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Male Privilege?

Started by Brandon, October 09, 2017, 04:17:53 AM

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CMD042414

Every category and demographic of human being has privilege in some ways and simultaneously are disadvantaged in others. The key is how do the disadvantages affect that groups' well being in general. If you are part of a group that historically has the most power you most likely come out more favorably in this regard. Therefore I do believe that individuals who are either male, white, or heterosexual live with inherent privilege over the "opposite" demographic.

The disadvantages I live with as a man do not negatively impact my life nearly as much as the disadvantages a woman faces in my opinion. That in of itself is privilege.
Started T: April 2014
Top Surgery: June 2014
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Charlie Nicki

Quote from: CMD042414 on October 09, 2017, 06:58:41 PM
Every category and demographic of human being has privilege in some ways and simultaneously are disadvantaged in others. The key is how do the disadvantages affect that groups' well being in general. If you are part of a group that historically has the most power you most likely come out more favorably in this regard. Therefore I do believe that individuals who are either male, white, or heterosexual live with inherent privilege over the "opposite" demographic.

The disadvantages I live with as a man do not negatively impact my life nearly as much as the disadvantages a woman faces in my opinion. That in of itself is privilege.

I absolutely agree.
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  •  

Contravene

Quote from: CMD042414 on October 09, 2017, 06:58:41 PM
Every category and demographic of human being has privilege in some ways and simultaneously are disadvantaged in others. The key is how do the disadvantages affect that groups' well being in general.

I have to say, I agree and I think that was a great way to explain it.

I would also add, although I'm not sure if everyone would see it the same way, that having privelage isn't necessarily a bad thing unless it infringes on others' rights. But then it makes you wonder if everyone was treated equally, as they should be, would there be such a thing as privelage at all? I guess there would be and it would just shift to something other than race and gender.

I saw something earlier in the thread about "mansplaining" too. There is such a thing as "womansplaining", I've just never heard it called that. The majority of my coworkers are female and it seems to be the general consensus among them that men are inherently stupid. My previous two bosses were female and talked down to their male employees constantly. Spend enough time around any straight married couple for long enough and you'll witness "womansplaining" first hand but usually then it's called "nagging". It seems like adults these days haven't grow out of the elementary school idea that "boys have cooties and are stupid" and vice versa. Both parties do it and being transgender has allowed me to experience it from both sides.
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Allie24

One could argue that trans women continue to benefit from some of the biological privileges of being natal males. For example, we do not have to worry about unplanned pregnancies in case we are sexually assaulted.
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elkie-t

Quote from: Allie24 on October 10, 2017, 08:33:35 AM
One could argue that trans women continue to benefit from some of the biological privileges of being natal males. For example, we do not have to worry about unplanned pregnancies in case we are sexually assaulted.
This argument is quite shaky.
a) cis-women have different birth control options to prevent unwanted pregnancies.
b) hiv and aids are no lesser evils and cannot be prevented for either
c) the big deal about rape is physical violence and loss of the control over your body, and it applies to both.
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Allie24

Quote from: elkie-t on October 10, 2017, 09:08:48 AM
This argument is quite shaky.
a) cis-women have different birth control options to prevent unwanted pregnancies.
b) hiv and aids are no lesser evils and cannot be prevented for either
c) the big deal about rape is physical violence and loss of the control over your body, and it applies to both.

I don't think it is.

Being that unwanted pregnancy is an impossibility for us, we do not have to spend the money that cis women do on birth control, and while yes, the violence and loss of control of body is a negative consequence that applies to both parties, we don't have the added anxiety of having an unwanted pregnancy, or having to pay for an abortion, or in the case that abortion is not an option, having to carry the child and birth it and deal with the consequences of that.
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WolfNightV4X1

I honestly really hate the term "priveledge" in terms of social politics, it's oftentimes used in such a way to place minorities on a pedestal rather than achieving equality.

The phrase "Check your priveledge" is often used towards men, but It's not like every single man is inherently responsible for the  sexism other men portray, especially when they themselves are for equality and do not actually belittle or delegitimize women's rights and power.

