Quote from: anjaq on September 27, 2017, 11:51:24 AM
Hi
So, I want to get FFS done next year. The procedures I want to get are forehead reconstruction (rather subtle, coronal incision), Rhinoplasty (probably also rather subtle), Jaw and Chin (not so subtle) and hair transplants at the hairline.

No one at my workplace and few people in my regular life consider me being "trans", so I guess I am what people call "stealth" most of the time. I want to keep it that way if possible. Ideally I also do not want to disclose being one of those silly girls that go and have a lot of facial beautification surgery as it is heavily frowned upon in Germany.

So, realistically - is it possible and if so how, to avoid disclosing anything about the surgery? I can take probably 3 weeks vacation, maybe more. I think it is realistic that by then, the bruises will be mostly gone, not sure if the swelling is already down well enough to not be immediately noticed as such? Hair transplants are apparently taking a long time to fade in color.
What can I do? Any good tips on avoiding to tell about this? Are there any easy makeup tips to hide things - is it realistic to style hair in a way to safely hide the transplant area - i already have bangs... Would the bruising or swelling that still can be seen be consistent with some kind of accident one could claim to have been in during the vacation?
I thought of maybe claiming to have fallen of a motorbike while on vacation and thus explaining any swelling of the nose and chin???

Has anyone successfully hidden the fact that a FFS was done to almost all other people without taking off work for several months?

Thanks

I just said I had jaw surgery & left it up at that.  Its pretty accurate as it did fix my jaw issues.  Let the rest be conjured from their own imaginations.  Most people, honestly, don't really care in the end.

Everybody gets plastic surgery done these days. People don't need to know the exact procedures but there really isn't any reason to hide it.

Well, the thing is, I kind of went away from work for a while in 2015 and then again in 2017 for surgeries that I told my boss about. So doing it again would start to look odd, so because I have to make sure I can get the three weeks off, I told my boss I want to travel and to keep these three weeks free of appointments for me. He agreed, but getting an elective surgery is a bit different than trevelling, but ok, its none of his business what I consider travelling. Chances are, my boss will not notice a thing. He did not realize I lost 15 kg or other stuff about me or other co workers. So either he lacks the perception or never talks about such things.

In the end , its none of any of their business, thats true. So I gues sI will just say nothing and if I am asked if I have some different look, I will not go into it, unless they sepcifically ask about why my nose or jaw look different. Given that the swelling probably will make me look like pre OP and the result will be seen after some months only, maybe they dont even realize what has changed and then have a long time to adapt.
If I get rhino done, I will keep this as a backup story and say it was my choice on my vacation days to get this done as an elective surgery. They will think I have been secretly exchanged by some cosmetic surgery bunny, but well...

I am sadly very inexperienced in Makeup - I would have considered getting a concealer pen to hide bruising and then some BB cream to cover my face and the sports with the concealer - its sort of "makeup for dummies". Maybe having Makeup in the face that I dont usually have will also cause people to think this is why I look different.
Oh or I could go to a MAC store and let them do the coverup makeup for me and let them explain to me how its done and then I buy their stuff for it even if its expensive but at least I know what to do then...

First, co-workers should not ask, but they do.  Tell them it was medically necessary.  I told my co-workers I had sinus surgery, which included an incision across the top of my forward.  I found that if I went into gory details about the sinus reduction procedure, most people don't want to hear about the details.   

I returned to work 5 weeks after surgery, I still had what looks like bruising, which was really Hemosiderin staining.  It can take quite some time for your body to absorb.  I have been "stealth" for >35 years.  I had chronic sinus headaches, which was not a lie in my case.  As a knock on effect of FFS I no longer have severe sinus headaches.

Well the problem is, declaring it "medically neccesary" is not possible for me as if that would be the case, i would have a sick leave certificate from a German Hospital and doctors and would not have to declare it officially a vacation. So its pretty clear that I will have done a more voluntary thing

I wear light makeup every day for work. Start off slow with concealer and foundation with a little mascara. Then add a white eye liner for the lower lid. Then some eye shadow. Go light. Add some lipstick then some contouring. I have not gone to contouring. Nor have I gone beyond light.

I do believe the idea of sinus related surgery with some added touch up is still the best idea. it will explain the bruising.

I know it is hard to understand but there are some deep cultural differences between the way women in Germany and women in the US / elsewhere appear in public.
Anda Anja is right, cosmetic surgery is somehow frowned upon in Germany. It will certainly raise eyebrows / discussions in a German workplace.
It is also far more common for women in Germany not to wear makeup every day. This is usually something reserved for special occasions. Even daily bra wearing is not mandatory - a female in the US would usually not go out of the house without wearing a bra.

