transgender seems like a neurological case of intersex as I unederstand it

Quote from: dmj23 on January 15, 2018, 08:02:00 PM
yeah I think that because in the case of androgen insensitivity syndrome they are immune to testosterone so are their brains so that's self explanatory then with swyer's syndrome they don't an sry gene to function as male. In my case I have indeed at least functioning sry gene proteins etc... The thing is most of my genome is xx and the rest is xy 9% or so. My body isn't immune to testosterone it just has a very little of what it's working with generally speaking. But I do produce a lot of testosterone for a female

Supposedly the majority of people with Swyer's have a missing SRY gene, however no matter what causes it, if testicular dysgenesis occurs, then a genetically male fetus will develop as female. XYSuz (one of the ladies in those videos) has Frazier syndrome, which, although it prevents the testicles from developing,  is caused by a mutation on chromosome 10 I think, so has nothing to do with the X or Y chromosomes. Her Y chromosome is completely normal, but nonetheless she's developed as female.

Whether you're XX or XY has no bearing on which sex you develop as. That appears to be entirely dependent on hormones. It's just that the vast majority of XX people develop ovaries and XY people testicles, and the vast majority of the time those organs function as they should throughout prenatal development, so we have the illusion that XX = female and XY = male. In fact, it's XX = ovaries (most of the time), and XY = testicles (most of the time). Everything else is down to hormones.

Quote from: HughE on January 17, 2018, 05:32:51 PM
Supposedly the majority of people with Swyer's have a missing SRY gene, however no matter what causes it, if testicular dysgenesis occurs, then a genetically male fetus will develop as female. XYSuz (one of the ladies in those videos) has Frazier syndrome, which, although it prevents the testicles from developing,  is caused by a mutation on chromosome 10 I think, so has nothing to do with the X or Y chromosomes. Her Y chromosome is completely normal, but nonetheless she's developed as female.

Whether you're XX or XY has no bearing on which sex you develop as. That appears to be entirely dependent on hormones. It's just that the vast majority of XX people develop ovaries and XY people testicles, and the vast majority of the time those organs function as they should throughout prenatal development, so we have the illusion that XX = female and XY = male. In fact, it's XX = ovaries (most of the time), and XY = testicles (most of the time). Everything else is down to hormones.

https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/fraser-syndrome/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraser_syndrome

It doesn't show anything on fraser syndrome about developing as female so I am not sure how much I believe that.

In my case it hasn't been that at all I have ovaries and xx chromosomes. And I know a case where the people with cais identified as male not female

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20358272

But like I said I think for me for whatever reason I knew I was male before any diagnosis I just didn't understand how and that was confusing to the point that I rather hide it than actually be open about it. So no in some cases some people do identify as male despite the disorder it just depends on the person. I think there's a connection in my case with having xx/xy karyotype and having a male identity. I think it has to do with having sry genes that are functioning considering one part of one's body could be predominantly one genotypes and another part the other genotype. Chimerism though is hard to understand then swyer syndrome or complete androgen insensitivity syndrome is. But imo I feel it has affected my gender identity. Because given if the lesser contributing member had a full genotype of its own and survived that person would be a regular man. And I would be a regular female 100%. Rather than female in some parts and male in other parts. You see someone with swyer syndrome or cais function as female as a whole as they are. While someone with chimerism xx/xy will have some parts that are xx and other parts that are xy. And the two genotype contributing would be fully functioning members of the opposite sex had they survived early in the pregnancy etc....

Quote from: dmj23 on January 17, 2018, 09:35:12 PM
https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/fraser-syndrome/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraser_syndrome

It doesn't show anything on fraser syndrome about developing as female so I am not sure how much I believe that.

In my case it hasn't been that at all I have ovaries and xx chromosomes. And I know a case where the people with cais identified as male not female

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20358272

But like I said I think for me for whatever reason I knew I was male before any diagnosis I just didn't understand how and that was confusing to the point that I rather hide it than actually be open about it. So no in some cases some people do identify as male despite the disorder it just depends on the person. I think there's a connection in my case with having xx/xy karyotype and having a male identity.

Not all swyers have missing sry genes ... just look it up by google Because the SRY gene is on the Y chromosome, Swyer syndrome caused by SRY gene mutations is described as having a Y-linked inheritance pattern. When Swyer syndrome is associated with an MAP3K1 or NR5A1 gene mutation, the condition is also usually caused by a new mutation.  from https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/swyer-syndrome   Sometimes there are mutations, double copies, insertions, deletions, etc.. of the genome on the SRY too. 

There are also cases of swyer where they may not have been born completely female genitals, or they might have a functioning uterus, or they might not.. or might have a vaginal dimple, or a fully formed vagina, etc.. etc..

I was diagnosed as gonadal dysgenesis with mullerian structures intact, yet that's not my full story either because the endocrinologist stated I had a form of partial androgen sensitivity based on my hormonal studies.. which itself isn't accurate because then I'd actually have testosterone.   Its a huge mess

Intersexed to me basically means something didn't quite go right at birth.. and that's ok. Most of us things didn't go 'right' at birth or else we wouldn't be questioning this now would we  

In the end its not whatever diagnosis or genes or whatever that tells you who you are. YOU tell you who you are.  A diagnosis helps to understand health complications & long term risks though.  Its all a voyage of discovery.

I know but not every condition is the same swyer syndrome like I said is one person with some mutation that affects the sry from being affective. My situation is different. I have a form of chimerism xx/xy like I said before chimerism is hard to understand for some and is not at all like cais or swyer syndrome.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/46,_XX/46,XY

As you can see the cause for xx/xy is different from the conditions you are mentioning. It affects people on varying levels. So no one really knows what it can't or can affect.


I have a I guess mild form of this condition that's what my doctor suggested and that's what I was referencing since I am not one with swyer syndrome or cais. I was born female in appearance at birth but identify as male and have close to 10% xy genotype.

