Quote from: arice on September 21, 2017, 07:43:39 PM
Forgive my misunderstanding... I got hung up on the first paragraph where you said the opposite...

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Oops, I thought I hit reply but I guess I lost my post.

It's no problem if you misunderstood. I guess my first paragraph sounds a little contradictory but I didn't mean that people need to be aware of the way they dress or present affects others because it's harmful. They just have to be aware that others might not understand. Women who have a butch style have to be prepared to be misgendered, trans men who don't quite pass yet have to prepare themselves to be misgendered and so on. That's what sucks but it's the world we live in. Not everyone is as educated about these things as they should be. On the other side of the coin the people who do the assuming and accidental misgendering should be aware of how what they say can affect the people they're misgendering. They're the ones who need to educate themselves. That was the point of my second paragraph. I'm not sure if that makes more sense or not.

Quote from: Contravene on September 26, 2017, 06:35:27 AM
Oops, I thought I hit reply but I guess I lost my post.

It's no problem if you misunderstood. I guess my first paragraph sounds a little contradictory but I didn't mean that people need to be aware of the way they dress or present affects others because it's harmful. They just have to be aware that others might not understand. Women who have a butch style have to be prepared to be misgendered, trans men who don't quite pass yet have to prepare themselves to be misgendered and so on. That's what sucks but it's the world we live in. Not everyone is as educated about these things as they should be. On the other side of the coin the people who do the assuming and accidental misgendering should be aware of how what they say can affect the people they're misgendering. They're the ones who need to educate themselves. That was the point of my second paragraph. I'm not sure if that makes more sense or not.

It does and I agree with you completely.

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If you don't want women wearing men's clothes, you should talk to clothing manufacturers into making men's clothes more expensive, less durable, and less comfortable, and definitely get them to stop including usable pockets!

I was talking to one of my bi friends, who's married to a man and a mother, about this and she shared that she doesn't appreciate that just because she likes wearing flannel and jeans she gets read as lesbian.

While I do think lesbians like myself should be able to wear whatever we want, I do now think it's weird how hard-programmed people are to see women wearing men's clothes as automatically lesbian.

There's also a similar issue where so many people co-opting the lesbian aesthetic (flannel, backwards baseball cap, etc) along with the trans community becoming more visible has contributed to what's called 'lesbian erasure' - the disintegration of a recognizable and distinct lesbian culture.

It's a complicated topic, and something that plays at multiple aspects of my identity.

Quote from: Averyel on September 26, 2017, 04:10:35 PM
...
There's also a similar issue where so many people co-opting the lesbian aesthetic (flannel, backwards baseball cap, etc) along with the trans community becoming more visible has contributed to what's called 'lesbian erasure' - the disintegration of a recognizable and distinct lesbian culture.

It's a complicated topic, and something that plays at multiple aspects of my identity.

Cultural erasure?  Try being a femme lesbian.  The cultural erasure and denial of validity can be intense.  (For extra fun, add in being clocked and thrown out of women's spaces.)

I really do wish people could respect other people AS PEOPLE, rather than painting little boxes around each of us and electing to interact only with one set of boxes and no others.  I think I am actually a pretty nice person, but I typically don't get a chance to interact with others because I'm in their wrong box. 

Add in that the box I am painted into by others severely limits the kinds of interactions I can have, and, well, it really is irritating.  "This is Michelle, our token trans person."  "Oh, my cousin is gay.  Do you know him?"

It really is annoying.

The reality is that when you are different you stand out, that goes for these categories as well as many others. Do you need to be prepared for that? As far as can yes, but in the end standing out is not all bad.

I could give you many instances where my fairly unique look etc, were advantages and it drove people to want to know me and interact with me. As a people person, that is awesome.

Our society is more diverse than in any point at least going back to the pre-christian era and that diversity, nudged along by things like globalism, the internet, entertainment and media came in a large part, by people stepping out and saying.... "Nope i am not going to let that cultural constraint stop me from what i want to do " Forget wearing wool skirted swimsuits into the ocean i am baring my legs....

Our society is by no means complete and people always push back on changes. I like to call those folks "cultural antibodies" and then seek out the new and changed things and try and squash them. That rarely works though. Humans are strong and addicted to change.