So I do understand where you are coming from Anja (ok, I was born in Germany and only moved to the US 13 years ago).

Good luck with your surgery! And I am so happy for you managing a fully stealth life for 20 + years! This is such a dream for many of us.

Yes I feel kind of stupid for doing FFS now and maybe exactly by that endangering "stealth".

Indeed, in Germany and especially in academic workplaces it is like this- most of the women wear rather neutral clothes - rarely skirts and almost never heels. Usually Makeup is, if used at all, very light - maybe mascara, eyeliner, more rarely some sort of bb cream - concealer and foundation often only when people have pimples or discolorations. The consensus among "educated people" is, that one should accept the body as it is and put value on inner values, honesty, intelligence, creativity, and not on outwards superficial appearance. Most of the women in these places are somewhat feminist. Full Makeup is more reserved for photo days, festivities or going out in the evening or on weekends.
It was already noted as unusual when I started to wear skirts or simple midi-dresses to work. People did not comment negatively but always asked me if I had a meeting or a date on that day. A colleague of mine did full makeup at a course one day and used it to work. She never did that again as she felt apparently very uncomfortable with it.

So I guess the best bet would be to say I did a nasal septum correction and sinus opening in combination with a cosmetic enhancement of the nose - this is a common way german women excuse getting a nose job. And I doubt my boss would find it a bad idea to do this on vacation time , the others may ask why I did not get sick leave if it was medically necessary, but that is of course my choice, even if they will think I am weird for doing this

I actually think it is very honorable for you to take vacation time for the surgery!

I hope everything goes well for you.  Hopefully you can update us after the surgery.

I love these discussions about cultural differences. To some degree I am happy having started transitioning in the US, hiding behind makeup increases my chances for passing while in Germany I would just be stared at.

On the downside, you are sort of expected to use Makup daily, while I went well 15 years without using more than occasional mascara and eyeliner - saves a lot of money and time and annoyance. I hate applying all that layers of Makeup.

Well, taking the vacation is not as honorable as you think. Basically I do this because I have not much choice - no doctor will write me a sick leave for a cosmetic surgery. I had sick leave for a breast surgery (implant removal) and the voice surgery because those were deemed medical necessities. But this one - most doctors rather tried to talk me out of it and certainly did not accept it as a medical surgery that needs to be done. And if it is elective surgery, no sick leave...

anjaq,

To answer your original question, since I have long contemplated doing FFS at my employer, but its a no go for me. Just by watching anecdotal results from other tg/ts people, famous and not so famous people, I have come to the conclusion, that its not possible to hide any surgery done as FFS and definitely body modifications, especially being away for 3 weeks.

I myself am strongly considering going to another agency within my local government to just start again with my transition, since well in my current agency, I'm known as a regular guy with a military background, but who obviously has some very soft features(effeminate, but not feminine enough) and its very odd to some of my coworkers(my employer respects tg/ts rights, its California), I just want to be stealth(my decision). They figure its some hormone problem, or have even figured it out, but I will not confirm it. My current workplace environment is just not that very friendly, for several reasons, which I have tested it out(a whole other topic).

Oh yea,  been on hrt about 5 years by now(i.e. was going bonkers not being on hrt)

Well, I am not trying to hide in "guy mode" - I think in that case it would be impossible to hide a FFS. I am semi-stealth for many years now, so the Co-workes dont know that I transitioned and all of that. Basically it would be considered a cosmetic surgery like the Hollywood starlets sometimes get them - new nose, nicer chin etc. I doubt the changes will be all too drastic either as I am already looking androgynous-feminine. Maybe if I choose one of the more radical surgeons like this Dr Telang in India or maybe Deschamps or Lee, it would be more noticeable though.

I've been a devotee of concealer, foundation, and contour from the very beginning.

Concealer and Foundation / Powder can do a great job of hiding facial irritation, especially from having to shave, bruises, etc. and just create the "natural, female skin" appearance. It takes practice and you have to find a formulation that's malleable -on- your skin while also matching your skin tone, but is so worth it. We call it "cover-up" where I'm from, and I daresay it's the single least-vain (or even apparent) step of make-up there is. If you put some practice into it now, you'll be able to hide discoloration, bruises, maybe even incisions if any of those are apparent.

The other big step is Contour. This is how you can minimize the appearance of swelling. Contour is about altering how the depth of the face is perceived. You can use if on the sides of the nose, for instance, to make it look narrower - and likely the same with a swollen jaw-line. Prominent forehead temples can be made to stand out less and look like they fold back into the hairline with a little contour, too.