Quote from: Doreen on January 17, 2018, 09:44:10 PM
Not all swyers have missing sry genes ... just look it up by google Because the SRY gene is on the Y chromosome, Swyer syndrome caused by SRY gene mutations is described as having a Y-linked inheritance pattern. When Swyer syndrome is associated with an MAP3K1 or NR5A1 gene mutation, the condition is also usually caused by a new mutation.  from https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/swyer-syndrome 

There are also cases of swyer where they may not have been born completely female genitals, or they might have a functioning uterus, or they might not.. or might have a vaginal dimple, or a fully formed vagina, etc.. etc..

I was diagnosed as gonadal dysgenesis with mullerian structures intact, yet that's not my full story either because the endocrinologist stated I had a form of partial androgen sensitivity based on my hormonal studies.. which itself isn't accurate because then I'd actually have testosterone.   Its a huge mess

Intersexed to me basically means something didn't quite go right at birth.. and that's ok. Most of us things didn't go 'right' at birth or else we wouldn't be questioning this now would we  

In the end its not whatever diagnosis or genes or whatever that tells you who you are. YOU tell you who you are.  A diagnosis helps to understand health complications & long term risks though.  Its all a voyage of discovery.

For me at birth everything was fine and in this sense the same can be said for someone with cais or swyer syndrome because many people if not most people with an intersex condition don't have ambiguous genitalia.


For me my diagnosis shed light on myself because in many ways I don't feel trans and so for me I thought I was just crazy but then I realized what really happened which was really fulfilling to be aware of. Plus I always have issues with my cycles which has a lot to do with the physical health of my situation

Quote from: dmj23 on January 17, 2018, 09:35:12 PM
https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/fraser-syndrome/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraser_syndrome

It doesn't show anything on fraser syndrome about developing as female so I am not sure how much I believe that.

It's Frasier syndrome, not Fraser syndrome.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frasier_syndrome

Quote
In my case it hasn't been that at all I have ovaries and xx chromosomes. And I know a case where the people with cais identified as male not female

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20358272

In nature, there's exceptions to every rule. Maybe that person is a chimera, with their somatic cells all containing the CAIS mutation, but the cell line that gave rise to their brain having a functional androgen receptor gene, with the result that their body didn't masculinize but their brain did. Maybe there's some other explanation. In any case, that person is an exception. The vast majority of the thousands of CAIS women worldwide have feminine mannerisms, behaviour etc, and a female gender identity, as those YouTube videos show. If the Y chromosome gave you a male brain, then most CAIS women would behave like men and have a male gender identity. According to the scientific literature, CAIS women seem to almost universally be feminine women with a female gender identity (like the ones you see on YouTube).

Compare what happens with CAIS with what happened to David Reimer for instance. After his penis was destroyed in a botched circumcision, he was given a female body through surgery while he was still an infant. He'd had had a normal male prenatal development though, with androgen exposure while his brain was developing. Despite looking like a girl and being raised as female, he never fitted in as female, and ended up reverting to living as a man as soon as he was old enough to do so.

Confirming that it's hormones and not genes that determine both your physical sex and the sex of your brain, experiments have also been conducted on animals, where female fetuses were exposed to testosterone during their prenatal development. These experiments show that just administering testosterone to the pregnant mother can cause a female fetus to undergo physical male development (if the exposure occurs early in the pregnancy), or develop a male brain (if the exposure occurs during the later stages of the pregnancy). In fish, you can even cause complete sex reversal by exposing newly hatched fish fry to the appropriate hormones.

I've been trying to find scientific research showing that the Y chromosome can influence your brain's sex independently of hormones, but there doesn't appear to be any solid evidence that it can. It all seems to be down to hormones.

XX/XY chimerism can be a cause of intersex, but the way it does it is through you developing ovotestis, or gonads containing a mixture of ovarian and testicular cells. This can lead to you having hormone levels that are intermediate between male and female during the time your prenatal development is taking place. So again, it's down to hormones, not genes.

Quote from: HughE on January 20, 2018, 09:48:30 AM
It's Frasier syndrome, not Fraser syndrome.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frasier_syndrome
In nature, there's exceptions to every rule. Maybe that person is a chimera, with their somatic cells all containing the CAIS mutation, but the cell line that gave rise to their brain having a functional androgen receptor gene, with the result that their body didn't masculinize but their brain did. Maybe there's some other explanation. In any case, that person is an exception. The vast majority of the thousands of CAIS women worldwide have feminine mannerisms, behaviour etc, and a female gender identity, as those YouTube videos show. If the Y chromosome gave you a male brain, then most CAIS women would behave like men and have a male gender identity. According to the scientific literature, CAIS women seem to almost universally be feminine women with a female gender identity (like the ones you see on YouTube).

Compare what happens with CAIS with what happened to David Reimer for instance. After his penis was destroyed in a botched circumcision, he was given a female body through surgery while he was still an infant. He'd had had a normal male prenatal development though, with androgen exposure while his brain was developing. Despite looking like a girl and being raised as female, he never fitted in as female, and ended up reverting to living as a man as soon as he was old enough to do so.

Confirming that it's hormones and not genes that determine both your physical sex and the sex of your brain, experiments have also been conducted on animals, where female fetuses were exposed to testosterone during their prenatal development. These experiments show that just administering testosterone to the pregnant mother can cause a female fetus to undergo physical male development (if the exposure occurs early in the pregnancy), or develop a male brain (if the exposure occurs during the later stages of the pregnancy). In fish, you can even cause complete sex reversal by exposing newly hatched fish fry to the appropriate hormones.

I've been trying to find scientific research showing that the Y chromosome can influence your brain's sex independently of hormones, but there doesn't appear to be any solid evidence that it can. It all seems to be down to hormones.