Men have it better in a lot of ways and for years and years in the previous era women have been at disadvantages, which is great that out society has moved forward so much!  But saying males dont have any issues whatsoever in the face of society is also very lopsided, gender roles in society affect EVERYONE

Things like

*Men are expected not to show as much emotion, less they be considered weak
*Men have to be in charge
*Men cannot have sensitive interests like acting, gardening, decorating, knitting
*If men do have feminine interests, they are considered gay instead of just men
*Men do not have the freedom to express feminine clothing styles publically without scorn, when women can get away with it and be tomboyish
*Men are expected to be tough and able to win fights, rather than timid and lose fights
*Men are expected to take care of the women in the relationship


Unfair standards do exist for both sexes, so by fighting for women's rights, we would also be fighting for gender equality for men. Those sexist standards dont need to be there


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RoryM

I think it is overblown and wrong. Men and women have pros and cons due to gender roles. I think it is important to discuss both rather than one side in order to figure out the problems.

Woman are indeed very pampered in our society and much more is expected by men. Men are seen as sexual perverts, weak, and evil if they do not fit into their gender roles while society does not care if a woman takes on more masculine roles.

I think the dictomony is that women and infantalized while men are expected to always be cog in the wheel. When someone is infantalized the pros are that they are pampered, are expected to be protected, and are allowed to be emotional and have their emotions and concerns taken seriously. They can be seen as victims whether they really are or not. They basically are the identifiers of anything threatning. The cons though are that they are not taken as seriously when it comes to decisions, skill, and work because who expects a child to have such responsibility? They are seen as weaker and incapable of doing things on their own which stumps drive for individual accomplishment.

The pros to someone having hyper-responsibility (cog in the wheel) is that they are taken seriously due to assumptions that they are self-made and because of this tend to have higher accomplishments. When one has no security(unlike the infantalized) they have freedom and risk-taking choices. They are seen as strong, capable, and have leadership skill. The cons though is that their emotions and concerns are ignored. They are not protected and so their lives are expendable and are not as important. When something goes wrong they cannot blame it on something else, they can never be a victim of anything. They are expected to put their life on the line for the infantalized at any cost. In a paradox, they have more freedom and power yet have to sacrifice all of it to the infantalized. They are the ones who protect those from whatever is threating or are threatning.

I could go more in depth but that would be even more rambling.
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CMD042414

Quote from: WolfNightV4X1 on October 10, 2017, 11:48:51 AM
I honestly really hate the term "priveledge" in terms of social politics, it's oftentimes used in such a way to place minorities on a pedestal rather than achieving equality.

The phrase "Check your priveledge" is often used towards men, but It's not like every single man is inherently responsible for the  sexism other men portray, especially when they themselves are for equality and do not actually belittle or delegitimize women's rights and power.

Men have it better in a lot of ways and for years and years in the previous era women have been at disadvantages, which is great that out society has moved forward so much!  But saying males dont have any issues whatsoever in the face of society is also very lopsided, gender roles in society affect EVERYONE

Things like

*Men are expected not to show as much emotion, less they be considered weak
*Men have to be in charge
*Men cannot have sensitive interests like acting, gardening, decorating, knitting
*If men do have feminine interests, they are considered gay instead of just men
*Men do not have the freedom to express feminine clothing styles publically without scorn, when women can get away with it and be tomboyish
*Men are expected to be tough and able to win fights, rather than timid and lose fights
*Men are expected to take care of the women in the relationship


Unfair standards do exist for both sexes, so by fighting for women's rights, we would also be fighting for gender equality for men. Those sexist standards dont need to be there

How much of was created by and is perpetuated by MEN though? If a man does any of the things you mentioned he will shunned by OTHER MEN.
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CMD042414

Quote from: RoryM on October 10, 2017, 12:40:29 PM
I think it is overblown and wrong. Men and women have pros and cons due to gender roles. I think it is important to discuss both rather than one side in order to figure out the problems.

Woman are indeed very pampered in our society and much more is expected by men. Men are seen as sexual perverts, weak, and evil if they do not fit into their gender roles while society does not care if a woman takes on more masculine roles.

I think the dictomony is that women and infantalized while men are expected to always be cog in the wheel. When someone is infantalized the pros are that they are pampered, are expected to be protected, and are allowed to be emotional and have their emotions and concerns taken seriously. They can be seen as victims whether they really are or not. They basically are the identifiers of anything threatning. The cons though are that they are not taken as seriously when it comes to decisions, skill, and work because who expects a child to have such responsibility? They are seen as weaker and incapable of doing things on their own which stumps drive for individual accomplishment.