I've heard this topic being brought up in other spaces before, but I've never had much of an opinion on it. As far as I know, I was never seen as a butch lesbian in my early transition/pre-t, but rather as an androgynous goth person, and passed about 50% of the time back then. Maybe me mostly having been around in goth/synth/metal circles, very few assumed my sexuality. However some were surprised that I was into men as a trans guy, if I told them. I don't have any issues with whatever anyone is wearing/wants to wear style wise. More so other people have had issues with the styles I've been wearing, for various reasons. I do however understand the frustration in being mistaken for what you're not, especially if it happens often (like with any form of misgendering), but I wouldn't blame the butch lesbians, or anyone for that matter. I think people will always have wrong assumptions about other people regardless of how well we all try to portray our messages. I mean, if it's not one thing people get wrong, it's something else. (Just something I learned from being bullied in my childhood, actually.)

Quote from: Contravene on September 26, 2017, 06:35:27 AM
Oops, I thought I hit reply but I guess I lost my post.

It's no problem if you misunderstood. I guess my first paragraph sounds a little contradictory but I didn't mean that people need to be aware of the way they dress or present affects others because it's harmful. They just have to be aware that others might not understand. Women who have a butch style have to be prepared to be misgendered, trans men who don't quite pass yet have to prepare themselves to be misgendered and so on. That's what sucks but it's the world we live in. Not everyone is as educated about these things as they should be. On the other side of the coin the people who do the assuming and accidental misgendering should be aware of how what they say can affect the people they're misgendering. They're the ones who need to educate themselves. That was the point of my second paragraph. I'm not sure if that makes more sense or not.

The ignorance out there is incredible. I have a Co-worker that calls transgender/transsexual people ->-bleeped-<-s. He's younger than I am. He's also a born again. My fervent desire for these people is that someone in their family, immediate, even better, come out as trans.


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Quote from: Averyel on September 26, 2017, 04:10:35 PM
If you don't want women wearing men's clothes, you should talk to clothing manufacturers into making men's clothes more expensive, less durable, and less comfortable, and definitely get them to stop including usable pockets!

This comment is really ridiculous and feminist manifesto in a nutshell.
Why not just make women's clothes comfortable by making them baggy and cheap? Lol
Doubt most women would gravitate to it if it was like that anyway.
Making men's clothes less comfortable is like saying let's make whites slaves so they'll understand how black people feel and won't make comments on racism.

Why do you people feel men should be made uncomfortable just to pander to female suffrage?

I hate being seen as a lesbian more than being seen as a straight woman tbh.
Not their faults though. It's their rights, but that being said I can see how some people don't understand why some lesbians don't transition to men or feel trans.

One of my best friends is a lesbian, and she refers to her junk as a (manhood), she prefers we call her bro and not sis and if nobody's around, she'll go in the men's restroom.

I wonder if she's considering transitioning but I would never mention to her because of how she reacts when someone asked or if someone "sir" her.

I honestly can't believe that this is a genuine conversation that people still have.

Quite frankly, a lot of us wouldn't be alive if we were forced to dress a certain way by the gender police. Let's not forget that.

Quote from: AquaWhatever on December 31, 2017, 03:21:58 PM
Making men's clothes less comfortable is like saying let's make whites slaves so they'll understand how black people feel and won't make comments on racism.

Why do you people feel men should be made uncomfortable just to pander to female suffrage?

As a black person this is an absolutely ridiculous statement. For all I know you're also black, and if you are it's even more egregious. The two things you are comparing are so far apart in every way possible it's not even funny.

I agreed with your position in your post about the NB/GC issue but here it seems you're reaching to make your point. This is what I mean about opposite sides of the same coin. It legitimately seems as though your contempt for women is not altogether different from the very anti-men sentiment you crusade against. You're not much different than those lady folk you have disdain for.

Quote from: AquaWhatever on December 31, 2017, 03:27:56 PM
I hate being seen as a lesbian more than being seen as a straight woman tbh.
Not their faults though. It's their rights, but that being said I can see how some people don't understand why some lesbians don't transition to men or feel trans.

One of my best friends is a lesbian, and she refers to her junk as a (manhood), she prefers we call her bro and not sis and if nobody's around, she'll go in the men's restroom.

I wonder if she's considering transitioning but I would never mention to her because of how she reacts when someone asked or if someone "sir" her.