XX/XY chimerism can be a cause of intersex, but the way it does it is through you developing ovotestis, or gonads containing a mixture of ovarian and testicular cells. This can lead to you having hormone levels that are intermediate between male and female during the time your prenatal development is taking place. So again, it's down to hormones, not genes.

no not true. I don't have ovotestes. And having xx/xy chimerism actually makes you intersex no matter what your hormone levels are. I was told this specifically by my doctor. And honestly I had my levels checked and they're from what the gynecologist said within range.

And like I said I knew I was really male before any test showed this. There's obviously a correlation between the two. That's my experience and for you to act like that's not my experience is just the same as someone to discount your experience.

As far as cais women they aren't men. Clearly. Their genetic make up is female. Yeah I said it their genetic make up is female. Reason I said this and am saying it now is because women with cais have a genetic make up that makes them develop as female because of their genetic make up therefore their brains will function the same. Their y isn't a male y chromosome that's why it doesn't function like male y chromosomes do. They don't even have body hair and have very high pitch voices. And they have hips narrow shoulders etc.... Now as for me my y does function like a male y functions as I do have functioning sry genes and androgen receptors etc... Only difference with me and another male is I have less cells to make up a full male genotype. Had I had a full xy genotype and I'd be a 24 year old biological man fully xy with a fraternal sister who was full xx. This is why I have masculine traits like narrow hips and broad shoulders and a deeper voice and hirsutism etc... Because unlike women with cais I can process androgen despite having ovaries I do have more T than the average ciswoman does even naturally. So like I said before don't compare me to someone who's ar is impaired. Because mine is fine. That's not what makes me intersex. Of course things are going to be different depending on what condition you have.I don't have testicles or ovotestes or high t or gonoadal streaks. But yes I am still intersex as there are many other intersex conditions out there. Maybe you should look them up before telling me how or who and what I should be and act like. Do you see that you've become what some people speak against in this community? Seriously?

btw stop deducing women to their genitals. And implying women with cais are really men. That makes me uncomfortable. Women with cais if left alone function like women do without medical intervention. And they go through a typical puberty that women do they're even shaped like women are. The only difference is they're bigger than women in their families. They don't even grow body hair it's clear they're more feminine than women who are not intersex. Especially since these women can not receive any androgen. You can't compare a faab person with hirsutism and a male habitus body to someone like that because of course clearly one person has more symptoms that are in common with men and more likely will identify with them than someone who outwardly shows they have no exposure to androgen. So that would actually apply to non intersex faab people as well. I remember hearing from one woman with cais that she can go a month without a shower and not stink because her body did not mature in this manner because she can't process androgen. Lastly a male fetus imo does not turn female if they have no androgens a woman's body isn't just having a vagina. There's a whole thing called puberty too for females as well.

Also I don't think it has to do with androgen invitro completely for everyone. I've seen articles about the digit ratio showing what possibly was the environment prenatally and guess what? I saw quite a lot of transwomen with the same digit ratio I have and I identify as male and have the expected ratio men have so does my mom and she isn't a man. I don't think that's what determines who's male or female. I think it's something naturally ingrained in you.


Also when I say for myself I identify as male I mean physically. I don't see masculine and feminine as a real thing. As in all realness it's made up. Men in the middle east wear dresses yet no one says they are feminine. The massai women in Kenya shave their heads no one says they are masculine. It's all about culture and social norms. And I really don't think anyone's born with cultural customs. I think we are raised with them and then realize which side takes up what and then identifies with it. Taking up their cultural custom is just a move to belong and fit in. So I don't think natural women or men with or without a condition are set up to do any set of things because it's all around culture. I know being intersex did not make me gravitate to wearing pants maybe not even influence my favorite colors. But I do think it influence feelings innately. That's something that couldn't be ignored and can't be overlooked

Quote from: HughE on January 20, 2018, 09:48:30 AM
It's Frasier syndrome, not Fraser syndrome.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frasier_syndrome
In nature, there's exceptions to every rule. Maybe that person is a chimera, with their somatic cells all containing the CAIS mutation, but the cell line that gave rise to their brain having a functional androgen receptor gene, with the result that their body didn't masculinize but their brain did. Maybe there's some other explanation. In any case, that person is an exception. The vast majority of the thousands of CAIS women worldwide have feminine mannerisms, behaviour etc, and a female gender identity, as those YouTube videos show. If the Y chromosome gave you a male brain, then most CAIS women would behave like men and have a male gender identity. According to the scientific literature, CAIS women seem to almost universally be feminine women with a female gender identity (like the ones you see on YouTube).

Compare what happens with CAIS with what happened to David Reimer for instance. After his penis was destroyed in a botched circumcision, he was given a female body through surgery while he was still an infant. He'd had had a normal male prenatal development though, with androgen exposure while his brain was developing. Despite looking like a girl and being raised as female, he never fitted in as female, and ended up reverting to living as a man as soon as he was old enough to do so.

Confirming that it's hormones and not genes that determine both your physical sex and the sex of your brain, experiments have also been conducted on animals, where female fetuses were exposed to testosterone during their prenatal development. These experiments show that just administering testosterone to the pregnant mother can cause a female fetus to undergo physical male development (if the exposure occurs early in the pregnancy), or develop a male brain (if the exposure occurs during the later stages of the pregnancy). In fish, you can even cause complete sex reversal by exposing newly hatched fish fry to the appropriate hormones.

I've been trying to find scientific research showing that the Y chromosome can influence your brain's sex independently of hormones, but there doesn't appear to be any solid evidence that it can. It all seems to be down to hormones.

