Quote from: NickSister on March 05, 2008, 01:29:58 PM
My take on Pica picas comments is that I think it is possible for us to not know and accept our own internal identity and this manifests itself as gender confusion. Unless you are aware of the possibility of there being something other than male or female it is not exactly easy to spontaneously realise you are not male or female in terms of gender identity. I assumed I was male for a long time and what I was feeling was the same as what all males felt. I guess it took a 'gender crisis' to realise otherwise.

But was this 'gender crisis' prompted by some outside non-gender related source - a crappy childhood or some other trauma? Or was the crisis purely gender-related in nature? See, I'm just not buying that 'an unusual upbringing or tragedy' is required for realization of one's gender identity. Sounds rather absurd. It screams Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome rather than elightment of one's gender identity.

Quote from: Nero on March 05, 2008, 02:45:03 PM
But was this 'gender crisis' prompted by some outside non-gender related source - a crappy childhood or some other trauma? Or was the crisis purely gender-related in nature? See, I'm just not buying that 'an unusual upbringing or tragedy' is required for realization of one's gender identity. Sounds rather absurd. It screams Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome rather than elightment of one's gender identity.

In my case it was an internal crises - purely gender related. The internal pressure built to a point where I could not go on identifying as I had. Something had to give. I agree with what your saying. But I guess it is possible something external might spark the realisation e.g. having gender issues and then going to a forum and discovering there are people that identify as androgyne and feeling at home. This is not the same thing as having a crappy childhood or some other trauma though...

What I meant was that the androgyne can wander around confused and needs some form of reflection or some push to make them pinpoint  or discover their androgyny. That it is possible for androgynes to never discover themselves and to always feel lost and what is needed is an event or a set of circumstances to start the process of self realisation and actualisation.

Quote from: Pica Pica on March 05, 2008, 05:44:55 PM
What I meant was that the androgyne can wander around confused and needs some form of reflection or some push to make them pinpoint  or discover their androgyny. That it is possible for androgynes to never discover themselves and to always feel lost and what is needed is an event or a set of circumstances to start the process of self realisation and actualisation.

I guess there's an upside to being an introspective introvert, then. Reflection comes naturally to me, albeit usually long after the fact. I'm a bit slow on the uptake, but I often continue to rethink things over and over. Discovery of my sexuality and gender identity were not really brought on by specific events, unless those events were so subtle I didn't notice them as discreet events.

I spend a lot of time talking, and even, arguing with myself. Perhaps those are the events?

Quote from: lady amarant on March 05, 2008, 03:49:13 AM

Quote from: Rowan_Danielle on March 05, 2008, 03:14:13 AM
Gender would be more of a construct than sex because you start life as a blank tablet, socially and mentally, and your personality is built up through interaction with people and yourself.

We don't start out with a blank slate though. Gender is seated in physical structures within the brain, just as sex is seated in physical structures within the body. And because those two components differentiate at different times during foetal development, the chance for a disconnect between the two slips in.

This could imply that there is biologically based gender and socially based gender, with some interaction between the two.  These genders also interact with the physical structure of sex.

When the three are not in synch, you have the potential for problems.

Quote from: Pica Pica on March 05, 2008, 05:44:55 PM
What I meant was that the androgyne can wander around confused and needs some form of reflection or some push to make them pinpoint  or discover their androgyny. That it is possible for androgynes to never discover themselves and to always feel lost and what is needed is an event or a set of circumstances to start the process of self realisation and actualisation.

I'm not sure I agree completely. I don't think I had any critical event that made me realize my androgyeny. I was just me, doing my thing. Someone gave me a push to try and find my label (it was also a slight push to see if I might happen to be fully TG, which I turned out not to be), but it was not a strong push, it was more of a "hey, you should go check out susans". And at that point I put a label on what I was. It didn't actually change my behavior, or how I identified myself. All it did was gave me the correct words to explain myself, it helped me gap that language barrier.

I think that MOST people probably do have a bit more of an 'identity crisis' about their gender.

Much of the brain is based on chemicals, and electric impulses. So I think much of our personality is hard wired into our chemistry and electronics. But I think much of it is what we learn as being acceptable, and our personal experiences.

Quote from: Kir on March 06, 2008, 06:11:09 PM
Much of the brain is based on chemicals, and electric impulses. So I think much of our personality is hard wired into our chemistry and electronics. But I think much of it is what we learn as being acceptable, and our personal experiences.

I think our gender identities could be either hard wired or constructed based on our experiences or a combination of the two.  I think it's probably different for each person.  I didn't have any sort of crisis that led me to know that I was different...it was more a collection of subtle things that I'd noticed which made me realize that I was not binary.  And then I had to go on a little gender journey to figure out I was androgyne. 