The pros to someone having hyper-responsibility (cog in the wheel) is that they are taken seriously due to assumptions that they are self-made and because of this tend to have higher accomplishments. When one has no security(unlike the infantalized) they have freedom and risk-taking choices. They are seen as strong, capable, and have leadership skill. The cons though is that their emotions and concerns are ignored. They are not protected and so their lives are expendable and are not as important. When something goes wrong they cannot blame it on something else, they can never be a victim of anything. They are expected to put their life on the line for the infantalized at any cost. In a paradox, they have more freedom and power yet have to sacrifice all of it to the infantalized. They are the ones who protect those from whatever is threating or are threatning.

I could go more in depth but that would be even more rambling.

Again, I argue that men are largely responsible for creating this setup.
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Roll

Quote from: CMD042414 on October 10, 2017, 06:18:41 PM
Again, I argue that men are largely responsible for creating this setup.

I think the questions that begs are what percentage of men are truly responsible, and if that percentage can be considered to be a fair representation for men in general. A powerful/dominant minority can certainly influence a weaker/passive majority. Historically, it is the classic "alpha males" who set the standards for society, by some means of power, physical or other, and who are probably most likely to engage in perpetuating these standards for other men. It could be said that the other men let this happen, but then the same could also be said of women. To put this in another context, I would compare it to the view of Islam in that a radical minority has often dictated society for the majority non-radical population (not specifically referring to terrorism here, but society and culture in general, ie: laws against dancing in some countries). And it certainly at least isn't fair to judge the whole based on the minority in that case, so I'd be hesitant about doing the same with men in general. To offer a counter to this (I'm not really taking a side on it, just sort of thinking it through) I would however be remiss in not mentioning the case of Germans during WWII, in which while a sizable portion of citizens (perhaps not a majority, it is very difficult to say) may not have supported the Nazi's actions in full, they did not act against them either. In that case, they are often are held at least partially responsible for their inaction. I don't know if any of this even makes much sense, I'm sort of meandering through this while bored and looking for something to do. :D
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Kylo

#31
Biology is ultimately responsible for it. Not "men" as a group.

Strip everything down to a survival situation. A group of men, women and children with minimal provisions and resources. Someone must defend the group from threats. Someone must go out into the wilderness and kill food. Do you send the men out to do those things? Or do you send the women and the children to do dangerous and arduous tasks better suited to the bodies of the men? Do you think the women would volunteer to do that stuff and take their children with them to go hunt dangerous game, or face down an enemy tribe? Do women generally do this - offer to go out and do dangerous things or hard labor - or is it the men "keeping them down"? Fast forward to today when there is more ability than ever before for women to go into the military or do labor-intensive jobs if they choose and no-one is forcing them either way. What do they choose to do? on the whole, they do not choose to do these jobs, but prefer more comfortable, gentler work. Is this men's fault?

The infantilization of women is two-way. Men have nearly always been expected to put themselves between danger and a woman and her child, by women as much as by men. How many women would not expect this, that you know of? How many would expect a man to stand there and let her be menaced by a threat, or not carry heavy luggage for her, or not help her when she is heavily pregnant and not as agile as normal? Would such a man be considered "a good man" by women's standards? No. And such is the result of this biological "team", that this biology has informed our culture and cultural attitudes. It is not "men" doing this on purpose, it is men doing this because on the whole, keeping women safe from harm and doing the jobs that clearly put more of a burden on a woman than a man makes biological and logical sense. And if you have to be the one defending and working harder work, it has come to mean that men preside over matters of defense and physical labor, for the most part, and women preside and rule over the matters of children, and wherever they happen to spend most of their time doing that. (Show me a man that tells his wife or girlfriend how best to look after her own baby and is taken seriously by any social group. Show me a man who gets to "choose the wallpaper" instead of his wife, figuratively speaking).

Men are "in charge" traditionally because they were the ones way back in that tribal situation who were standing around without children hanging off them and whose job it was to co-ordinate safety, warfare, etc. But it's perfectly arguable women are as much "in charge" of any society by way of the next generation being in their hands, or by way of them choosing who even gets to reproduce with them. Women generally rule different aspects of society, but nobody rules every inch of it. Certainly not men. Men have become what they are largely because women require it. That includes being a species where we live in family units, where a father generally remains present to help take care of offspring, or is required to help pay for that offspring. Men - and culture - are also shaped by women's needs.

