Quote from: Another Nikki on November 03, 2017, 10:33:43 AM
One of the things I liked about Susan's is that it seemed to be free of the conflict of
->-bleeped-<-r than thou, young vs old transitioners or my misery is greater than your misery.

Well, that took longer than I thought it would. Nobody is playing a game of one upmanship here, we're just sharing and comparing experiences but leave it up to someone to think so every damn time trans youth try to talk about their lives in mixed company.

We all hurt and we all have our own trials and tribulations. No one here is trying to minimize, invalidate or elevate what anyone else goes through or has been through. I'm certainly not and it is inconceivable to me the level of difficulty one must face to transition as an established adult or the anguish others must have felt growing up and not been able to do anything about this.

This thread in particular was about examining some of the factors in why being trans is expressed in different ways and at different stages of life for some than for others not to infer that any one path is better than the other. We all have our challenges, miseries, triumphs and successes but quite frankly, the experiences of those of us that did or had to deal with this externally and publicly as children and adolescents are not the same as those that do as adults and our voices have every right to be heard equally without someone thinking that we're thinking we're better or "more transer than thou".

My life and my stories are not much different than say Julia's, Aurora's or any other trans youth's are other than I went through all this a hella long time ago when the world was much different, things were a lot more extreme and I was pretty much one of a kind. Maybe others don't think so but I believe a little history and backstory might help people better understand where we've come from to get where we are today. Heck, some people don't believe trans youth even existed in the past or that it was possible to grow up the way I did, when I did.

I am sorry if my sharing has come across as antagonistic or boastful or as insinuating some hierarchy of transness. That has not been my intent, however, the way things are interpreted is beyond my control. I'll just shut up now so no one else gets offended. It's not that it's a no win situation because there is no winner and it's not a competition.

Best of everything to all.

Quote from: Lisa_K on November 03, 2017, 03:34:10 PMMy life and my stories are not much different than say Julia's, Aurora's or any other trans youth's are other than I went through all this a hella long time ago when the world was much different, things were a lot more extreme and I was pretty much one of a kind. Maybe others don't think so but I believe a little history and backstory might help people better understand where we've come from to get where we are today. Heck, some people don't believe trans youth even existed in the past or that it was possible to grow up the way I did, when I did.

Lisa,

I want to thank you.

I love what you say. I find your words very valuable. The story you tell is not speculation, or a search for an answer. At least to me it is history—a concrete narrative of something that happened and is complete. You saw and recognized the truth and followed it through. To me yours is a narrative of a job done right.

I love this thread, and am sad to see it seems to have upset some.

I'll try to write my own thoughts down, and just hope my words don't cause more strife.

When one is told something when young and accepts it as truth, it becomes a thing of value—a part of one's life's foundation.

A foundation affects everything built on it. The further the construction proceeds, the more difficult fundamental change becomes. It means something must be torn open and rebuilt. At some point it probably seems easier to try to live with the defects than to try to address them.

A house can be torn down completely and rebuilt. Lives can't. What's more, we can't hire others to do most of the work. Thus, even when we feel something is clearly wrong, fear of just making things even worse makes us apt to ignore them. This goes on until it no longer can—often when it becomes evident that collapse is imminent.

Much of the discussion on this forum revolves around gathering the courage to tear down and change something, and how to approach the task. Change is not easy.

Perhaps some people get irritated and upset when told of how a fix was made at an earlier stage. It is true that reform is more involved than new construction—but while e.g. early age and parental protection helps, it is not a panacea. The present state of things is the entirety of what exists at that point even to the youngest child.

All the work we do when building our rebuilding our lives we have to do ourselves. We learn as we go from elders and peers who are doing or have done something similar.

To me it gives enormous perspective to listen to skilled and successful builders, regardless of when they started. After all, they've accomplished what the reformers need to do once the demolition part of the job is finished, and gone beyond.

I myself would love to hear more.

