Hello,

I need some advice. I am hoping this is not a trigger for anyone.

I have been on full dose testosterone for just about 7 years (yes, years). I have had top surgery, bottom surgery, and a chin implant for a stronger jaw. I wear my hair short (slight thinning) and am fairly in shape. I cannot grow facial hair and am shorter - 5'6". I do wear insoles that give me an extra inch. I dress appropriately for my age. I'm 31, and dress from places like J Crew, Banana Republic, H&M.

I get misgendered almost daily, multiple times a day. I pass far less than 50% of the time. I have no clue what to do. Those around me cannot give me any suggestions because they don't see why I don't pass.

Any suggestions at all would be appreciated....

Quote from: JesseO on February 28, 2018, 12:55:30 PM
Hello,

I need some advice. I am hoping this is not a trigger for anyone.

I have been on full dose testosterone for just about 7 years (yes, years). I have had top surgery, bottom surgery, and a chin implant for a stronger jaw. I wear my hair short (slight thinning) and am fairly in shape. I cannot grow facial hair and am shorter - 5'6". I do wear insoles that give me an extra inch. I dress appropriately for my age. I'm 31, and dress from places like J Crew, Banana Republic, H&M.

I get misgendered almost daily, multiple times a day. I pass far less than 50% of the time. I have no clue what to do. Those around me cannot give me any suggestions because they don't see why I don't pass.

Any suggestions at all would be appreciated....

@ JesseO:  So sorry to hear about your "passing" experiences.   Passing is much more that appearance alone, it is also how you carry yourself and displaying self confidence and self assurance about who you are. 
I had to chuckle a little about your inability to grow facial hair... many of us MTFs would be happy to trade problems like that with you!!!   
How is your voice?  Have you made any progress there?
Does your doctor know about what you are going through?  Might be some suggestions from him/her.
Men walk, sit, and move around differently... usually with less grace.  As you know, a lot of men are not usually as neatly dressed and groomed as women... perhaps you are dressing too neatly and have your hair combed too nicely!!!!  I am possibly just kidding!!!
Without seeing your picture I really have no idea what to say next other than hang in there.  Passing is difficult for MTF transition too ... before I started living full-time I had to deal with being mis-gendered... and it was demoralizing to say the least... but I kept trying to stay positive and worked through it as I progressed with HRT and learning how to be a woman in many various aspects that are different than being a man.
Wishing you the best,
Aspiringperson

I was also going to ask how you move and your mannerism. I've been gendered male 50% of the time pre everything. Even in panties and t-shirt in the girls sauna. I have a G-cup. It is not invisible...to anyone.

It's very much about how you are. As previous reply stated, men are not always very much for making cloths look perfect. But There are fashion interested guys too though. And they are gendered men.

Is there some kind of therapist out there who can help you?

Maybe ask a friend record you on the smartphone while you're in a mall or someting? Do a private documentary. Then you can see for yourself what needs to be changed.


Tony

I've been on T for about 3.5 years now and have had chest surgery, and still get misgendered sometimes, even with decent facial hair which baffles me. I get gendered correctly probably... 25% of the time at drive throughs and on the phone. I finally realised my voice was the main problem, I ended up trying out this app on my phone that analyses and helps you train your voice. While my natural talking voice was within the male range, I spiked up to female for a few sounds in the split second in the beginning where people tend to decide your gender, and I have a more 'female' inflection in how I talk. I've been working on trying to keep it deep all of the time, but seeing a speech therapist would probably be in my best interest because I can only do so much myself. It's helped a small bit so far, at least in understanding the major factor making it hard for me.

I also seem to get gendered wrong with certain haircuts so I tend to stick with the ones that have worked in the past. It sounds like you've probably already done this though, I am just throwing it out there because as a person in a more liberal industry, my definition of 'short' men's hair is skewed and so I never know what to expect by the phrase 'short hair.'

I would also recommend possibly seeking a therapist or outside help of some sort. Friends can be hard because they know your gender, and thus don't see any 'female' in you, whereas someone who has never met you is much more easily able to see what any other outsider might see. (I had the same problem of friends not knowing what people saw to gender me wrong). I imagine speech therapists can help with the voice if that could be a factor, though I'm not sure the best person to seek out for assistance with other things. If there's any mens' fashion consultant type people (not sure what they'd be called, but to help you pick hair and clothing and things like that) they may be able to help? I wish I knew a specific type of person for that.

MeTony and I are some of the lucky ones, I'm not going to lie - I get sir'd from behind decently often at work while I'm pre-everything and don't even wear compressive bras. Looking at my legs, you'd think I was my father.

