If you dont think male privelage exists, 99% chance you have it

Quote from: extraaction on November 16, 2017, 01:28:29 PM
If you dont think male privelage exists, 99% chance you have it

There are men with privilege, yes. But isn't it maybe just a little too broad and reductionist to say it is male, as in implying all males, privilege? (At least insofar as that privilege exceeds the privilege of women.) I would also wonder that even if you did allow for it to be something applicable to all males without discrimination, if it is, in general, far less of an issue than other forms of privilege, such as racial and class privilege. For example: A poor black male may have male privilege... but more privilege on balance than a rich white woman? Definitely not. Even if you drop one of the three criteria and place the balance one to one... Poor male vs rich female, rich female "wins". Black male vs white female, white female "wins".

Quote from: Roll on November 16, 2017, 03:10:51 PM
There are men with privilege, yes. But isn't it maybe just a little too broad and reductionist to say it is male, as in implying all males, privilege? (At least insofar as that privilege exceeds the privilege of women.) I would also wonder that even if you did allow for it to be something applicable to all males without discrimination, if it is, in general, far less of an issue than other forms of privilege, such as racial and class privilege. For example: A poor black male may have male privilege... but more privilege on balance than a rich white woman? Definitely not. Even if you drop one of the three criteria and place the balance one to one... Poor male vs rich female, rich female "wins". Black male vs white female, white female "wins".

not even gonna touch that one

Quote from: extraaction on November 16, 2017, 04:18:07 PM
not even gonna touch that one

What? I said nothing controversial in the slightest, and only mentioned a common standard that class and racial discrimination (which is inherent due to privilege granted to certain groups by the common definition of privilege) causes more harm than gender privilege, and largely has been the basis for more violence and oppression than gender. As such, there are men that despite being men do not have cultural privilege, therefore calling into question whether or not "male privilege" should be held against all men, when there are many who are disenfranchised. Not seeing why this is a "not gonna touch" issue.

Quote from: Roll on November 16, 2017, 05:21:16 PM
What? I said nothing controversial in the slightest, and only mentioned a common standard that class and racial discrimination (which is inherent due to privilege granted to certain groups by the common definition of privilege) causes more harm than gender privilege, and largely has been the basis for more violence and oppression than gender. As such, there are men that despite being men do not have cultural privilege, therefore calling into question whether or not "male privilege" should be held against all men, when there are many who are disenfranchised. Not seeing why this is a "not gonna touch" issue.

Lol no you didnt.  But Im not about to do the complicated sociological calculations just to inevitably be told how wrong I am.  And trust me, nobody wants to get me started on "race"

All this "privilege" stuff is eventually going to come down to one thing - that people are individuals and the various groups of privilege that are being conjured up is going to exhaust the average person's patience so much it will eventually be thrown out.

Quote from: Viktor on November 17, 2017, 12:20:59 AM
All this "privilege" stuff is eventually going to come down to one thing - that people are individuals and the various groups of privilege that are being conjured up is going to exhaust the average person's patience so much it will eventually be thrown out.

You think?  Im fond of "white male privelage"

Ive been clinging to as much of it as possible.  Why would I give up something that helps me?  I even bind and conduct more "sensative" business to get just a little more of it

Quote from: Charlie Nicki on October 09, 2017, 06:33:20 AM
I've heard countless women complain about being "mansplained". Even here, MTF women complain that as soon as they transition, it's like they suddenly became idiots in the eyes of men. Have never heard of guys complaining about the same, nor have I heard the term "womansplained".

That is so so true, I can only speak from my own experience, both male and female enjoyed privileges according to their gender, but definitely male privilege is more prevalent.
Not having male privilege anymore doesn't bother me, I do enjoy some female privileges, it's nice to be treated like a lady by a gentleman.
It's the inequality that bothers me and MANSPLAINED, only this week myself and hubby got a new printer, we were at the store and the sales guy when chatting with hubby completely ignored me, then I asked him a simple question about ink cartridges,he spoke to me like I was a school girl, then started to mansplain about the manual, then just rolled his eyes and said ''i've explained it all to your husband dear'' he treated me like I was a complete airhead idiot. Or resently my 3 brothers were over to our house with hubby for World Cup Qualifiers on TV, while they looked at the match I made coffee and sandwiches for them, but it was interesting, when I brought them in their coffee,sandwiches and beer, I felt they didn't want me there, this was a mans space, full of testosterone and yelling at the TV, I made an effort and ask my brother is the match exciting, he just gave me a blank stare and said  and smiled ''it's ok, ah you wouldn't understand Pauline, too complicated to explain to girls'' I was so annoyed, it was very rude, but in hindsight I think he realized his gaff and he apologize afterwards. But it does come natural to men that women are inferior, they think all we think about is hair makeup and nail polish, but they are wrong, we are more intelligence than that and we're not respect as intelligence women only seen as airhead bimbos.