And why are men held to higher standards than women by other men? Whether you're talking about that tribal group, the modern military, the workplace, wherever... men have been the ones who had to get certain things done, and their survival depended on teamwork and performance. A soldier who didn't feel like fighting that day or was afraid might get an entire group killed. Men police other men not because it's necessarily some conscious, finely-calculated prejudice, but because it's probably in the DNA and instincts from thousands of years of this setup of men having to work in male-only teams, and having to bond based on shared values and motivations. That's why the gay guy gets picked on. That's why the "sissy" gets shunned. Because they are different and do not share the values and motivation of the others. It's not a nice thing, this nonacceptance of the different, but it is probably what powered the survival of our species in some ways. Biology is not a consciously nice thing, it's a cruel thing in many cases, but it is what it is.

So if you want to blame men for doing these things, you have to also blame biology, and you may also have to blame women for not wanting to do the exact same jobs and duties that men do. Because someone has to do them if they won't. I don't hear many women aspiring to be trash-collectors, sewage workers, day laborers, oil drillers, or cannon fodder. And I don't think that's because "the men are keeping them from it" any more. It's apparently because most of them don't seem to want to do these things. In countries with the greatest degree of freedom for a woman to choose her career, oddly enough, you don't find them lining up to do these things in greater numbers, despite vigorous encouragement programs to get women into new fields. You find them doing it in greater numbers in harsh environments where there is less choice and greater pressure to earn money to survive.

This topic is a lot more complex than "everything is men's fault because men rule everything". Men do not rule everything, at all. If they did, they generally wouldn't have to make themselves attractive to a woman's tastes or help a woman in any way in order to pass on their genes. They would only have to rape and walk away. And we are not a species that does that, for the vast part. Why do so many men on this forum and others ask about how to be an attractive man to a woman, and why do men everywhere bust their balls trying to be fit and successful and attractive? Well what's the point of that if we men just rule everything anyway? Just go and take what you want because it's a man's god-given privilege, and no negative consequences will possibly come of it. But wait, that's not how it works. . . you'd be locked up, and you certainly won't be an attractive long-term mate if you bring nothing to the table but that.

Women have far more power than many people can see or are willing to admit. Just because it isn't overt, or flashed in your face, doesn't mean it's not there. In fact, the power you don't see or notice is even more powerful than the one you do because it will not be recognized or challenged for what it is. Which is exactly what happens whenever there is a question about who is really in charge. Oh the men, of course. Bigger and stronger and always kings and presidents and bosses! Everything they do is only ever for themselves and they're a menace to everyone including themselves - for some... nebulous reason nobody wants to explain. So no man ever worked hard all his life to support his family, no man ever picked up a weapon to defend them or went to war for anything other than a thrill, no man ever dedicated himself to success so she'd put a ring on him, or got his teeth knocked out defending her honor. Everything he does is nefarious in nature. Man is, through and through, an entirely self-serving and self-harming creature that when harm befalls him, is always in some way deserved. Because he apparently planned the roles and responsibilities that nature doled out to him, and took the shape that was demanded to survive. Clearly he planned culture, rather than it springing from the circumstance in which humans found themselves, and he gets to dictate exactly how it flows, at each moment.

No. Not everything is men's fault, or men's design, or men's conspiracy. If it was, don't you think we'd have improved our own lot, by now?


"If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
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Brandon

Quote from: CMD042414 on October 10, 2017, 06:17:51 PM
How much of was created by and is perpetuated by MEN though? If a man does any of the things you mentioned he will shunned by OTHER MEN.

I strongly disagree with you there bro, maybe that's how it started out but there alot of women who prepetuate that idea, just go look at facebook and you will see, especially the younger girls.
keep working hard and you can get anything you want.    -Aaliyah
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CMD042414

Quote from: Viktor on October 10, 2017, 07:23:11 PM
Biology is ultimately responsible for it. Not "men" as a group.