XX/XY chimerism can be a cause of intersex, but the way it does it is through you developing ovotestis, or gonads containing a mixture of ovarian and testicular cells. This can lead to you having hormone levels that are intermediate between male and female during the time your prenatal development is taking place. So again, it's down to hormones, not genes.

djm23

I agree that social gender roles are socially created. However somewhere deep in our brains there are gender specific instincts wired in. I'm not sure even how to explain it but having lived a life experiencing the fact that my instincts, my wants, do not match my social role I was expected to be. When I speak of instinctual wants I do not mean anything logical. It is something deep in the operating system of my brain. It involves many aspects from what I can tell about myself. How I think in general is very different than men in any observed group I have known. The way guys interact with each other is always sort of foreign in a way however being involved in female social groups is mentally enthralling and leaves me with a pleasant feeling. I don't get that from male social groups. I always feel unable to properly join with their socializing. The best I could ever do is try to copy the way they talk about things and try to blend in. Its always an uncomfortable effort of a sort. It reminds me of seeing groups at work meetings. When there is one or two women trying to join in a male dominated conversation the women tend to stand back after a bit and just back away. The things guys talk about don't appeal to most women's minds. I have always found myself in similar spots. Then there are those more basic instincts. For me they have always been disjointed. I feel wants like any normal woman but have the attraction to physical females. Its really hard to reconcile these instincts in a relationship. Its also why I was alone for nearly a decade avoiding relationships. I've discussed much of this with my therapist. She commented that many women would understand what I was saying about these wants.

There are some very distinct differences between how men and women normally think. These are not learned, they are simply based on how the thoughts get processed in those specific neural networks. The "average" male and female brain have many differently wired segments that are hormonally affected prenatally, that much is known fact. The more I look into myself and the more I observe about the genders, the more I see correlations based on brain structure to be evident and observable in the behavior of most cisgender people and most transgender people.

Then of course there are those caught more in the middle. Here's the interesting thing, I can accept the reality they experience but I can't really understand it as I am very binary. So as most cis people cant understand the transgender experience, I cannot truly understand the non-binary experience.

Quote from: dmj23 on January 20, 2018, 01:55:32 PM
no not true. I don't have ovotestes. And having xx/xy chimerism actually makes you intersex no matter what your hormone levels are. I was told this specifically by my doctor. And honestly I had my levels checked and they're from what the gynecologist said within range.

Doctors often tell you things are "in range", when actually they're well outside the normal range for someone of your age and sex. Most doctors are clueless when it comes to hormone replacement and obscure intersex conditions, but rather than admit this, they'll make stuff up to placate you and make you go away.

Although it certainly can be a cause of intersex, there are XX/XY chimeras who are not intersex. Here's a couple of examples:

"A healthy, female chimera with 46,XX/46,XY karyotype."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19344081

"46,XX/46,XY chimerism in a phenotypically normal man."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6575956

There are probably many other XX/XY chimeras who are completely phenotypically normal men or women, and live their entire lives none the wiser. People usually only get karyotyped if they're born with ambiguous genitalia, or as part of fertility testing. That's mainly going to pick up the ones who are intersex, so it leads to a false impression that being composed of a mixture of genetically male and female cells always leads to intersex. Quite often it doesn't. Intersex only occurs when both XX and XY cells have got into the germ cell line. If the germ cell line is entirely composed of just XX or just XY cells, you end up with ordinary ovaries or testicles, and you develop as a completely typical man or woman.

I used to think I must be a chimera myself, because my inner sense of being partly male and partly female is so strong. However, as I found out more about how the process of sexual development takes place, I realised that something must have happened around week 16 of my prenatal development (which is when the process of building the permanent structure of the brain first gets underway), that massively disrupted my endocrine system so that, for a few weeks, I stopped producing any testosterone. Then my testosterone production recovered so that I had normal male levels of testosterone for the remainder of my prenatal development. It's given me a brain where a lot of the most primal, evolutionarily ancient stuff is female (hormone control, body language, instinctive social behaviour), whereas the more evolutionarily advanced stuff (e.g. language and conscious thought) is male.

Although I haven't been karyotyped, I can virtually guarantee it would come back ordinary XY.

I look physically feminized (I have a "eunuchoid" body structure, similar to what often happens with Klinefelter's syndrome), however I have secondary, not primary, hypogonadism, which rules out Klinefelter's. All the other conventional causes of intersex are quite rare, and they all tend to act throughout the pregnancy, whereas what seems to have happened to me is a period of massive hormone disruption in an otherwise normal pregnancy. When I found out that natal males whose mothers were given DES often had very similar social problems as teenagers to those I experienced, and often end up with hypogonadism and the eunuchoid body structure as well, it became obvious what had happened.

Quote
As far as cais women they aren't men. Clearly. Their genetic make up is female. Yeah I said it their genetic make up is female. Reason I said this and am saying it now is because women with cais have a genetic make up that makes them develop as female because of their genetic make up therefore their brains will function the same. Their y isn't a male y chromosome that's why it doesn't function like male y chromosomes do.

Believe it or not, the Y chromosome in people with CAIS is completely normal and fully functioning. Furthermore, it does what it does in the XY people who develop as male, which is to cause testicles to develop around 6 weeks after conception, and to start churning out testosterone. The sole difference between people with CAIS and the genetically male people who develop as male, is that CAIS women have a mutation to their gene for the androgen receptor, which prevents them from responding to testosterone and other androgenic hormones. As a result, all their development takes place as if those hormones weren't there. That one single difference results in a person who is, to all intents and purposes (aside from being infertile), a woman.

Yeah the way I think is indeed different from the way women think I was just saying in my experience to me there is no feminine or masculine things to me because it depends on the people. My dysphoria comes from my physique generally not on whether I wear pants or not because I feel like a person without a body generally it probably is true too. But yeah that's my experience as far as being intersex and transgender

Quote from: josie76 on January 21, 2018, 08:33:40 AM
djm23

I agree that social gender roles are socially created. However somewhere deep in our brains there are gender specific instincts wired in. I'm not sure even how to explain it but having lived a life experiencing the fact that my instincts, my wants, do not match my social role I was expected to be. When I speak of instinctual wants I do not mean anything logical. It is something deep in the operating system of my brain. It involves many aspects from what I can tell about myself. How I think in general is very different than men in any observed group I have known. The way guys interact with each other is always sort of foreign in a way however being involved in female social groups is mentally enthralling and leaves me with a pleasant feeling. I don't get that from male social groups. I always feel unable to properly join with their socializing. The best I could ever do is try to copy the way they talk about things and try to blend in. Its always an uncomfortable effort of a sort. It reminds me of seeing groups at work meetings. When there is one or two women trying to join in a male dominated conversation the women tend to stand back after a bit and just back away. The things guys talk about don't appeal to most women's minds. I have always found myself in similar spots. Then there are those more basic instincts. For me they have always been disjointed. I feel wants like any normal woman but have the attraction to physical females. Its really hard to reconcile these instincts in a relationship. Its also why I was alone for nearly a decade avoiding relationships. I've discussed much of this with my therapist. She commented that many women would understand what I was saying about these wants.