Social constructs are like chains or handcuffs.  They make me feel suffocated and trapped.  The sooner we do away with them, the better.

Quote from: Jaimey on March 08, 2008, 06:06:53 PM
I think our gender identities could be either hard wired or constructed based on our experiences or a combination of the two.  I think it's probably different for each person.  I didn't have any sort of crisis that led me to know that I was different...it was more a collection of subtle things that I'd noticed which made me realize that I was not binary.  And then I had to go on a little gender journey to figure out I was androgyne. 

Social constructs are like chains or handcuffs.  They make me feel suffocated and trapped.  The sooner we do away with them, the better.

After reading all of these posts and discussing this again with my wife, it seems that gender is both constructed and biological.

I am the sum of my chemicals. My wife hates this idea, but I find it liberating. Biologically, I have my gender. But, it is through constructs that I can describe it. Concepts can only be described with language. Language is constructed, too. Many things that I think of as being masculine or feminine are so because of social constructs. I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing. It is just a thing.

But, like many things, it can be made bad or good, depending on who uses it and how. There are those who use the concept of gender to oppress others. I speak from experience, though my experiences have likely been less traumatic than others.

Quote from: Jaimey on March 08, 2008, 06:06:53 PM
Social constructs are like chains or handcuffs.  They make me feel suffocated and trapped.  The sooner we do away with them, the better.

I can't agree with you there.

Nearly everything decent about life is a social construct (although often a social construct stemming from a biological imperative).
Love is a social construct, family, entertainment, stories, religion and belief, politeness, breakfast, art, respect...don't get rid of those.

Quote from: Pica Pica on March 08, 2008, 08:51:09 PM

Quote from: Jaimey on March 08, 2008, 06:06:53 PM
Social constructs are like chains or handcuffs.  They make me feel suffocated and trapped.  The sooner we do away with them, the better.

I can't agree with you there.

Nearly everything decent about life is a social construct (although often a social construct stemming from a biological imperative).
Love is a social construct, family, entertainment, stories, religion and belief, politeness, breakfast, art, respect...don't get rid of those.

I meant socially constructed gender roles...  The other stuff is fine...usually. 

I agree with Jaimey. Breakfast needn't always be two eggs, ham, and hash browns. I have a mother who served me reheated spaghetti bolognese for breakfast and referred to cereal as 'poison'. We have, at least in Massachusetts, expanded the definition of family in an effort to break some chains. Constructs should be models to accept, modify, or reject, not strait jackets.

Jaimey, be free!
Simone

Quote from: Simone Louise on March 09, 2008, 06:32:12 PM
Jaimey, be free!

I'll do my best!!!  We'll change the world, one androgyne at a time!!!  wOOt!   

*gets off soapbox*


In all seriousness, I agree.  We should be allowed to be free and be ourselves without worrying about what everyone else will think or do to us.

Quote from: Pica Pica on March 08, 2008, 08:51:09 PM
Love is a social construct, family, entertainment, stories, religion and belief, politeness, breakfast, art, respect...don't get rid of those.

When I think about how I feel for my wife, my kids, and my friends, I can't seem to get my head around the idea that Love is a construct.

Religion is more complicated matter. If by the word "religion" you mean organized and codified religious pracitices (Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Wicca, Buddhism, etc), then I'd agree with you: these things are constructed. But if by the word "religion" one means the sense that there is Something Else out there, that, to me, is similar to Love and is not a construct.


Posted on: March 10, 2008, 08:14:26 AM

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Quote from: Jaimey on March 09, 2008, 08:38:34 PM
We should be allowed to be free and be ourselves without worrying about what everyone else will think or do to us.

Truer words were never spoken.

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on March 10, 2008, 09:33:58 AM
Religion is more complicated matter. If by the word "religion" you mean organized and codified religious pracitices (Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Wicca, Buddhism, etc), then I'd agree with you: these things are constructed. But if by the word "religion" one means the sense that there is Something Else out there, that, to me, is similar to Love and is not a construct.

I see this as the difference between spirituality and religion.

Quote from: NickSister on March 10, 2008, 02:28:23 PM

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on March 10, 2008, 09:33:58 AM
Religion is more complicated matter. If by the word "religion" you mean organized and codified religious pracitices (Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Wicca, Buddhism, etc), then I'd agree with you: these things are constructed. But if by the word "religion" one means the sense that there is Something Else out there, that, to me, is similar to Love and is not a construct.

I see this as the difference between spirituality and religion.

Hmm, you might be right about that.