Strip everything down to a survival situation. A group of men, women and children with minimal provisions and resources. Someone must defend the group from threats. Someone must go out into the wilderness and kill food. Do you send the men out to do those things? Or do you send the women and the children to do dangerous and arduous tasks better suited to the bodies of the men? Do you think the women would volunteer to do that stuff and take their children with them to go hunt dangerous game, or face down an enemy tribe? Do women generally do this - offer to go out and do dangerous things or hard labor - or is it the men "keeping them down"? Fast forward to today when there is more ability than ever before for women to go into the military or do labor-intensive jobs if they choose and no-one is forcing them either way. What do they choose to do? on the whole, they do not choose to do these jobs, but prefer more comfortable, gentler work. Is this men's fault?

The infantilization of women is two-way. Men have nearly always been expected to put themselves between danger and a woman and her child, by women as much as by men. How many women would not expect this, that you know of? How many would expect a man to stand there and let her be menaced by a threat, or not carry heavy luggage for her, or not help her when she is heavily pregnant and not as agile as normal? Would such a man be considered "a good man" by women's standards? No. And such is the result of this biological "team", that this biology has informed our culture and cultural attitudes. It is not "men" doing this on purpose, it is men doing this because on the whole, keeping women safe from harm and doing the jobs that clearly put more of a burden on a woman than a man makes biological and logical sense. And if you have to be the one defending and working harder work, it has come to mean that men preside over matters of defense and physical labor, for the most part, and women preside and rule over the matters of children, and wherever they happen to spend most of their time doing that. (Show me a man that tells his wife or girlfriend how best to look after her own baby and is taken seriously by any social group. Show me a man who gets to "choose the wallpaper" instead of his wife, figuratively speaking).

Men are "in charge" traditionally because they were the ones way back in that tribal situation who were standing around without children hanging off them and whose job it was to co-ordinate safety, warfare, etc. But it's perfectly arguable women are as much "in charge" of any society by way of the next generation being in their hands, or by way of them choosing who even gets to reproduce with them. Women generally rule different aspects of society, but nobody rules every inch of it. Certainly not men. Men have become what they are largely because women require it. That includes being a species where we live in family units, where a father generally remains present to help take care of offspring, or is required to help pay for that offspring. Men - and culture - are also shaped by women's needs.

And why are men held to higher standards than women by other men? Whether you're talking about that tribal group, the modern military, the workplace, wherever... men have been the ones who had to get certain things done, and their survival depended on teamwork and performance. A soldier who didn't feel like fighting that day or was afraid might get an entire group killed. Men police other men not because it's necessarily some conscious, finely-calculated prejudice, but because it's probably in the DNA and instincts from thousands of years of this setup of men having to work in male-only teams, and having to bond based on shared values and motivations. That's why the gay guy gets picked on. That's why the "sissy" gets shunned. Because they are different and do not share the values and motivation of the others. It's not a nice thing, this nonacceptance of the different, but it is probably what powered the survival of our species in some ways. Biology is not a consciously nice thing, it's a cruel thing in many cases, but it is what it is.

So if you want to blame men for doing these things, you have to also blame biology, and you may also have to blame women for not wanting to do the exact same jobs and duties that men do. Because someone has to do them if they won't. I don't hear many women aspiring to be trash-collectors, sewage workers, day laborers, oil drillers, or cannon fodder. And I don't think that's because "the men are keeping them from it" any more. It's apparently because most of them don't seem to want to do these things. In countries with the greatest degree of freedom for a woman to choose her career, oddly enough, you don't find them lining up to do these things in greater numbers, despite vigorous encouragement programs to get women into new fields. You find them doing it in greater numbers in harsh environments where there is less choice and greater pressure to earn money to survive.

This topic is a lot more complex than "everything is men's fault because men rule everything". Men do not rule everything, at all. If they did, they generally wouldn't have to make themselves attractive to a woman's tastes or help a woman in any way in order to pass on their genes. They would only have to rape and walk away. And we are not a species that does that, for the vast part. Why do so many men on this forum and others ask about how to be an attractive man to a woman, and why do men everywhere bust their balls trying to be fit and successful and attractive? Well what's the point of that if we men just rule everything anyway? Just go and take what you want because it's a man's god-given privilege, and no negative consequences will possibly come of it. But wait, that's not how it works. . . you'd be locked up, and you certainly won't be an attractive long-term mate if you bring nothing to the table but that.