Well, part of the primary premise is that it is something as "fundamental as breathing". Well... for me, it wasn't, and still isn't. It is important, yes. Extremely important. My inward turn, over a decade of being a shut-in after dropping out of high school because I just couldn't face the world anymore... Yeah, that doesn't happen because of denying something unless that something is on the extremely important side. But as important as breathing? Nope, not for me. (I've also never been suicidal. Not sure why, I've said that before, as by all rights I should have been.) So basically, it was never an issue of survival, of life itself. But I've come to realize that it is an issue of living life.

Think about it like this... Matters of survival, that's easy to understand. Self preservation is hardwired into us. If you needed to transition to survive, it makes perfect sense you'd be driven to transition. (Which works on both ends of the age spectrum as dysphoria grows for many leading to that survival risk.) But the idea of quality of life, even one that was as extreme as my quality of life issue? That is really, really hard for a depressed teenager to consciously comprehend. Unconsciously of course, that means putting up those blinders and going full on denial as the mind attempts to salvage what it can.

Quote from: Aurorasky on November 02, 2017, 04:39:51 PM
People here are minimizing the problems of those who transition early while validating the concerns and worries that kept those who transitioned late from transitioning earlier, stuff that is lived every day by younger transitioners. Can anybody see the contradiction?

Like I said, I admire your courage and determination.  However, can't you see the contradiction in trans people displaying such courage and yet saying that they would definitely have killed themselves if they couldn't have transitioned in childhood?:

Quote from: Complete on November 01, 2017, 09:15:21 PM
"I don't quite understand it or what makes some of us so different that this becomes a matter of life and death as children and adolescents and isn't something that can be ignored or repressed regardless of how much parents or society try. I know for sure without the support of my folks and being allowed to do the things I did, I can say with certainty that I would have killed myself because all of this was so absolutely fundamental to my very existence, I would have rather died than to have ever grown up to be a man." ~LisaK

Most transgender people have felt suicidal, but actually killing oneself is not traditionally regarded as a sign of courage.  Trans people who believe that of themselves should just be grateful that unlike many of us, they have not had to prove or disprove it.

And, although no offence may have been intended, the "great question" can be rephrased as
"Why haven't you people killed yourselves?  I would rather be dead than like you."

Surely you realise how insensitive that seems.  And, if you have been reading many of the posts on Susan's Place, you will realise that many of the people reading this topic, of all ages, are suicidal right now.  The last thing they need to read is someone saying that she would have killed herself if she couldn't have transitioned before physically becoming a man.

We're all trans people with different experiences. I hope we can all relax a little and learn from each other without being upset. Like Ringo said, "Peace and Love." (Gosh I'm old! At least I didn't say, "Like Beethoven used to say.)
Moni

Before I abandon the topic myself, as I do find it a bit too stimulating, I would like to say something on behalf of the very female trans women who have married and "fathered" children and/or are proud of their achievements in the armed forces.   Part of this topic does seem to ask how genuinely trans people can transition later in life.  I may be unqualified, as I have never married or had a partner, and I have never joined the armed forces, but here goes.

I am not saying that people who transitioned early are shallow.  I do think, though, that transitioning, and even SRS, though infinitely desirable, are the shallow part of being a woman.  I remember a documentary in which a mother confessed that she had doubts about helping her flamboyantly femininine trans daughter to transition.  She pointed out that a large part of being a real woman is being nurturing.

Women are nurturing.  They love, protect and, if possible, have, children.  Their nurturing and compassion often overflows into nurturing and protecting the children of others, and caring for the sick and elderly.  Marrying and becoming a "father" could be part of that. 

And, although having traditionally male careers such as the armed forces may be partly a struggle against their true nature, that too could be an outlet for nurturing and protective instincts: protecting innocent people in war zones; rescuing and caring for injured people; passing on one's knowledge to keep younger soldiers safe, etc..  From what I have heard, some sergeants behave like grumpy mother hens or shepherdesses.

