, but it is a comparatively smaller one and in some studies even within the margin of error. The statistic often quoted placing female wages around 70%-80% of male wages is a misstatement, as the actual stat is roughly women make 70%-80% of men's total income, not for the same job for the same hours at the same skill. That stat is usually placed in the 90% range (which while it should be 0%, is a far cry from 30%). The income gap is attributed to the disproportionate number of men in higher paying non-executive jobs (hazard pay usually), the number of men serving in executive positions, and that women often work fewer hours on average (are more likely work part time period, plus take longer leaves). I think the biggest true issue here goes to the second point in the list, in the number of men versus women serving in executive positions. The other two are largely individual, but it is a huge cultural red flag with the executive balance. I won't bother linking here, but politifacts, forbes, and countless sites have articles covering all of this from various angles and with too many different numbers to begin to get into, but in general the wage gap just isn't the end-all cultural dilemma it is made out to be and I worry largely distracts from the bigger issues regarding women in the workplace.

Anyway, that aside...

I've always been a little confused by the notion of male privilege since I never really experienced it myself. (Partly because I didn't do anything, partly because even at "most male" I was never the slightest bit alpha.) I have seen at least one major instance involving it, but then I've also seen a handful of instances involving female privilege. In the first case, it was involving a classic southern US "good ol' boys club" with divorce lawyers and a judge screwing my mom over royally. But then in general, it is often thought that women get the better deal in divorce settlements, particularly custody hearings, so I don't know if this is the best example. For an instance of the female privilege, well, recently my little sister was in a car accident that was 100% her fault. But she's a cute little white girl, and so she walked away without the slightest repercussion. She wasn't even trying to get out of it, it happened entirely on its own. This is pretty common around here apparently. (Though at the same time, is also a bit patronizing.)

For the most part I believe that there is some inherent privilege along with some inherent bad about being both male and female, and also that it may vary heavily based on race/ethnicity/religion/etc. Playing into Brandon's original post, there are countless negatives that come along with being specifically a black male in the US. Cultural preconceptions leading to higher incarceration rates, suspicion even in the most innocent circumstances, starker unemployment, and so forth, which are issues that largely do not extend to black women, at least not to the same degree. (Make no mistake, if a black male had been in my sister's place, he probably would have spent the night in county lock-up.)

An example of bias against men that has always rankled me is the way people assume that all guys are predators with children. I love kids, and kids love me. But because of how I presented myself in life as male, any interaction I had with children I had to be extremely careful about. (Often this meant playing it in such a way that made it seem as though I was inconvenienced but being a good sport about it if children spoke to me, when in reality I loved the interaction and found them adorable.) This simply isn't an issue for those presenting as a woman, which I always found very unfair.

Quote from: Roll on October 09, 2017, 01:01:12 PM
The stats regarding less-pay-for-same-work are largely misquoted by politicians (fortunately). There is a discrepancy, but it is a comparatively smaller one and in some studies even within the margin of error. The statistic often quoted placing female wages around 70%-80% of male wages is a misstatement, as the actual stat is roughly women make 70%-80% of men's total income, not for the same job for the same hours at the same skill. That stat is usually placed in the 90% range (which while it should be 0%, is a far cry from 30%). The income gap is attributed to the disproportionate number of men in higher paying non-executive jobs (hazard pay usually), the number of men serving in executive positions, and that women often work fewer hours on average (are more likely work part time period, plus take longer leaves). I think the biggest true issue here goes to the second point in the list, in the number of men versus women serving in executive positions. The other two are largely individual, but it is a huge cultural red flag with the executive balance. I won't bother linking here, but politifacts, forbes, and countless sites have articles covering all of this from various angles and with too many different numbers to begin to get into, but in general the wage gap just isn't the end-all cultural dilemma it is made out to be and I worry largely distracts from the bigger issues regarding women in the workplace.

Anyway, that aside...

I've always been a little confused by the notion of male privilege since I never really experienced it myself. (Partly because I didn't do anything, partly because even at "most male" I was never the slightest bit alpha.) I have seen at least one major instance involving it, but then I've also seen a handful of instances involving female privilege. In the first case, it was involving a classic southern US "good ol' boys club" with divorce lawyers and a judge screwing my mom over royally. But then in general, it is often thought that women get the better deal in divorce settlements, particularly custody hearings, so I don't know if this is the best example. For an instance of the female privilege, well, recently my little sister was in a car accident that was 100% her fault. But she's a cute little white girl, and so she walked away without the slightest repercussion. She wasn't even trying to get out of it, it happened entirely on its own. This is pretty common around here apparently. (Though at the same time, is also a bit patronizing.)