Passing it part attire, part voice, and part physical characteristics, but a lot of it is also bodily movement, and language. Do you say "excuse me, sir" or do you say "'scuse me, boss"? "That's alright", or "no worries, you're good"? W/r/t movement, do you take up space? Do you move your shoulders/back/arms more than your hips? Do you walk with your knees or your feet? What are your hands doing when they're idle? Do you touch your face or hair a lot? Men tend to move "un-self-consciously", while women move more "effortlessly". Are your movements tightly monitored when you're doing something physical? If so, stop!

If you haven't tried this, go people-watching. Grab a coffee at starbucks or something, sit down for 15 minutes and watch customers, pay attention to what the men are doing, how they're standing, where they're looking if their face isn't buried in their phone, how they set their shoulders, etc. For some of us, we've picked up on these cues naturally from an early age (and some of us went through a lot of heartache to unlearn them while we tried being women for a while), and for some of us, it's gotta be a conscious effort.

Also, you might seek out the help of a voice therapist. The one thing I can say for certain, getting chummy with the men at my work far more often than the women, is that men generally speak "sloppy", and very close to vocal fry the vast majority of the time. I also read someplace that how men and women pronounce "s" is also a kind of an unconscious clue to most ears - women, I believe, tend to produce a much sharper "s" sound at the front of the mouth, while men seem to do theirs closer to the soft palate, or flat-out voice it to the point of sounding closer to a "z".

Thank you for the words of encouragement. I will try and upload some photos later. A voice coach may be a good idea. As far as a therapist, I'm not really sure what kind to contact since the gender specialist and regular therapists I've seen have not helped.

I am not trying to minimize anyone else's plight, but to be this far into my transition when people are upset over not passing at the 6 month mark is very discouraging.

I have asked two therapists what I can do differently and both said they don't see how I don't pass. Same with my girlfriend and any friends. I'm not out at work but people know I have been mistaken for a woman and again don't get it. I actually was not ever out to my psychiatrist until a couple months ago when I needed a GRS letter. She wasn't happy, but that's irrelevant. No tips from her either.

The only thing I've ever been told is that I dress too nice and am too polite. I got this from someone I didn't disclose my status to until after the 2nd date. She said she wasn't surprised and that something was off. That something was that I was much more respectful to the waitress than what she's used to guys being and that I had really nice shoes.

I mean, I get misgendered before I talk, after I talk, any situation. I just found out yesterday that the post office I frequent has thought I was a female for the last year. About two months ago I had a security guard at my job (who started maybe 4 months ago) tell me that my transition is really impressive. Not a compliment.

I'll try watching my mannerisms. I would think that if anything, I should be mistaken for a gay man, not a woman. It's just hard when no one who knows me as male is willing or able to tell me why I don't pass.

JesseO,
I think that that is an awful situation. I know how much it can hurt to be misgendered.
I agree with the others about a voice therapist because my voice is way off and makes me feel horrible. There are also websites that talk about how you can change the way you look to look more "masculine" or "feminine." I don't remember what it was called, but you might want to look for that.

-Dylan

OP, that's awful, I'm so sorry. Also a major buzzkill to hear that people interpret being rude to waitstaff as being masculine. Effing gross.

The cause of your problem is probably very, very subtle, especially since it's not being picked up by the people who already know you and already code you masculine. And if you don't pass without even speaking, then my bet is on the subtleties of your movements and body language. I work in customer service and encounter all kinds of people: old, young, male, female, people who are probably nonbinary or at least queer, gays, lesbians... you name it, I probably see or speak to at least one every shift. Being trans myself and doing "research" by people watching, I've come to notice a lot of little things most people in these demographics do differently that have nothing to do with voice, speech, clothing, body type, or general aesthetic, and that it comes down to some of the most basic hind-brain cues. I once had a lovely conversation with someone who I was 90% sure was a trans man, and spent a long time trying to figure out why I felt that way since everything I could consciously come up with was indistinguishable from the way a cis man did it.

A few other things off the top of my head: men obviously gesticulate less when they talk, but they also move their heads less. There may also be a stiffness to your "overly-nice" masculine expression, which is something I see with butch lesbians sometimes. The stoic sort of restraint and economy of movement with them is sometimes very obviously deliberate, and easily coded as simply butch. Contrast with the way gay men move.

I don't know if I'm helping at all here, OP - mulling this stuff over aloud is helping me, at least. Going out on the town with a friend and having them secretly take video of you is probably a good idea, actually. Make sure they know to record you when you least expect it or won't notice, as that knowledge will change how you're acting.

I'd say record yourself too, on camera for your own purposes, then find some videos of cis men talking and moving and record yourself imitating one of these as best you can and compare. I've not done this myself but BT04's post made me think of it. May help you identify any visual cues you are giving off that do not look right, or to help you hone your movements. 