Women can have fighting instincts too.  I never joined the armed forces but my mother joined the WAAF before the WRAF was formed.  She was proud of trying to do her bit.  She would also have been entitled, because of her civilian work in the Middle East, to full membership of the Aden Veteran's Association.  There were several explosions on the street where we lived, including at the entrance to our compound, and I remember that my mother never even flinched.  She would have certainly remained there with my father if they had not been concerned for the safety of their children, and when my father joined us, she couldn't wait to go somewhere more exciting than boring old England.  I witnessed her physical bravery too, when she was in her seventies.  Two teenagers picked on an elderly man who had accidentally bumped into one of them.  Her fury changed the attention of the teenagers while the old man walked off, perhaps feeling embarrassed.  I had to physically restrain my mother, while trying to look fearless myself.  At her funeral, the vicar called her a soldier, and it is obvious to me why.  My mother was womanly but not less brave than a MAAB soldier.  By the same token, I am sure that MAAB soldiers who later transition are not necessarily less womanly than my mother.

Quote from: marytAnd, although no offence may have been intended, the "great question" can be rephrased as
"Why haven't you people killed yourselves?  I would rather be dead than like you."

Well I have heard over the lunch table at work "I'm glad my kid isn't a ->-bleeped-<- but I'd rather he be dead than transexual". Back then it was probably a normal cis reaction. But it has nothing to do with closeted people.

However that wasn't the meaning of Lisa's question as I understood it, was inability to comprehend being trans and not doing anything about it.

Quote from: SadieBlake on November 04, 2017, 11:15:25 AM
Well I have heard over the lunch table at work "I'm glad my kid isn't a ->-bleeped-<- but I'd rather he be dead than transexual". Back then it was probably a normal cis reaction. But it has nothing to do with closeted people.

However that wasn't the meaning of Lisa's question as I understood it, was inability to comprehend being trans and not doing anything about it.

That may have been Lisa's intention, in which case "matter of life and death" and "I would have rather died"  need not have formed part of the question.

I must point out that I regret any discomfort that Lisa may have as a result of this topic.  Her original post was a casual comment on another topic, and not intended to be a topic in its own right.

One can be nurturing and prefer not to inseminate another person in order to have children. There are other methods.

For some of us it is not about being "women" as much as it is being "biologically female". I'm sorry if it comes across as offensive to some but scientifically speaking insemination of the female is a distinctly male function. So as someone who is deeply, deeply disturbed by her male functions, it would kill me to do what males of all species do. Some are not so disturbed by this. And, as said before, we're all different. Which is not a bad thing. This has nothing to do with the legitimacy of anyone's identity, just the different ways in which those identities manifest.

Becoming biologically female is at this point in time not possible.  That's the unfortunate truth.  So we make the best of our individual situations to adapt and overcome.


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Quote from: Complete on November 01, 2017, 09:15:21 PM
"I don't quite understand it or what makes some of us so different that this becomes a matter of life and death as children and adolescents and isn't something that can be ignored or repressed regardless of how much parents or society try. I know for sure without the support of my folks and being allowed to do the things I did, I can say with certainty that I would have killed myself because all of this was so absolutely fundamental to my very existence, I would have rather died than to have ever grown up to be a man." ~LisaK

For me this is a great question.  I have wondered about this ever since I first began interacting with people identifying as transgendered. I see the differences,  and l accept them. I just cannot explain or understand them. Maybe I shouldn't worry about the why and just celebrate our differences.

I wanted to be a girl from a young age, but I was not suicidal over it.  I was depressed often, there were plenty of times I would go running upstairs after school, to cry into my pillow while screaming I wish I were never born.  I mostly just shut out the whole world, and lived in my head as I continue to do to this day.  I loved my parents, my brothers, I was practically invisible in school, and I have a great imagination that I can quite literally spend the greater part of my day off in lala land. 

Also, suicide was not an option, as far as I believed I would be sent to hell which would be an even worst spot than the one I was in at the time (I was preached hell fire) Plus the guilt of hurting my family would have been way too severe, I've always had an incredibly guilty conscious, and a overactive sense of empathy.   Coworkers have often lectured me on being too nice to people, and how I let them walk all over me. 