There are some very distinct differences between how men and women normally think. These are not learned, they are simply based on how the thoughts get processed in those specific neural networks. The "average" male and female brain have many differently wired segments that are hormonally affected prenatally, that much is known fact. The more I look into myself and the more I observe about the genders, the more I see correlations based on brain structure to be evident and observable in the behavior of most cisgender people and most transgender people.

Then of course there are those caught more in the middle. Here's the interesting thing, I can accept the reality they experience but I can't really understand it as I am very binary. So as most cis people cant understand the transgender experience, I cannot truly understand the non-binary experience.

I didn't say the y chromosome was not functional. I said in combination with their whole genotype they are female. Clearly it is their genes that make them female. My genotype does not make me female.

Yeah intersex does not mean you have to have some type of ambiguous genitalia it means you have some kind of ambiguity sexually in either chromosomes or elsewhere like xxy swyer syndrome. They are fully female but have xxy karyotypes. Same thing with me I am fully female have cycles etc but I have xy chromosomes




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disorders_of_sex_development
\
first one on conditions

Quote from: HughE on January 21, 2018, 12:57:05 PM
Doctors often tell you things are "in range", when actually they're well outside the normal range for someone of your age and sex. Most doctors are clueless when it comes to hormone replacement and obscure intersex conditions, but rather than admit this, they'll make stuff up to placate you and make you go away.

Although it certainly can be a cause of intersex, there are XX/XY chimeras who are not intersex. Here's a couple of examples:

"A healthy, female chimera with 46,XX/46,XY karyotype."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19344081

"46,XX/46,XY chimerism in a phenotypically normal man."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6575956

There are probably many other XX/XY chimeras who are completely phenotypically normal men or women, and live their entire lives none the wiser. People usually only get karyotyped if they're born with ambiguous genitalia, or as part of fertility testing. That's mainly going to pick up the ones who are intersex, so it leads to a false impression that being composed of a mixture of genetically male and female cells always leads to intersex. Quite often it doesn't. Intersex only occurs when both XX and XY cells have got into the germ cell line. If the germ cell line is entirely composed of just XX or just XY cells, you end up with ordinary ovaries or testicles, and you develop as a completely typical man or woman.

I used to think I must be a chimera myself, because my inner sense of being partly male and partly female is so strong. However, as I found out more about how the process of sexual development takes place, I realised that something must have happened around week 16 of my prenatal development (which is when the process of building the permanent structure of the brain first gets underway), that massively disrupted my endocrine system so that, for a few weeks, I stopped producing any testosterone. Then my testosterone production recovered so that I had normal male levels of testosterone for the remainder of my prenatal development. It's given me a brain where a lot of the most primal, evolutionarily ancient stuff is female (hormone control, body language, instinctive social behaviour), whereas the more evolutionarily advanced stuff (e.g. language and conscious thought) is male.

Although I haven't been karyotyped, I can virtually guarantee it would come back ordinary XY.

I look physically feminized (I have a "eunuchoid" body structure, similar to what often happens with Klinefelter's syndrome), however I have secondary, not primary, hypogonadism, which rules out Klinefelter's. All the other conventional causes of intersex are quite rare, and they all tend to act throughout the pregnancy, whereas what seems to have happened to me is a period of massive hormone disruption in an otherwise normal pregnancy. When I found out that natal males whose mothers were given DES often had very similar social problems as teenagers to those I experienced, and often end up with hypogonadism and the eunuchoid body structure as well, it became obvious what had happened. Believe it or not, the Y chromosome in people with CAIS is completely normal and fully functioning. Furthermore, it does what it does in the XY people who develop as male, which is to cause testicles to develop around 6 weeks after conception, and to start churning out testosterone. The sole difference between people with CAIS and the genetically male people who develop as male, is that CAIS women have a mutation to their gene for the androgen receptor, which prevents them from responding to testosterone and other androgenic hormones. As a result, all their development takes place as if those hormones weren't there. That one single difference results in a person who is, to all intents and purposes (aside from being infertile), a woman.

Quote from: HughE on January 21, 2018, 12:57:05 PM
Doctors often tell you things are "in range", when actually they're well outside the normal range for someone of your age and sex. Most doctors are clueless when it comes to hormone replacement and obscure intersex conditions, but rather than admit this, they'll make stuff up to placate you and make you go away.

Although it certainly can be a cause of intersex, there are XX/XY chimeras who are not intersex. Here's a couple of examples:

"A healthy, female chimera with 46,XX/46,XY karyotype."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19344081

"46,XX/46,XY chimerism in a phenotypically normal man."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6575956

There are probably many other XX/XY chimeras who are completely phenotypically normal men or women, and live their entire lives none the wiser. People usually only get karyotyped if they're born with ambiguous genitalia, or as part of fertility testing. That's mainly going to pick up the ones who are intersex, so it leads to a false impression that being composed of a mixture of genetically male and female cells always leads to intersex. Quite often it doesn't. Intersex only occurs when both XX and XY cells have got into the germ cell line. If the germ cell line is entirely composed of just XX or just XY cells, you end up with ordinary ovaries or testicles, and you develop as a completely typical man or woman.