Women have far more power than many people can see or are willing to admit. Just because it isn't overt, or flashed in your face, doesn't mean it's not there. In fact, the power you don't see or notice is even more powerful than the one you do because it will not be recognized or challenged for what it is. Which is exactly what happens whenever there is a question about who is really in charge. Oh the men, of course. Bigger and stronger and always kings and presidents and bosses! Everything they do is only ever for themselves and they're a menace to everyone including themselves - for some... nebulous reason nobody wants to explain. So no man ever worked hard all his life to support his family, no man ever picked up a weapon to defend them or went to war for anything other than a thrill, no man ever dedicated himself to success so she'd put a ring on him, or got his teeth knocked out defending her honor. Everything he does is nefarious in nature. Man is, through and through, an entirely self-serving and self-harming creature that when harm befalls him, is always in some way deserved. Because he apparently planned the roles and responsibilities that nature doled out to him, and took the shape that was demanded to survive. Clearly he planned culture, rather than it springing from the circumstance in which humans found themselves, and he gets to dictate exactly how it flows, at each moment.

No. Not everything is men's fault, or men's design, or men's conspiracy. If it was, don't you think we'd have improved our own lot, by now?
I think the biology argument is turned completely on its head by our existence. And to read your post you would think that we are all just acting out primal, evolutionary instincts. We are way more complex than me, man; her, woman. That's some loin cloth wearing, beating your chest with your fists stuff right there.

Like I said before are there privileges that women enjoy over men? Of freakin' course! I mean come on of course there are. But the key is how one group's set of privileges affects the opposite group. Historically and currently men have the outright advantage there. ESPECIALLY if you are talking globally. Like 100% globally.
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SeptagonScars

I too disagree that there's a male privilege (in the strict sense). I haven't noticed a huge difference in how society has treated me before vs. after transitioning/passing as male, but some. People talk over me just as much as ever before, most people are kind and polite. But what has changed is that since passing I'm more frequently expected to take the first initiative, be strong, be protective, help people (especially women) out more. Also, and this is the thing that's the most disturbing to me: before transitioning I could easily and openly talk about my past experiences of having been through sexual abuse; people listened, showed care and wanted to comfort. But since after transitioning, not so much of that niceness. Now people are much more likely to be: embarrassed, awkward, completely silent, ignoring, or even laughing at me. Let's just say I can take it but I'd rather not.

Now I don't want to go all that deep into my opinions on gender equality/sexism in society, but yeah I don't believe in male privilege, or a patriarchy, so I'm not a feminist, but I do believe in equality for everyone regardless of gender. I agree with a lot of what you say Brandon, as well as others in this thread too. I think legally women have it better than men, but on more of a social aspect, that it's pretty much as bad/good for both but in different ways.

I've seen that video on youtube as well, a few times, a while ago, and it didn't make much sense to me either time. Like at one point in the video one of the guys says being told that "men don't wall out (dance) to Beyonce like that" -is a sign of male privilege... doesn't sound like much of an advantage to me.
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  •  

Brandon

Quote from: SeptagonScars on October 11, 2017, 02:29:24 AM
I too disagree that there's a male privilege (in the strict sense). I haven't noticed a huge difference in how society has treated me before vs. after transitioning/passing as male, but some. People talk over me just as much as ever before, most people are kind and polite. But what has changed is that since passing I'm more frequently expected to take the first initiative, be strong, be protective, help people (especially women) out more. Also, and this is the thing that's the most disturbing to me: before transitioning I could easily and openly talk about my past experiences of having been through sexual abuse; people listened, showed care and wanted to comfort. But since after transitioning, not so much of that niceness. Now people are much more likely to be: embarrassed, awkward, completely silent, ignoring, or even laughing at me. Let's just say I can take it but I'd rather not.

Now I don't want to go all that deep into my opinions on gender equality/sexism in society, but yeah I don't believe in male privilege, or a patriarchy, so I'm not a feminist, but I do believe in equality for everyone regardless of gender. I agree with a lot of what you say Brandon, as well as others in this thread too. I think legally women have it better than men, but on more of a social aspect, that it's pretty much as bad/good for both but in different ways.