As a child when I asked my mom if she thought I would have been pretty as a girl, and I saw her getting worried and depressed, it hit me pretty hard, and there were several instances like that.  They were not outright abusive, they did not mock and ridicule me, they would other TG people, along with all of the shows and movies mocking us, and the guilt I felt was tremendous.  I felt guilty about being TS, I still do to be honest, I feel like I am being a horrible burden on my loved ones.. but suicide would likewise be a horrible burden on them.

Without the overactive sense of guilt, I probably would have transitioned much earlier, at around the age of 23.  I swear, even when I walk into a store, I feel like I am imposing on everyone around me, imagine how much that screws with your head?  That sense of guilt has held me back so much in life, that it is ridiculous. 

I think a lot of people, in my place, would have killed themselves by now.  Unemployed, in their 40s, mental issues, all of that fun stuff, yet I keep on holding on to hope that things will change, combined with the guilt of how much it would hurt my loved ones keeps me going.  I've thought of it plenty of times, I have a painless method of doing it, that is not messy, but I know I won't because I don't want my last thoughts being filled with regret and worry about my loved ones.

Quote from: zamber74 on November 04, 2017, 03:18:07 PM

Without the overactive sense of guilt, I probably would have transitioned much earlier, at around the age of 23.  I swear, even when I walk into a store, I feel like I am imposing on everyone around me, imagine how much that screws with your head?  That sense of guilt has held me back so much in life, that it is ridiculous. 

I think we had a very similar reaction it sounds like, with a lot of the same reasoning. Though I didn't consider hellfire per se, I definitely felt that suicide was not a solution, just a bigger problem. I'm the same way about stores and feeling like i am imposing on everyone, too, also showing that similar mentality. I can't remember if I mentioned it on these forums or elsewhere, but if a restaurant messes up my food, I am somehow the one who apologizes to them. (Recently I was with someone who complained about food, not that the order was wrong wrong just that they didn't like it, and had it taken off their bill. I was in shock and mortified just sitting at the same table. )

For Zamber and Roll: Me too.

I did come close to suicide over this once about 11 years ago.  I had it planned out and was rehearsing with my unloaded pistol.  What stopped me was secondarily fear of hell but primarily the vision of my family having to clean my spattered brains off of the wall and floor.


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Quote from: Roll on November 04, 2017, 03:37:27 PM
I think we had a very similar reaction it sounds like, with a lot of the same reasoning. Though I didn't consider hellfire per se, I definitely felt that suicide was not a solution, just a bigger problem. I'm the same way about stores and feeling like i am imposing on everyone, too, also showing that similar mentality. I can't remember if I mentioned it on these forums or elsewhere, but if a restaurant messes up my food, I am somehow the one who apologizes to them. (Recently I was with someone who complained about food, not that the order was wrong wrong just that they didn't like it, and had it taken off their bill. I was in shock and mortified just sitting at the same table. )

I've had the same restaurant issues on many occasions, and I also find myself apologizing for things I should not be.  I don't want to be a mean spirited person, but at the same time everyone who has always told me I'm being too nice, was right.  I just can't get past it, and it definitely has a huge impact on life. 

I'm sorry you have to deal with it too.

Not to get all crazy here, but I really do hope that sometime in my life technology gets to the point of being advanced enough that our reliance on one another (as a whole) is not necessary, and we can each live out the remainder of our days only among those we wish to be around and wish to be around us as well.. and AI becomes sophisticated enough to maintain a decent conversation   I've spent most of my life trying to stay away from people, so it would be an upgrade for me.  Plug me into a machine, and let me live in my own style of a Matrix and I would be happy as can be   No more guilt, because I would not have to worry about others so much.

Deborah, I'm glad you are still here with us.  Every time I've considered it, I think the same kind of things, it would be a really cruel thing to do to my family. 