I used to think I must be a chimera myself, because my inner sense of being partly male and partly female is so strong. However, as I found out more about how the process of sexual development takes place, I realised that something must have happened around week 16 of my prenatal development (which is when the process of building the permanent structure of the brain first gets underway), that massively disrupted my endocrine system so that, for a few weeks, I stopped producing any testosterone. Then my testosterone production recovered so that I had normal male levels of testosterone for the remainder of my prenatal development. It's given me a brain where a lot of the most primal, evolutionarily ancient stuff is female (hormone control, body language, instinctive social behaviour), whereas the more evolutionarily advanced stuff (e.g. language and conscious thought) is male.

Although I haven't been karyotyped, I can virtually guarantee it would come back ordinary XY.

I look physically feminized (I have a "eunuchoid" body structure, similar to what often happens with Klinefelter's syndrome), however I have secondary, not primary, hypogonadism, which rules out Klinefelter's. All the other conventional causes of intersex are quite rare, and they all tend to act throughout the pregnancy, whereas what seems to have happened to me is a period of massive hormone disruption in an otherwise normal pregnancy. When I found out that natal males whose mothers were given DES often had very similar social problems as teenagers to those I experienced, and often end up with hypogonadism and the eunuchoid body structure as well, it became obvious what had happened. Believe it or not, the Y chromosome in people with CAIS is completely normal and fully functioning. Furthermore, it does what it does in the XY people who develop as male, which is to cause testicles to develop around 6 weeks after conception, and to start churning out testosterone. The sole difference between people with CAIS and the genetically male people who develop as male, is that CAIS women have a mutation to their gene for the androgen receptor, which prevents them from responding to testosterone and other androgenic hormones. As a result, all their development takes place as if those hormones weren't there. That one single difference results in a person who is, to all intents and purposes (aside from being infertile), a woman.

but yeah you need to look up what intersex means it doesn't just apply to ambiguous genitalia. Andas much as you don't want to believe it I am intersex because I have xy karyotype.

Quote from: dmj23 on January 21, 2018, 03:55:09 PM

but yeah you need to look up what intersex means it doesn't just apply to ambiguous genitalia. Andas much as you don't want to believe it I am intersex because I have xy karyotype.

I did the karyotype test (basic one) and came back XY.  However I also had no internal male structures (as I've mentioned before).  Pretty sure that makes me some funky brand of intersexed. What they initially diagnosed is probably accurate, but I'm not holding my breath till I see the geneticist in april. 

The results from the lab suggested looking into AIS or Swyers as an explanation for my chromosomes.  FYI there are also varying degrees of Swyers, not all are born 100% female outside either.  "ambiguous genitals" applies to many conditions. .. even non ambiguous can still be intersexed and STILL be xy.   For instance if you had a penis, scrotum, 2 testes.. but had no internal male parts you'd be intersexed.   If you had labia, vaginal canal, but no uterus/fallopian tubes..walaa intersexed

Basically intersexed is having anything anatomically or chromosomal not 100% xy male xx female.  That leaves a ton of wiggle room inbetween.

Quote from: Doreen on January 21, 2018, 05:37:17 PM
I did the karyotype test (basic one) and came back XY.  However I also had no internal male structures (as I've mentioned before).  Pretty sure that makes me some funky brand of intersexed. What they initially diagnosed is probably accurate, but I'm not holding my breath till I see the geneticist in april. 

The results from the lab suggested looking into AIS or Swyers as an explanation for my chromosomes.  FYI there are also varying degrees of Swyers, not all are born 100% female outside either.  "ambiguous genitals" applies to many conditions. .. even non ambiguous can still be intersexed and STILL be xy.   For instance if you had a penis, scrotum, 2 testes.. but had no internal male parts you'd be intersexed.   If you had labia, vaginal canal, but no uterus/fallopian tubes..walaa intersexed

Basically intersexed is having anything anatomically or chromosomal not 100% xy male xx female.  That leaves a ton of wiggle room inbetween.

Yeah I agree with you. Obviously you are intersex. But I am intersex as well because close to 10% of my genotype is xy. And I have xx chromosomes. xx/xy will always go under the umbrella of intersex because you're not completely one thing. I honestly think intersex people end up intersex much of the time due to their chromosomes and genetics. Like swyer syndrome usually something inactivate the sry proteins so they can't develop male completely. Same with androgen receptors and ais. But some intersex conditions are purely hormonal or due to lack of one or the other sex organ. So not always the case. In my situation the thing that makes me intersex is my genotypes.

Quote from: dmj23 on January 22, 2018, 12:58:03 PM
Yeah I agree with you. Obviously you are intersex. But I am intersex as well because close to 10% of my genotype is xy. And I have xx chromosomes. xx/xy will always go under the umbrella of intersex because you're not completely one thing. I honestly think intersex people end up intersex much of the time due to their chromosomes and genetics. Like swyer syndrome usually something inactivate the sry proteins so they can't develop male completely. Same with androgen receptors and ais. But some intersex conditions are purely hormonal or due to lack of one or the other sex organ. So not always the case. In my situation the thing that makes me intersex is my genotypes.

I agree with you.. though there is definitely something screwy going on with my genes.. but really I don't want to say anything for certain until I see the geneticist.  I just know what the scans have said at this time really and that alone is what they've used to plop me with not 1, not 2, but 4 different Intersexed diagnosis lol. Obviously not all are right.  One is though.

Quote from: Doreen on January 22, 2018, 10:28:57 PM
I agree with you.. though there is definitely something screwy going on with my genes.. but really I don't want to say anything for certain until I see the geneticist.  I just know what the scans have said at this time really and that alone is what they've used to plop me with not 1, not 2, but 4 different Intersexed diagnosis lol. Obviously not all are right.  One is though.

yeah when I got my referral for the geneticist she sent a diagnosis xy female. That's it. But when I talked to sanders he said it was likely a form of chimerism or mosaicism. I only had two but I am waiting on seeing a geneticist too. In fact I have to go tm

You know I won't get spiritual or anything pertaining to that here. I also won't use psychological studies either here.