I've seen that video on youtube as well, a few times, a while ago, and it didn't make much sense to me either time. Like at one point in the video one of the guys says being told that "men don't wall out (dance) to Beyonce like that" -is a sign of male privilege... doesn't sound like much of an advantage to me.

Dude I thought the same thing, I am like aren't you kind of contradicting yourself by saying that? Honestly I'd love to sit down and talk with those guys just because I find it so interesting that they believe that there is male privilege.
keep working hard and you can get anything you want.    -Aaliyah
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caliyr

Quote from: CMD042414 on October 10, 2017, 09:49:14 PM
I think the biology argument is turned completely on its head by our existence. And to read your post you would think that we are all just acting out primal, evolutionary instincts. We are way more complex than me, man; her, woman. That's some loin cloth wearing, beating your chest with your fists stuff right there.

It might seem that way at first glance, but let's take a look at history.

Let's take the earliest supposed date of domestication of cattle first, which is at the end of the Mesolithic era, when domestication of plants and animals started, along with beginning of agriculture, while most peoples in this era still continued intensive hunting. We're talking around 10,000 years ago, so ~8000 BC.

Neolithic era, 6000 years ago / 4000 BC - earliest supposed dates of the domestication of the horse and chicken.

5700 years ago / 3700 BC - settlement in Maidanets, Ukraine that reached 12-46,000 inhabitants and had 3-storey buildings.

Humans started domesticating plants and animals 10,000 years ago and took them around 4000 years to figure out horses and chicken. One of the first animal-drawn plough-like tools was the ard, developed by Egyptians around 2800BC, meaning that for thousands of years, despite domesticating animals, peoples did their agriculture mostly by hand.

If we take that settlement in Maidanets, Ukraine that I mentioned above, it qualifies as a Town (population of 1000-20,000) and later as a Large Town (population of 20,000-100,000). That was ~5700 years ago. People have been living in societies from before that time, and people fulfilled different roles based on a lot of things.

Seems like based on a few of these examples, humanity develops rather slowly, no? I dont want to go too deep into history and we really dont have to go too far back.

Quote from: Viktor on October 10, 2017, 07:23:11 PM
Someone must defend the group from threats. Someone must go out into the wilderness and kill food. Do you send the men out to do those things? [...] Do women generally do this - offer to go out and do dangerous things or hard labor - or is it the men "keeping them down"?

[...] Men have nearly always been expected to put themselves between danger and a woman and her child, by women as much as by men. How many women would not expect this, that you know of?

[...] keeping women safe from harm and doing the jobs that clearly put more of a burden on a woman than a man makes biological and logical sense.

Quote from: Viktor on October 10, 2017, 07:23:11 PM
I don't hear many women aspiring to be trash-collectors, sewage workers, day laborers, oil drillers, or cannon fodder. And I don't think that's because "the men are keeping them from it" any more. It's apparently because most of them don't seem to want to do these things. In countries with the greatest degree of freedom for a woman to choose her career, oddly enough, you don't find them lining up to do these things in greater numbers, despite vigorous encouragement programs to get women into new fields.

During World War 1-2, who went to fight the battles? Back then women did not have the same rights as men, OK. In more recent wars however, in countries where women have already had the same rights as men, who joint the armies to go fight in battles?

Quote from: RobynD on October 09, 2017, 05:56:39 PM
[...] This is a big reason i am a feminist. To drive equality.

Loss of privilege needn't be a negative thing. Equality for all does not mean less rights for some.

Name one right a man has but a woman doesn't, in any of the countries in the West.

Women are not earning less than men, not when you compare the exact same job, exact same hours and exact same amount of holidays taken. Most women are not interested in working 40-60 hours a week, most women want to build a family, want to have kids, want to be mothers. You don't get to do both. You can either build a family or build a career. If you try to juggle both, you'll either have to work part time (your career will likely suffer) or you will have to somewhat neglect your kids. You simply do not have enough time and energy to do both.

Currently, a woman, if she wants to, can be a lawyer with a career-oriented life, but if she wants to, she can also choose to be a stay-at-home wife and no one will shun her. A straight male, however, has almost no chance of finding a woman who will be OK with him being a stay-at-home father, let alone a stay-at-home husband without kids. It's just not going to happen.

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Alex81

I didn't read the entire thread, just the first post, and didn't watch the video. I'm currently a 'cis' male (well non-transitioning mtf) and I have zero male privilege, and never had it.