These are makeup skills others stand no chance of noticing if you do them even moderately well, because it'll just look like a natural face. It's not mascara, eyeliner, lipstick, blush, eyeshadow, or that sort of thing. It's incredibly passive, but in my opinion, by far the most important aspect of makeup. If you're trying to stay stealth, not break any taboos, and really minimize any swelling or bruising, this is the way to go.

By six months on Hormones Replacement I think I can't hide my body change anymore, so by that time I probably out to everyone. So why stealh

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Why stealth? Because I have no intention of people seeing me as "the transgendered" instead of just as a normal person. I know some people like to stick out and be proud about it - I am not. I dont like this trans stuff, I wish it did not happen to me.

@OU812 - it sounds like a nice idea - it is not really unnoticeable unless you are extremely good at it, I guess, but it would help. I just really have to bring myself to even try it. Not sure why I am repulsed by this sort of Makeup so much. I do like the things like Mascara or Eyeliner or even some light eyeshadows or Kajal, even some lipstick, but I hate this all over the face complete coverage. Maybe its because I had bad experiences with it when I was younger or maybe its becaus eI know it ruins the skin, making it almost mandatory to keep doing it - not sure.
Most of all it seems very complicated how to find the right tones and the right products and how to apply it properly and blend it and mix it and all of that. Before doing so the skin has to be prepared and afterwards somehow finished and then you cannot touch your face all day long or it gets smudged or worn out... I considered doing a course on it, but ot sure if they are worth it. I know MAC stores offer free Makeup consultations occasionally - there is a Makeup course for a low price at a local community center here and Groupon has some deals as well. But I am not even sure that this makes sense if I am starting basically at zero. I literally dont even know how to make a light basic Makeup with just concealer and foundation - contour seems alread like great art to me .
How does one learn such things? Probably most just spend a lot of money on different products they try until they find something that matches and then spend hours and days on youtube watching Makeup tutorials and Youtube Makeup stars who explain new and better products? I am rather busy with what I do already - so I am not so sure I can and want to spend some weekends trying several Makeup tips which then will contradict themselves if I watch them from different youtubers because everyone has her own way to do it. Putting on Makeup 20 times and get it off again to tr something new... I dont really see myself doing that, which is why I was hoping for a course that has a person in it who can actually teach me by doing...

Quote from: anjaq on November 14, 2017, 02:34:46 PM
Why stealth? Because I have no intention of people seeing me as "the transgendered" instead of just as a normal person. I know some people like to stick out and be proud about it - I am not. I dont like this trans stuff, I wish it did not happen to me.

100% agree.

Anjaq: Hey I'm not going to fight you if you're taking makeup off the table. I'm saying it's your best bet if at three weeks you want to cover bruising (at least) and possibly swelling as well (if you add contour).

Makeup is a popular topic these days and it is 100x easier to learn it now than even ten years ago. Elaborate skin prep is nice but not really necessary - remember that a lot of Youtubers are selling products. An easy wipe-down with some toner and maybe a little light lotion (if you have dry skin) are plenty enough prep. Even that is not truly necessary.

I like the mineral powders best - they blend very easily as long as you get a colour that matches your skin tone. These are also decidedly not damaging to the skin, so long as you do remember to take it off by washing your face before bed.

Concealer is only for particularly bruised areas. Most women use some under the eyes to look more awake, and on any damaged areas of skin like from acne. (When I was a teenager, this was the one form of makeup I was 'allowed' to use, and I did so daily.)

Contour is a tad more involved than basic powder, but it can really diminish the appearance of swelling - the best colour is slightly darker than your powder hue. You'd essentially just apply it along the bottom of the jaw to make it look 'deeper' rather than protruding. If there's anything difficult about contour it's about not going overboard like some of the drag queens or other stage performers tend to.

I disagree that you have to be highly skilled to not look like you're obviously wearing makeup, particularly with powder / concealer, which can be incredibly forgiving as they are designed to finish looking like your natural skin.

The makeup classes and high-fashion counters where you can get a full makeover are really just about selling products as well. You can study how they apply it if you like, but they're as likely as not to be unskilled, or not your style. My cousin worked at one of those; I had him do my face once and did my best to avoid cringing when I saw results. I also remember ladies with a very garish sense of lipliner, 'airbrush' foundation, etc. You might not get what you're looking for there.

If you do decide to solicit help in person, just be up-front about what you're looking for: a powder that matches your skin tone well and is light & blendable. Same with concealer. They could probably help you with a contour shade too.