All I have is just one question. Who are you? I can't answer that other than for myself nor any scientist either.

Who we are is deeper rooted than the body and science whether it is peer supported or not.

But only you know who you are and never be persuaded by society and that includes science, biology, neurology, psychiatry or psychology.

You don't need excuses or proof. The proof is within you. Society and medicine is not you. YOU are you and that is all you need to be the true you. Yes I am a DES baby but I am so much more than what my mom was given to not miscarriage me. Nature allowed me to live and Evolution is natural. How many DES babies were miscarried?

I don't need a reason. Hell the only reason I need is that I Am. I am who I am and that is all I am. I would love to have an excuse though to be such a bitch but that too is on me.

We tend to see life as the human body but... what is life is beyond the human body? what if life were more about human consciousness outside the human body?  Does anyone really think their ethereal body will walk the streets of heaven? You know the streets paved with Gold where gold is no more important as clay in bricks or tar and gravel?

Maybe being trans is a wake up call to start thinking bigger in the scheme of things. Yes it sux and I ama poster girl of that but.. Who the hell am I? I am nothing. I am no one. I am just me and that is all. I am just me. I could care less about changing society because indeed it is changing now and I can't even speed it along as a whole but just in my own little world and I am doing that as much as I can benevolently. yet I refuse to be a victim too so....

So am I intersexed? I really don't know the sex I like is different than my organs of copulation. Hell women have laughed at my penis size but men have actually like it because it proved more or less that I was not a "->-bleeped-<-" because it never got hard while turned on. I am not normal as a guy. but I am a "normal" ->-bleeped-<- though.  And no I have never had HRT.

I grew small boobs during puberty yet something else never grew while turned on. I tried but it never gave nothing other than an explosion in my mind and squirted clear. I have tried straight girls that I have lied to and though maybe something would happen but all they did was laugh and part of the reason why I had to go to a different school. It sux but one of the cards we have been dealt but don't throw those cards away just yet though.... When we meet guys or girls and upfront then they love us for us and then we can enjoy the relationship in whole. That relationship may or may not last and that is always true when you are young. It is true if you are older even.

So intersexed, DES, Psychological, or whatever else, I don't care. Science can break down love within neurology and psychology but I people feel live between one another that science can't explain there are just some things that science can't explain.

So we really need a scientific excuse? Yes there are some but how about just being an individual free to choose to be true to who you are that may defy science, biology, psychology and even nature itself in a physical sense?

LOL Lady GaGa made millions on the single Born This Way yet I will tell you all for free, you are who you are and the way I put it is timeless and even part of the human condition. Born means  taking your first breath as a physical human. But there may be possibly so much more to that.

So make your own mind's up. Does consciousness survive outside the human body or does it develop within the human brain? Make up your own mind. As for me I really don't know and probably never will while breathing.

But any study, can you really legitimize the human condition? We are people and not labels or groups. some may be OK with it and some not but who cares. I don't need an excuse. All I need is a middle finger to stick up.

Quote from: Jenntrans on January 30, 2018, 02:58:43 PM
You know I won't get spiritual or anything pertaining to that here. I also won't use psychological studies either here.

All I have is just one question. Who are you? I can't answer that other than for myself nor any scientist either.

Who we are is deeper rooted than the body and science whether it is peer supported or not.

But only you know who you are and never be persuaded by society and that includes science, biology, neurology, psychiatry or psychology.

You don't need excuses or proof. The proof is within you. Society and medicine is not you. YOU are you and that is all you need to be the true you. Yes I am a DES baby but I am so much more than what my mom was given to not miscarriage me. Nature allowed me to live and Evolution is natural. How many DES babies were miscarried?

I don't need a reason. Hell the only reason I need is that I Am. I am who I am and that is all I am. I would love to have an excuse though to be such a bitch but that too is on me.

We tend to see life as the human body but... what is life is beyond the human body? what if life were more about human consciousness outside the human body?  Does anyone really think their ethereal body will walk the streets of heaven? You know the streets paved with Gold where gold is no more important as clay in bricks or tar and gravel?

Maybe being trans is a wake up call to start thinking bigger in the scheme of things. Yes it sux and I ama poster girl of that but.. Who the hell am I? I am nothing. I am no one. I am just me and that is all. I am just me. I could care less about changing society because indeed it is changing now and I can't even speed it along as a whole but just in my own little world and I am doing that as much as I can benevolently. yet I refuse to be a victim too so....

So am I intersexed? I really don't know the sex I like is different than my organs of copulation. Hell women have laughed at my penis size but men have actually like it because it proved more or less that I was not a "->-bleeped-<-" because it never got hard while turned on. I am not normal as a guy. but I am a "normal" ->-bleeped-<- though.  And no I have never had HRT.

I grew small boobs during puberty yet something else never grew while turned on. I tried but it never gave nothing other than an explosion in my mind and squirted clear. I have tried straight girls that I have lied to and though maybe something would happen but all they did was laugh and part of the reason why I had to go to a different school. It sux but one of the cards we have been dealt but don't throw those cards away just yet though.... When we meet guys or girls and upfront then they love us for us and then we can enjoy the relationship in whole. That relationship may or may not last and that is always true when you are young. It is true if you are older even.

So intersexed, DES, Psychological, or whatever else, I don't care. Science can break down love within neurology and psychology but I people feel live between one another that science can't explain there are just some things that science can't explain.

So we really need a scientific excuse? Yes there are some but how about just being an individual free to choose to be true to who you are that may defy science, biology, psychology and even nature itself in a physical sense?

LOL Lady GaGa made millions on the single Born This Way yet I will tell you all for free, you are who you are and the way I put it is timeless and even part of the human condition. Born means  taking your first breath as a physical human. But there may be possibly so much more to that.

So make your own mind's up. Does consciousness survive outside the human body or does it develop within the human brain? Make up your own mind. As for me I really don't know and probably never will while breathing.