Quote from: pretty pauline on November 17, 2017, 04:04:08 PM
That is so so true, I can only speak from my own experience, both male and female enjoyed privileges according to their gender, but definitely male privilege is more prevalent.
Not having male privilege anymore doesn't bother me, I do enjoy some female privileges, it's nice to be treated like a lady by a gentleman.
It's the inequality that bothers me and MANSPLAINED, only this week myself and hubby got a new printer, we were at the store and the sales guy when chatting with hubby completely ignored me, then I asked him a simple question about ink cartridges,he spoke to me like I was a school girl, then started to mansplain about the manual, then just rolled his eyes and said ''i've explained it all to your husband dear'' he treated me like I was a complete airhead idiot. Or resently my 3 brothers were over to our house with hubby for World Cup Qualifiers on TV, while they looked at the match I made coffee and sandwiches for them, but it was interesting, when I brought them in their coffee,sandwiches and beer, I felt they didn't want me there, this was a mans space, full of testosterone and yelling at the TV, I made an effort and ask my brother is the match exciting, he just gave me a blank stare and said  and smiled ''it's ok, ah you wouldn't understand Pauline, too complicated to explain to girls'' I was so annoyed, it was very rude, but in hindsight I think he realized his gaff and he apologize afterwards. But it does come natural to men that women are inferior, they think all we think about is hair makeup and nail polish, but they are wrong, we are more intelligence than that and we're not respect as intelligence women only seen as airhead bimbos.

LOL just put the worker in his place? LOL again if he thought you were just "dumb arm candy" for your boyfriend then chances are the person was attracted to you trying to sell a new printer. Actually he has to do that for an out for his own attraction to you.

Men are so easy because they love "airhead bimbos" and if they think you are it is so easy to control them or show them up. You have to decide though.

I am a blonde so I just play it up. But to me female privilege is way better than male privilege. With the female I can be lay and do not so much while males feel they have to protect me and help me. It may sound like it sux but I have taken advantage of this during my job and in a bar or club for free drinks.

Privilege does not exist unless you are rich and have a trust fund. Paris Hilton is privileged. I am not.

I've been "womansplained to", by women who assume I know absolutely nothing about women or certain topics. You're a man so clearly you know nothing about sensitivity or empathy or femininity or diplomacy. You're a man so clearly you know nothing about children. Or interior design. Or the problems women have! Or the fear women have of your kind and what it's like to fear rape. Oh, and your opinion doesn't matter because you're a white male (imagine latter two words in the horror font of your choice). And so on ad nauseam.

But such treatment is all part of male privilege I'm sure.

If they irritate me enough I could destroy their illusions of superiority on all of those points. I know all about women, their bodies and their ways, how a woman may care to manipulate a man, and exactly what it's like to be one and have that power. Hardly need be said I find the general arrogance of women toward men as distasteful as I find it in men toward women. Many think men are stupid and gullible and have an underlying total disregard for them and their sufferings, and some currently delight in the situation that has been contrived in which white men are perceived to be the worst of all creatures and the origin of all woes. Such opportunistic and unempathetic bigots disgust me. It's surprising to see so much of it within the trans community, frankly. Among people who are best positioned for a wider field of view and who clearly can see that being male or female comes with advantages and disadvantages, a division of "hard" and "soft power" if you will, but power nonetheless. Some, I think, do indeed hate men and the trans community tolerates this far more than it tolerates any dislike or disparaging of women. There is often open man-hating and hypocrisy going on and I am not cowed nor ashamed to call it out.

Anecdotal at best but I tend to find that gay transmen deny the existence of or at least the negative affects of male privilege more than straight transmen. Only bringing this up because I recently had a debate about male privilege with a small group of trans friends, both mtf and ftm. Also my observation from random convos such as this here and there. I am not in any way saying I've conducted a peer reviewed study, just an observation.

Quote from: Viktor on November 18, 2017, 03:47:44 AM
Oh, and your opinion doesn't matter because you're a white male (imagine latter two words in the horror font of your choice).

Tyranny of labels.