Quote from: OU812 on November 15, 2017, 04:29:19 PM
Anjaq: Hey I'm not going to fight you if you're taking makeup off the table. I'm saying it's your best bet if at three weeks you want to cover bruising (at least) and possibly swelling as well (if you add contour).

I know it would probably work. Although people would then maybe ask why I suddenly start wearing Makeup, but maybe that would then also help to explain some differences in look.
I just feel massively overwhelmed by the topic of Makeup. Just going into a store to look at it makes me cringe and want to run away - like endless number of products from different companies with all sorts of contents. I feel one needs to study this before even beginning to know how to use it and which products are best. Whenever I mention Makeup to online freinds they come up with their own favourite products and talk about toner and foundation and blending and I dont know the heck what they are talking about. Its like they are 2 steps ahead of me, recommending, like you did "mineral powder" or "matte foundation" or whatever. Some go on about "INCIs" and that one has to check the contents. I checked a bit on youtube but the people there mainly seem to be sponsored and seel some products and also thy go on like "first I quickly am doing my basic foundation Makeup" and then either a cut in the video or a fast forward that looks like they work on this for 5-10 minutes with several products, brushes, sponge... And then they go on with whatever they want to show. LOL - I already lost them in the fast forward section there.

A friend of mine keeps telling me which products are best and which mirror light I should use and which brushes - she really wants to help but of course matching the skin color can only be done in a shop or at home after ordering several tones and again the problem starts even before that. To be blunt, I would almost not even know in which order to apply the products - lol - I need something like a 101 course or preschool... This is why I thought about taking a course from someone I pay for it so they dont have to live on selling me products, but apparently they will do it anyways and just take money twice?

So overall it feels just incredibly overwhelming to learn even basic Makeup and I dont know where to start? By buying mineral powder and ask in a shop for light foundation? and conceiler and foundation makeup powder liquid or something? and then I go home with the stuff and try to figure out by trial and error how to apply those without making a mess of my bathroom or my face - its not like any of these product comes with an instruction manual on how to use it. Every stupid USB mouse has more documentation than those things. They just assume you know how to use all of this.

Quote
Makeup is a popular topic these days and it is 100x easier to learn it now than even ten years ago. Elaborate skin prep is nice but not really necessary - remember that a lot of Youtubers are selling products. An easy wipe-down with some toner and maybe a little light lotion (if you have dry skin) are plenty enough prep. Even that is not truly necessary.

I like the mineral powders best - they blend very easily as long as you get a colour that matches your skin tone. These are also decidedly not damaging to the skin, so long as you do remember to take it off by washing your face before bed.

Concealer is only for particularly bruised areas. Most women use some under the eyes to look more awake, and on any damaged areas of skin like from acne. (When I was a teenager, this was the one form of makeup I was 'allowed' to use, and I did so daily.)

Contour is a tad more involved than basic powder, but it can really diminish the appearance of swelling - the best colour is slightly darker than your powder hue. You'd essentially just apply it along the bottom of the jaw to make it look 'deeper' rather than protruding. If there's anything difficult about contour it's about not going overboard like some of the drag queens or other stage performers tend to.

I disagree that you have to be highly skilled to not look like you're obviously wearing makeup, particularly with powder / concealer, which can be incredibly forgiving as they are designed to finish looking like your natural skin.

The makeup classes and high-fashion counters where you can get a full makeover are really just about selling products as well. You can study how they apply it if you like, but they're as likely as not to be unskilled, or not your style. My cousin worked at one of those; I had him do my face once and did my best to avoid cringing when I saw results. I also remember ladies with a very garish sense of lipliner, 'airbrush' foundation, etc. You might not get what you're looking for there

If you do decide to solicit help in person, just be up-front about what you're looking for: a powder that matches your skin tone well and is light & blendable. Same with concealer. They could probably help you with a contour shade too.

Anjaq,

I 100% agree on being stealth. Some of us are not meant to be activist or "out". I don't have the stones to be "out", more likely due to my environment, I live in the rough part of town, and my coworkers don't seem accepting(not very educated/less than a 4 year college degree). Some of my peers seem to have passed high school based on charm and wiliness.

Well, I think my environment is accepting. Its not that I would face some violent transphobia , most likely. Its more that subtle thing that creeps me out. Everyone pretends to accept me just as another woman but in some situations the truth is revealed and they stumble around with sentences like "well, real woman, not that you are not real, but you know, born women have ..." - or it is assumed that since you "once were a man" you know how and what men think and do...