Sure, there's male privilege, and there's female privilege all with their own perks and disappointments. I simply call the mess "Gender Based Privilege". But, there's also attractiveness privilege, race privilege, financial privilege, knowledge privilege, social privilege, and even luck privilege. Everyone has and/or gets ________ privilege when they fit into the lovely Pre-cast Box of Expectation™. That's just the way I see it. Oh the joys of expectations & stereotypes.

Me,the only privilege I have/had is being treated like a small stupid criminal child, and having to prove each and every little thing I say and/or do - constantly, to everybody.
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jordn

Quote from: Alex81 on November 10, 2017, 05:27:01 AM
Sure, there's male privilege, and there's female privilege all with their own perks and disappointments. I simply call the mess "Gender Based Privilege". But, there's also attractiveness privilege, race privilege, financial privilege, knowledge privilege, social privilege, and even luck privilege. Everyone has and/or gets ________ privilege when they fit into the lovely Pre-cast Box of Expectation™. That's just the way I see it. Oh the joys of expectations & stereotypes.
Exactly, to the point. Well said, Alex!
And privileges change from place to place.
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kk

I'm trying to think of the best way to word the point I want to make, so forgive me if this is a little murky.

Thanks to feminism, there has been a shift.  Male privilege is waning, for sure.  If you consider where we are considered to the 50's or earlier, there has been progress.  Women have more access to traditionally male jobs, etc.  But the fact that people still say "male nurse" and "female doctor" is telling.  Also, men are allowed to be more feminine and soft, etc.  (Sidenote: do not blame women for the fact that men cannot be feminine; this is usually a standard set by other men, even if it is also perpetuated by women.)

I live in a small town, I almost always have.  Male privilege is still rampant in the country (the saying goes that small towns are about 30 years behind big cities).  Ye olde "smile, sweetie" etc.  It's pretty bad, especially since I tend to work in male-centric jobs as the only apparent female (I am not out as transgender).  I have in the past been paid less because my work is not as valued, I have been ignored when discussing how to do a job, men and women both have doubted my math skills and my ability to think logically and solve a problem, men constantly talk over me.  They literally do not hear me even though others in the group are like "no, she was definitely talking and you just bulled in there."  Men out here at least are not aware of how they talk over/ignore/mistreat women, and that is male privilege.

Male privilege is like racism.  You do not have to be actively involved to benefit from it.  I am white.  I do my best not to act in a racist way, but I'm sure I slip up here and there due to ignorance.  I don't act racist, but I do benefit from racism because I am white.

Men who do not act in a sexist way directly can and do still benefit from male privilege, which still exists.  If myself, an apparent butch woman, and a masculine cisman both applied for the same job as a ranch hand, who do you think will get the job?  Say we have the same experience, the same amount of muscle.  If we both send in applications or resumes, or even make a phone call, the employer is likely to choose the man simply because he is a man, and man = ranch worker.  One look at my female name, the sound of my feminine voice, and I'm out for no reason other than that.  Did the male applicant act sexist in any way?  No.  But he still benefited from male privilege.

Edit: Let's look at the opposite.  Say a man and a woman both apply to be a secretary in an office, both with the same experience, et cetera.  Out here in the country, you see more female secretaries because a) it's seen as a woman's job, a subordinate role, etc.  and b) the men are already working in more masculine, more widely available jobs such as working machinery, ranching, truck driving, etc.  I suppose that's more gender roles, but male privilege comes from the perpetuation of antiquated gender roles/expectations.

I am fully aware that when I transition and begin to pass, I will start to benefit from male privilege.  It has already happened in instances where I pass even though I'm pre-T.  People give me favor over my femme and cis girlfriend.  Already, I benefit/experience male privilege in that I didn't even notice this favor until my girlfriend pointed it out to me.  I accepted that I gained favor because of my masculine appearance without realizing it, and that is male privilege.

As far as female privilege?  That I cannot speak on because I haven't necessarily experienced or seen it first hand.  In my experience, there is no female privilege.  In my life I have been seen and used as a tool by many men, including those in my own family, because I am seen as female.  This in part contributed to me wondering if I was really trans, or if I was just trying to escape being a woman because of how women are mistreated.

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