No. She isn't. Because she isn't trans. She's a masculine female. Which is a thing and she has every right to be who she is. Perhaps she prefers male terms for certain things because she feels she does not have a third option. Some NB folks oppose the way we self identity. We know first hand how frustrating and anger inducing that is. Why turn around and question the identity of others then? Is there any gray area anymore or is everyone always stubbornly on one side or the other? We all exist. We all self identity. We are all legitimate.

There are masculine women. There are effeminate men. They are not all trans. And that is ok. Anyone who is trans and feels threatened by the existence of these folks has issues that go way beyond the argument being p1ut forth by the OP!

Quote from: CMD042414 on December 31, 2017, 11:30:15 PM
No. She isn't. Because she isn't trans. She's a masculine female. Which is a thing and she has every right to be who she is. Perhaps she prefers male terms for certain things because she feels she does not have a third option. Some NB folks oppose the way we self identity. We know first hand how frustrating and anger inducing that is. Why turn around and question the identity of others then? Is there any gray area anymore or is everyone always stubbornly on one side or the other? We all exist. We all self identity. We are all legitimate.

There are masculine women. There are effeminate men. They are not all trans. And that is ok. Anyone who is trans and feels threatened by the existence of these folks has issues that go way beyond the argument being p1ut forth by the OP!

Masculine females and feminine men. In my opinion they are still on the transgender spectrum. In the case of a butch lesbian, they are, IMO, more male gender, female external sex and lesbian sexual orientation. In our society, being a Tomboy or butch is more acceptable than a man being effeminate and this has consequences to self-identity. The fact is that internal gender identity, external gender expression, sex characteristics, sexual orientation and emotional/romantic attraction are all separate characteristics that can seemingly be at odds at times or not. How someone identifies is up to them, but all of us humans fall somewhere on a spectrum in each of those categories and more regardless of what we say we are. To put it another way, masculine female is not such a big deal, but sexual orientation may be for that person. Being transgender or on the gender spectrum isn't a discrete binary. All humans fall somewhere on it and some don't understand the differences in those different categories within themselves and choose something that has meaning to them.


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Quote from: CMD042414 on December 31, 2017, 11:20:37 PM
As a black person this is an absolutely ridiculous statement. For all I know you're also black, and if you are it's even more egregious. The two things you are comparing are so far apart in every way possible it's not even funny.

I agreed with your position in your post about the NB/GC issue but here it seems you're reaching to make your point. This is what I mean about opposite sides of the same coin. It legitimately seems as though your contempt for women is not altogether different from the very anti-men sentiment you crusade against. You're not much different than those lady folk you have disdain for.

I'm mixed, and my point is how stupid statements like these are, I'm obviously not comparing the two lol.
I don't go around posting anti women stuff, I post against things I find stupid. If someone made this same statement about women I would say the same but that doesn't happen now does it?

But God forbid we all not think the same.

Quote from: CMD042414 on December 31, 2017, 11:30:15 PM
No. She isn't. Because she isn't trans. She's a masculine female. Which is a thing and she has every right to be who she is. Perhaps she prefers male terms for certain things because she feels she does not have a third option. Some NB folks oppose the way we self identity. We know first hand how frustrating and anger inducing that is. Why turn around and question the identity of others then? Is there any gray area anymore or is everyone always stubbornly on one side or the other? We all exist. We all self identity. We are all legitimate.

There are masculine women. There are effeminate men. They are not all trans. And that is ok. Anyone who is trans and feels threatened by the existence of these folks has issues that go way beyond the argument being p1ut forth by the OP!

I don't feel in the slightest threatened by them, again I'm stating how I understand why some cis people get confused by over the top butch women.
There's being masculine and beyond that.
Why do you feel the need to call your private a let's say typical male organ if you're female?
It's cool by me, but it's bound to confuse people.
And it's stupid to get mad if someone doesn't get it, or they're confused by it.

Quote from: AquaWhatever on January 01, 2018, 07:33:36 PM
I don't feel in the slightest threatened by them, again I'm stating how I understand why some cis people get confused by over the top butch women.
There's being masculine and beyond that.
Why do you feel the need to call your private a let's say typical male organ if you're female?
It's cool by me, but it's bound to confuse people.
And it's stupid to get mad if someone doesn't get it, or they're confused by it.

My point is exactly. It makes no sense and people get mad when people wanna question it. I do not get it.

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