But any study, can you really legitimize the human condition? We are people and not labels or groups. some may be OK with it and some not but who cares. I don't need an excuse. All I need is a middle finger to stick up.

Well I have a few very specific reasons for wanting to know.. in particular an organ males do not possessed identified on an ultrasound, and constant aches in that area. 

Other than that, of course, I think you are ultimately how you identify, for better or worse.   Mine has more to do with specific medical ailments than matters of theology or philosophy.   However, thats fun to get into to at times    Even if they found out I was completely trans (though I still am not buying it, too many medical mysteries and mishaps in development)... I'd accept it and live life.

I don't need a reason but the thing is I have gone to transgender support groups and I never fit well with that. Theonly thing I fit with trans as a kid for example is thinking at a later age I should probably have male parts and I always prefered playing with my male peers more even when I tried with girls they didn't really like it. For me it has always been self awareness and I never knew what that was for a long time


Symptoms of GD in children may include any of the following: disgust at their own genitalia, social isolation from their peers, anxiety, loneliness and depression.



Adults with GD are at increased risk for stress, isolation, anxiety, depression, poor self-esteem and suicide


Gender dysphoria behaviours in children can include:
•insisting they're of the opposite sex
•disliking or refusing to wear clothes that are typically worn by their sex and wanting to wear clothes typically worn by the opposite sex
•disliking or refusing to take part in activities and games that are typically associated with their sex, and wanting to take part in activities and games typically associated with the opposite sex
•preferring to play with children of the opposite biological sex
•disliking or refusing to pass urine as other members of their biological sex usually do – for example, a boy may want to sit down to pass urine and a girl may want to stand up
•insisting or hoping their genitals will change – for example, a boy may say he wants to be rid of his penis, and a girl may want to grow a penis
•feeling extreme distress at the physical changes of puberty

Children with gender dysphoria may display some, or all, of these behaviours. However, in many cases, behaviours such as these are just a part of childhood and don't necessarily mean your child has gender dysphoria.

For example, many girls behave in a way that can be described as "tomboyish", which is often seen as part of normal female development. It's also not uncommon for boys to roleplay as girls and to dress up in their mother's or sister's clothes. This is usually just a phase.

Most children who behave in these ways don't have gender dysphoria and don't become transsexuals. Only in rare cases does the behaviour persist into the teenage years and adulthood.




thout doubt that your gender identity is at odds with your biological sex
•comfortable only when in the gender role of your preferred gender identity
•a strong desire to hide or be rid of the physical signs of your sex, such as breasts, body hair or muscle definition
•a strong dislike for – and a strong desire to change or be rid of – the genitalia of your biological sex



the symptoms for me are not like this completely I don't want to kill myself because I live as a female. But I've always had a nagging sense that I am not really in the right sex basically. And most of my issues are not roles but my body clothing are just styles to me

Quote from: Jenntrans on January 30, 2018, 02:58:43 PM
You know I won't get spiritual or anything pertaining to that here. I also won't use psychological studies either here.

All I have is just one question. Who are you? I can't answer that other than for myself nor any scientist either.

Who we are is deeper rooted than the body and science whether it is peer supported or not.

But only you know who you are and never be persuaded by society and that includes science, biology, neurology, psychiatry or psychology.

You don't need excuses or proof. The proof is within you. Society and medicine is not you. YOU are you and that is all you need to be the true you. Yes I am a DES baby but I am so much more than what my mom was given to not miscarriage me. Nature allowed me to live and Evolution is natural. How many DES babies were miscarried?

I don't need a reason. Hell the only reason I need is that I Am. I am who I am and that is all I am. I would love to have an excuse though to be such a bitch but that too is on me.

We tend to see life as the human body but... what is life is beyond the human body? what if life were more about human consciousness outside the human body?  Does anyone really think their ethereal body will walk the streets of heaven? You know the streets paved with Gold where gold is no more important as clay in bricks or tar and gravel?

Maybe being trans is a wake up call to start thinking bigger in the scheme of things. Yes it sux and I ama poster girl of that but.. Who the hell am I? I am nothing. I am no one. I am just me and that is all. I am just me. I could care less about changing society because indeed it is changing now and I can't even speed it along as a whole but just in my own little world and I am doing that as much as I can benevolently. yet I refuse to be a victim too so....

So am I intersexed? I really don't know the sex I like is different than my organs of copulation. Hell women have laughed at my penis size but men have actually like it because it proved more or less that I was not a "->-bleeped-<-" because it never got hard while turned on. I am not normal as a guy. but I am a "normal" ->-bleeped-<- though.  And no I have never had HRT.

I grew small boobs during puberty yet something else never grew while turned on. I tried but it never gave nothing other than an explosion in my mind and squirted clear. I have tried straight girls that I have lied to and though maybe something would happen but all they did was laugh and part of the reason why I had to go to a different school. It sux but one of the cards we have been dealt but don't throw those cards away just yet though.... When we meet guys or girls and upfront then they love us for us and then we can enjoy the relationship in whole. That relationship may or may not last and that is always true when you are young. It is true if you are older even.

So intersexed, DES, Psychological, or whatever else, I don't care. Science can break down love within neurology and psychology but I people feel live between one another that science can't explain there are just some things that science can't explain.

So we really need a scientific excuse? Yes there are some but how about just being an individual free to choose to be true to who you are that may defy science, biology, psychology and even nature itself in a physical sense?

LOL Lady GaGa made millions on the single Born This Way yet I will tell you all for free, you are who you are and the way I put it is timeless and even part of the human condition. Born means  taking your first breath as a physical human. But there may be possibly so much more to that.

So make your own mind's up. Does consciousness survive outside the human body or does it develop within the human brain? Make up your own mind. As for me I really don't know and probably never will while breathing.

But any study, can you really legitimize the human condition? We are people and not labels or groups. some may be OK with it and some not but who cares. I don't need an excuse. All I need is a middle finger to stick up.