By reducing people to labels to begin with, we encourage that sort of division and derisiveness, and inevitably judge people and place value on them based on their labels. If I were to walk into an average gender studies class presenting as I am now, I would be shunned, a pariah in the corner of the room. And heaven forbid if I were to speak up on anything, I'd be the target of every would-be feminist in the room. Because my labels, which to everyone there would include "straight" and "cis" as well. I'd just be one in another long line of "straight white cis male" whose opinion doesn't matter. Funny enough, only 1 of those things is true, and even that is more complex than the label makes it out to be. If I were to announce to the class I am a "pansexual white trans woman", suddenly I'm a hero (TERFs aside)... yet I would still be the same exact person I was before adopting that label, so why did my opinion not matter then?.

Look. Everyone has some level of privilege. Life sux for everyone sometimes. Personally I don't believe in anyone being Privileged for anything. I have never had that male privilege, I am not rich so I don't have that sort of privilege either. I have experienced "sissy" privilege though from guys that may or may not have been gay or wanting a "sissy's" attention. And they may have been nothing but just really good guys.

But everyone has a certain level of privilege for example I can call myself a ->-bleeped-<- but don't like it when others that are not call me that. I don't mind my friends calling me that because they aren't being mean about it. So that is Trans privilege.

Life sometimes sux but claiming others have privilege is kind of a way to show envy and I envy no one. My life has been hard and I have adapted and when knocked down got right back up and approached it differently to a point that was sort of the right choice for me. Oh yeah, try that male privilege with boobs and when everyone calls you female pronouns on the phone. Clearly I have no male privilege or female privilege but I sometimes do experience privilege but it is usually LGBT type or if someone don't know they may think female type such as guys helping me because they assume.

Those that are truly privileged are those born into riches and I was not. But even they have their own sucky lives they have to deal with because everything is relevant. Life always goes on and it truly is up to the individual person to make the most of it or not. So not even the richest among us have true privilege because privilege is an illusion. Life sometimes sux but it is how well that you handle it and make the best of it and then learn from it that truly gives a person wisdom and knowing how to handle life is what makes you somewhat happy. But you also have to work on yourself too and your own perceptions of yourself. You can't be bitter of other's successes and discount your own.

I know quite a few people and some of the "richest" that I do know have more problems than I have. But What do I know because I am just a middle aged trans woman that owns a few trucks and a couple of different properties but both have mobile home instead of nice houses. Maybe when I retire but I am pretty humble. You could say I am privileged now but I am not. I just worked really hard and still work really hard and still live from check to check. But I am happy because my happiness comes from within myself and knowing exactly who and what I am on the gender and sexuality scale.

So long story short, in my opinion privilege is just an illusion. Life is hard for everyone. Male privilege? Well my BF don't feel privileged at all. I have never experienced male privilege either. Even though I have the junk, I am a little different than a man. So I had to compensate with personality, acceptance and adaptation. I ended up choosing a profession that I could express myself in and now I own my own company. Being a MAAB I chose after the military to drive trucks. Very solitary job and very accepting of men with long hair and even "sissies" like me. Up to ten plus hours a day wearing women's clothing and could hide it until I decided not too any more. That job sux sometimes but I could at least express myself while doing it. No way could I have worked in an office or other career that I had to express myself opposite of my internal identity. Not at that time anyway. So you can say I was privileged but I chose to go through hell for that so called privilege because I lived for months at a time in a space that was smaller than a jail cell. I could wear my hair how I wanted, wear my ear rings and other jewelry openly and paint my nails and so on. Now I do the same things but don't go through quite the hell anymore like dangerous roads and traffic because I own the trucks and make a living and stay at home and on the phone if need be. I wheel and deal with brokers and bigger trucking companies yet they all call me Ma'am.

So what did that last part have to do with any kind of privilege? Nothing really but I chose to do a really miserable job just for my own self expression. I have been called a "sidewalk sissy" and other names but I have also been hit upon by other drivers as either trans or woman. But it was hell and dangerous at times and I gave up a lot and lived on the road all because I wanted to express myself for myself.

Jesus, I talk too much.

Again Imma just state I get called stupid at work all day by women, look at to the younger generation, go on Facebook. You will see. I don't why people think it's easier to be a male and that we have this privalege it's not!


<Foul language removed
Admin>

Quote from: Brandon on November 19, 2017, 10:13:52 PM
Again Imma just state I get called stupid at work all day by women,look at to the younger generation, go on Facebook. You will see. I don't why people think it's easier to be a male and that we have this privalege it's not!