For the most part I believe that there is some inherent privilege along with some inherent bad about being both male and female, and also that it may vary heavily based on race/ethnicity/religion/etc. Playing into Brandon's original post, there are countless negatives that come along with being specifically a black male in the US. Cultural preconceptions leading to higher incarceration rates, suspicion even in the most innocent circumstances, starker unemployment, and so forth, which are issues that largely do not extend to black women, at least not to the same degree. (Make no mistake, if a black male had been in my sister's place, he probably would have spent the night in county lock-up.)

An example of bias against men that has always rankled me is the way people assume that all guys are predators with children. I love kids, and kids love me. But because of how I presented myself in life as male, any interaction I had with children I had to be extremely careful about. (Often this meant playing it in such a way that made it seem as though I was inconvenienced but being a good sport about it if children spoke to me, when in reality I loved the interaction and found them adorable.) This simply isn't an issue for those presenting as a woman, which I always found very unfair.

I've seen that happen. I've seen woman pull their children closer when they see a guy coming toward them. And if you see an adult male talking to a child people do assume he's a perve. But I would be a hypocrite if I said I didn't pay extra attention to a man talking to a child if it's not like obvious he's their dad. I will also admit that having a guy walk behind me in a deserted space or at night makes me very nervous. The reason people Don't worry about women is because it's very rare for a female to be a pedophile and a female can't rape someone.

I think both Genders have their set of difficulties, now from my experience here's what I find; so much more is expected of you as a man, that's first and foremost. Here is a list of the thungs that I find.

1. Women are not looked down upon for beating on men and talking about stabbing us men but  we are cowards if we hit a woman, now I don't think anyone should be hitting anybody but why is it okay for a woman to be all in my face beating on me or putting their finger in my face and she's seen as the strong independent woman but I am the coward if I hit her once, why is it okay for a woman to talk about beating a mans ass but not vice versa?And I have had that last part happen recently.

2. Women can express themselves way more then men, now I already talked about this but emotionaly I have issues expressing how I feel about things, I have an issue about actually crying. I have a tendency to hold stuff in and let it bottle up but its because of this notion that men expressing themselves in that manner is wrong and even women sometimes call men gay for trying to open up about how they feel about certain situations but women can freely cry and tell everyone how they feel. I have only ever cried to one girl and that was my ex and she always cussed me about because I wouldn't talk to her about certain things.

3. How about the bathroom laws reguarding trans folks, all the women pin point their focus on the little girls but no one cares about the little boys. Its always I don't want my daughter in the bathroom with a male predator which, I wouldn't either but that goes for my son as well.

4. You could be a average looking dude and a womam still wouldn't give you the time of day but a woman that's less attractive has a better chance at finding a man who would give them the time of day and I am talking sex wise and relationship wise.

5. The assumption that men don't get raped or molested

6. The assumption again that, I shouldn't have to worry about walking alone at night or being assaulted or anything

Those are just a few though, the list goes on.

Quote from: Brandon on October 09, 2017, 02:13:36 PM
I think both Genders have their set of difficulties, now from my experience here's what I find; so much more is expected of you as a man, that's first and foremost. Here is a list of the thungs that I find.

1. Women are not looked down upon for beating on men and talking about stabbing us men but  we are cowards if we hit a woman, now I don't think anyone should be hitting anybody but why is it okay for a woman to be all in my face beating on me or putting their finger in my face and she's seen as the strong independent woman but I am the coward if I hit her once, why is it okay for a woman to talk about beating a mans ass but not vice versa?And I have had that last part happen recently.

2. Women can express themselves way more then men, now I already talked about this but emotionaly I have issues expressing how I feel about things, I have an issue about actually crying. I have a tendency to hold stuff in and let it bottle up but its because of this notion that men expressing themselves in that manner is wrong and even women sometimes call men gay for trying to open up about how they feel about certain situations but women can freely cry and tell everyone how they feel. I have only ever cried to one girl and that was my ex and she always cussed me about because I wouldn't talk to her about certain things.

3. How about the bathroom laws reguarding trans folks, all the women pin point their focus on the little girls but no one cares about the little boys. Its always I don't want my daughter in the bathroom with a male predator which, I wouldn't either but that goes for my son as well.