I stumbled home from my weekly night out at the pub last night and started writing another post for this thread in a rather inebriated state at 2:00 AM. At 6:00 AM and 1,300 words later, I called it quits and went to bed with the good sense to not hit the post button first. I had been moved and inspired by zirconia's post above and encouraged by her saying she would love to hear more so in a Paul Harvey "now-for-the-rest-of-the-story" moment, I followed up with what came next for me after my most tumultuous years. I thought it might be appropriate for folks to know how things turned out  and I may actually post the novel I wrote later but the thread has moved on and I want to address those issues first.

I'll begin with where I did start out last night because my feelings haven't changed and I thought it was important to say. I wrote "zirconia, I am really touched by your lovely post, wisdom and eloquence and I truly appreciate your thoughts. Thank you for your kindness".

With that said...

Quote from: MaryT on November 04, 2017, 09:54:22 AM
And, although no offence may have been intended, the "great question" can be rephrased as
"Why haven't you people killed yourselves?  I would rather be dead than like you."

You're the only one doing any rephrasing here which is more like twisting my words to your own design and you are obviously triggered by the way you have interpreted the things I have said. There's no need to project my experience onto yours or anyone else's and it is not up to you to determine or invalidate my level of despair and desperation. Maybe it hits a little too close to home but the truth is I would have rather been dead than to be a man or go all through all this the way most people on this site do. I would have not had the strength to do that. This is my experience. I am allowed to have it so don't turn it around and put words in my mouth that this somehow equates to thinking I'm more transer or some other bullsnip like that insinuating what I said means if you didn't have to go through this as children and felt as deeply that it somehow makes you lesser.

QuoteSurely you realise how insensitive that seems.  And, if you have been reading many of the posts on Susan's Place, you will realise that many of the people reading this topic, of all ages, are suicidal right now.  The last thing they need to read is someone saying that she would have killed herself if she couldn't have transitioned before physically becoming a man.

Point taken but sugar coating things and not sharing what was my reality that I forged into my successes doesn't help anyone either.

QuotePart of this topic does seem to ask how genuinely trans people can transition later in life.

No it doesn't. I've made no aspersions of any such kind. You are the one imposing your narrative onto my experiences and that just isn't fair. This just illustrates the type of typical attitudes projected on those of us that did do this young and have never had to live as men. It doesn't make us more "genuine", more real women or more "true trans" but this is the light we are cast in even if we don't feel that way at all. We're just a small minority subset within a larger minority and many aspects of our lives do result is us feeling different but I'm sure none of us thinks that makes us better than you are or anyone else is. That's just crap but I'll cut you some slack because some of your misinterpretations may be cultural or specific to your own regional differences and you also seem to have some very stereotypically traditional views about womanhood etc. Alluding to soldiers being "nurturing" because they're protecting people indicates just how much you are willing distort the truth to fit your reality. OMG!

Quote from: SadieBlake on November 04, 2017, 11:15:25 AM
However that wasn't the meaning of Lisa's question as I understood it, was inability to comprehend being trans and not doing anything about it.

This is more or less accurate. Thank you. It is incomprehensible to me how anyone could have felt the way I did on such a deep foundational and elemental level to the point it did become life threatening and not been driven to do something about it regardless of the consequences of possibly being rejected, beaten or driven to self harm. Then to be told I really didn't mean it because I'm still here by someone that wasn't me is simply exasperating.

Quote from: MaryT on November 04, 2017, 11:37:53 AM
I must point out that I regret any discomfort that Lisa may have as a result of this topic.  Her original post was a casual comment on another topic, and not intended to be a topic in its own right.

But it was a good topic and has generated some worthy discussion. I have not felt "discomfort" from anyone's comments. I'm not a snowflake, don't need a safe space nor am I butthurt by any of this but I won't deny feeling a bit of irritation and maybe frustration at how some have tried to turn this into an us vs. them debate because the lives of us that were trans youth are just as inconceivable to you as the lives of those that have lived as men are to us.

Then to insinuate that you're not saying that early transitioners are shallow because they didn't have to face the same hardships and then proceed to do exactly that attempts to invalidate or minimize the things we did go through which I can't say I appreciate very much because you have never walked in our shoes. Likewise, we have never walked in yours and why it is so difficult to imagine the lives you've had.