I wouldn't say its easier, but male privelage is real....though some males carry far more of it than others.  And I think females have their own privelage.

The reason I say its real is because I have tried to reclaim as much male privelage as possible, stopped identifying as a Woman and started to identify as a Transwoman.  I try to double dip into as many privelages as possible honestly....

When the odds are so against us we should fight with every resource we can is my opinion

Quote from: extraaction on November 19, 2017, 10:45:17 PM
I wouldn't say its easier, but male privelage is real....though some males carry far more of it than others.  And I think females have their own privelage.

The reason I say its real is because I have tried to reclaim as much male privelage as possible, stopped identifying as a Woman and started to identify as a Transwoman.  I try to double dip into as many privelages as possible honestly....

When the odds are so against us we should fight with every resource we can is my opinion

Hi Extraaction,

That's a really interesting idea.  It does seem to be fair in a "cis privileged" world.  Wondering if we can all agree on that  privilege?

Take care all,
Paige

Quote from: Paige on November 20, 2017, 09:54:49 AM
Hi Extraaction,

That's a really interesting idea.  It does seem to be fair in a "cis privileged" world.  Wondering if we can all agree on that  privilege?

Take care all,
Paige

Thanks Paige.  I've learned the concept over time.  Until the fight for our rights goes anywhere, for me it's just a fight for my survival and the survival of my family.

Cis privelage is a real thing for sure.  I've had a lot of pressure put on me to raise my children gender neutral, which I refuse to do.  I want them to have every chance to have Cis privelage

Quote from: Jenntrans on November 17, 2017, 04:32:36 PM
LOL just put the worker in his place? LOL again if he thought you were just "dumb arm candy" for your boyfriend
Men are so easy because they love "airhead bimbos" and if they think you are it is so easy to cont rol them or show them up. You have to decide though.

Well if he was attracted to me I didn't see it that way, I'm not young, I'm a woman in my 50s but have often been told I look much younger maybe in my early 40s, I've probably got some grey hairs, but it's dyed blonde with highlights so he probably thought I was an ''airhead bimbo'' that only has shopping shoes and dresses on my mind which I find very insulting and belittling, being judged by the color of my hair by a small minded man, and he had to have the last word, when he said hubby will explain it all to me, I just replied ''yeah thanks a bunch'' he had to have the last word and replied with a smirk  ''no problem, your welcome  good girl''  calling a middle age woman a ''GOOD GIRL'' is patronizing and condescending and very disrespectful, gosh I was fuming. Sorry for going on, my rant is over, we can discuss male privilege in a thread and then go out and live in the real world  as a woman, I think I need a stiff cocktail to calm my nerves😈

wow it's been so long since commenting here lol.

Well to add my two cents.

(1) I don't believe women are oppressed in no way,shape or form like I once have.

(2) I do believe there's degree of privilege for men but also females too.

(3) Females in THIS GENERATION and living in the United States or Canada are far from disadvantaged.

Female privilege is strong and real.

Quote from: meatwagon on October 09, 2017, 07:26:49 AM
most other things that are considered "privilege" on one side tend to be broad generalizations which have opposite reflections on the other side, a similar advantage for every disadvantage and vice versa.  that's going to happen when you have groups that occupy two different roles in society and have two different sets of expectations placed on them--as well as naturally distinct behaviors and things one will be more likely to do than the other in the same situations.  there are always exceptions and overlaps, though, and things one person sees as privilege will be seen as a disadvantage by someone else. 

I wholeheartedly agree with everything meatwagon said. Of course there is such a thing as male privilege. On the other hand, you cannot honestly discuss male privilege without mentioning female privilege too, which is something that is quickly dismissed more often than not.

I grew up in a destructive household where my mother often assaulted my father. I know from several first-hand accounts that violence from women against men is not as rare as we think it is. There are many other examples which suggest that yes, women experience difficulties, but so do men.

I am not all that for the "which has it better" or "who is more privileged" discussion. I think to really be able to discuss this, people need to keep an open mind and be willing to consider the other side of the coin as well. The only way equality can be achieved is by paying attention to both sides.

Transitioning has helped me a lot in seeing both sides of the coin. Back when I thought I was female, I never hung out with men and talked about these issues the way I can now. Having honest conversations with them has made me realize that men´s rights are frequently viewed as having less importance than women´s rights.

Keep in mind I´m merely answering the OP´s question. I have no intention of derailing the conversation into a contest to see which gender is worse off.