4. You could be a average looking dude and a womam still wouldn't give you the time of day but a woman that's less attractive has a better chance at finding a man who would give them the time of day and I am talking sex wise and relationship wise.

5. The assumption that men don't get raped or molested

6. The assumption again that, I shouldn't have to worry about walking alone at night or being assaulted or anything

Those are just a few though, the list goes on.

I totally agree with you about women beating the crap out of a guy and getting away with it. I think a woman should face equal punishment for spouse abuse. My dad has responded to domestic violence calls where the woman has beaten up the man. The problem is that a lot of guys don't want to admit a woman beat them up. My dad has had a guy lie and say his wife didn't do anything to him when his face is totally messed up and her only injury is cut and bruised knuckles.

I agree also that women are allowed to express emotion much more freely. As totally sad as that is I have zero sympathy.  It is self imposed and deserves no sympathy. From the time a male child starts walking they are told by other males that crying is wrong and boys don't cry. As they get older they are taught that being emotional is a sign of weakness. It's an emotional prison guys create for themselves.

I'm not saying men don't get molested, they do. But the only way for a guy to be raped is by another guy. It's extremely rare that a woman is going to stalk a guy, overpower him and rape him. Women usually don't have the strength to take down a grown man. And raping him is next to impossible unless she's wearing a strap on. Rape is about subjugation and power. Most women don't have strong tendencies for those .

I think both sides of the coin have legitimate struggles and benefits. Actual feminism is/was supposed to bring attention to each side's struggles but has gotten a little murky.

_____

EX (the upside): Women are allowed to express emotions, cry feely, love freely and are just generally encouraged to be 'feeling' beings.
The downside: Women are encouraged to be this way because they're assumed to be weak and in lesser control of their emotions at large to the point of being almost child-like.

_____

Opposite EX (the upside): Men are taught from a young age that they're strong and capable both mentally and physically and shouldn't waste any time on emotions.
The downside: Men are chastised and sometimes completely ostracized from other men (and women) for showing emotions because such displays are feminizing.

This means that a man who doesn't fit into the typical male standard is considered lesser than by his peers and a woman that goes against the grain of femininity is considered off-putting/harsh to her peers.

Both of these things are directly or indirectly caused by the general belief that women are weaker.
If you're a man and you act like a "woman" you deserve to be treated as such.
If you're a woman and you "rise above your lot", you need to be culled.

Men don't benefit from these assumptions any more than women do.

Quote from: Brandon on October 09, 2017, 04:17:53 AM
So I came across a video on Youtube about Transmen talking about male privilege, I found it interesting as I disagreed with all of their points, now me personally, I feel like women have it way easier and that there is no "Male Privilege" as a matter fact as a black male, it just makes it 10 times worse in my experience. I'd love to hear everyone elses oppinion and I'd also be willing to give mine. I'll leave a link to the video, hopefully it will work.

There is some sort of male and female "privilege", in a generalized sense. Although nobody is guaranteed to get any of it.

In terms of just who is better off in society overall, I would say women are generally cared for by society more than men are, generally brutalized and killed less than men are, and generally not held to as harsh a standard as men are. When it comes down to the essentials of life, we all know who is considered expendable and who isn't, and in my view it's more 'privileged' to be considered more valuable than expendable. 

If anyone has ever read the picture book "Squids Will Be Squids" as a kid there is a great little story in there called "Hand, Foot, and Tongue" where each respective body part tells the other two why they have "the toughest job." Of course no one wins this debate and the whole thing is dropped after particularly disgusting description of tongue's job. But the point is, we can go back and forth forever about how hard it is to be ourselves. Whether or not men or women have more or less privilege is a silly argument, in my mind, because no consensus is reached because it seems like no one wants to admit to having any sort of privilege whatsoever. We're better off seeking out injustice and fixing it so all people can live a satisfying life.

I believe there are a couple of reasons why the debate is important. Without the awareness of privilege the causes and outcomes of it are not addressed. Attitudes in humanity always change, sometimes slow, sometimes not completely but they do change.

There is privilege that intersects and there is oppression that intersects. It some cases you have one offset the other. Privilege creates oppression, many times without knowing but sometimes it is known. Privilege is kin to racism, sexism, ableism.

To be sure women do have some privileges that men do not, but I and many others believe they pale in comparison to the male version. This is a big reason i am a feminist. To drive equality.

Loss of privilege needn't be a negative thing. Equality for all does not mean less rights for some.