Let's just leave it at that. Even though I don't understand your experience because I haven't lived it and do wonder sometimes what it is that makes us so different, I'm not putting anyone down because of it nor am I trying to say we are better than you. Thinking that is your problem, not mine.

Quote from: HappyMoni on November 04, 2017, 10:19:50 AM
We're all trans people with different experiences. I hope we can all relax a little and learn from each other without being upset.

This has been a valuable discussion even with levels of disagreement and misunderstanding and rather than this thread getting shut down because it's not nice enough to fit into the imposed happy rainbow fairyland around here, the topic is one of substance that people can learn from because in the real world, not everyone is on the same page and if people truly are interested in hearing about the diversity of the trans experience, then they should have the opportunity to do so and draw their own conclusions even if the discourse makes some uncomfortable. Maybe no one understands any of this but I know at least Julia and Aurora get where I'm coming from because we have walked the same path. I'm not here to cause trouble or start arguments but I do have a voice and experience others should have some empathy for at least at the same level we are expected to be empathetic and understanding of the majority around here that have not had lives like we have had.

Now let's all hold hands and sing Kumbaya and let what seems to be a smoldering ember of resentment and/or failure to appreciate one or another's own uniqueness and differences just be. I don't have to understand you and you don't have to understand me but we will never find some place in the middle if we don't talk and if we don't listen.

I'll spare you all things I had written last night. Even though the questions of what happened in my life after my trans years will remain unanswered for those unfamiliar with the rest of the story, it did devolve a little too much into whining about just how alienated from this community I feel. Perhaps if I get ambitious one day, that discussion might make good fodder for it's own thread but after this one, I'm sure someone would pick that one apart too?

I like different viewpoints. It's kind of a check on me getting carried away with my own point of view. My comment was from a standing of wanting the conversation to continue. If it gets too nasty it will be shut down. That's a fact Jack. I think it is important to remember that it is easy to misinterpret text, you don't have the facial expression or voice tone to help interpret the meaning. I find it useful, for me, if I think someone has a 'beef' with me, to ask questions to clarify rather than make an accusation. (Now was that a shot at anyone on this thread? No!)
Moni
Not sure a non-believer like me can do the Kumbaya song kind of thing.

Quote from: Lisa_K on November 04, 2017, 07:59:36 PM
Alluding to soldiers being "nurturing" because they're protecting people indicates just how much you are willing distort the truth to fit your reality. OMG!

Well, in 20 years I killed exactly zero and protected a whole bunch at some risk to myself.  It was actually the one thing I have ever done that I feel actually made some real difference.  So your snark is unappreciated.

Or perhaps you're speaking from some vast repository of personal experience here?



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So the question was ask why didn't the rest of us transition at young age.  Many of us explained our childhood and the challenges we faced but these experiences seemed to be dismissed out of hand.  Some suggested it was because unlike the three here in this thread who transitioned early we didn't have support from a parent or parents.  This seems to be the logical conclusion, but we'll never know because the people who transitioned early had the support and those who didn't transition early didn't have that support.  Neither can really understand the perspective of the other on this issue because our parents reaction to the situation were totally different.

I really don't know what else can be said on this thread.  People are different and react to situations differently.  Someones life may not make sense to you, but you never walked in their shoes. 

Have a nice night,
Paige

I used to have a very low opinion of those who transitioned late in life. Not that I transitioned in my 20s but I also didn't wait until I was 60.

But in the years since I began my transition, I have personally met and befriended some amazing late transitioners who I am happy to consider my good friends.  It is easy to focus on our differences, some of which I can't comprehend, but our shared experiences, thoughtful discussions, and countless hours of face-to-face time spent together has enriched my life greatly.

When you do life together, in person, with others who are different from you, you learn to celebrate your differences instead of coldly analyzing them as you would on an anonymous Internet forum.  Understanding is not necessarily a prerequisite to love and friendship.