There's definitely a range of "female-esque" behaviors that will make you look "off" if you don't get rid of them, including speech cues (being overly apologetic, and trying to put others at ease too much with you is one, for example; which being friendly isn't a problem, there's being "too" friendly and eager to please). But it could be something as simple as having a rounder and younger-looking face making eyes appear larger etc. I've known one or two cis men with this problem, although their voices save them most of the time. 

   In my effort to possible offer more helpful suggestions about passing...  in the last few days I have been at a couple restaurants, an airport, and a shopping mall... and I can say with certainty that if one has difficulty passing one should do some very serious people watching. 
   Men and women certainly carry themselves differently when walking, sit and eat differently at a restaurant (men tend to be all spread out and almost always have there arm and/or elbow on the table), sit in a chair differently, and even talk with their hands and expressions differently among lots of other differences.   
   It is fun to watch and learn as one transitions.  It is as much about actions as it is about appearance.  Both are essential to successful passing.

I really feel for you man, honestly!!!
7 years into transition and not passing 100% must be extremely tough.
After all - everyone's waiting for that moment they will pass 100% as a guy, and that's an incentive to transition in the first place, right!

I read through all the other suggestions and must agree with them: Your passing issue must be related to body language or some subtle 'female' cues you're giving out. (Such as being overtly polite/apologetic etc.) On the other hand you do get gendered as male as well (such as on that date, even if she felt there was something 'off' - but only after you telling her you're trans).

One suggestion I can give is this: You could take a course in self-confidence (if that's an issue for you). Being very confident and natural within yourself even if you are a flamboyant 'feminine' gay guy - is the key. I agree with everything said earlier, but this might help also! You may come off as insecure in general (while walking, on a date, when talking to people...) and this may lead to people seeing something 'off' even if your friends are unable to see anything wrong. After all you must be the most comfortable around your friends. Ofc I don't know you! But being misgendered all the time must be disheartening and you might come off as insecure just bcos you're scared of it happening again.

It's similar with bathrooms: Trans people who just go in like it's no big deal usually 'pass' pretty well. If you go in slumping your shoulders as if going in for a slaughter, people 'sense' you are in the wrong place and not supposed to be there. Subtle confidence cues are also an invisible sign for people to determine how to treat you as a person in general.

So... some course about how to exude confident body language might do some good for you!

It really must be a body language or so-called 'vibes' issue!

I was gendered as a boy by strangers at 13 despite wearing make-up and a bra underneath my jacket and presenting as female, just bcos of the 'vibes' I gave out, and the way I moved, walked & talked. I passed at hairdresser's once even though I had long hair and eyeliner - just bcos of the way I carried myself in general. I talked the whole time and she saw my face up close (and no way in hell I looked like a 'man'), but I had a fairly deep, steady voice plus just my general mannerisms read 'male'.

This is really horrible how you're misgendered constantly - but it must be what I just described in reverse!   You are 7 years into T and had all the surgeries and even a chin implant - so it can't be just about looks. It must be the way you're carrying yourself. Are you confident in the clothes you're wearing? Are you 'trying' to look more masculine or do you choose clothing & a hairstyle you really like? People tend to be the most confident when they feel they look good inside. Remember to make choices that reflect your true persona.

And one more thing: There's also a chance you get misgendered bcos you are a 'late bloomer' hormone-wise! I mean... it's said that puberty (even trans puberty) can last up to 5 years until you get all the changes you will get. Are you still noticing some changes? 7 years is a lot ofc... But there's a chance you are still developing and will look more masculine after a couple of years. Just a wild guess! But thinking about it, a boy who starts puberty at 13 might still be developing at 20! And look boyish etc... And then there are guys who look fully adult at 16! 

I wasn't as long on hormones as you when I still didn't pass, but I felt really crushed when I still only passed 50-50 at 3 years on testosterone, also after top surgery. I thought it was my wide hips and lack of facial hair that made it so that half the people I met misgendered me or questioned my gender. But now, a few years later and passing all the time... although I can grow a beard now, I don't think that is why I never get misgendered anymore. I'm pretty sure it was my confidence. Cause I had tried very hard to pass by changing not just my looks and voice (pitch as well as tone/speaking pattern), but also my mannerisms and body language down to really obsessive nitpicking that exhausted me and kept me very tense. Until at some point I stopped doing that, cause after a rough patch of eating disorder brought on by dysphoria, I had enough. I slapped on makeup, saved my hair out long and stopped bothering with my mannerisms that were androgynous at best at that point (and they still are), but I didn't care. And it increased my confidence a lot.

Sure, no one thinks I'm straight and I still make an effort to hide my wide hips as well as I can with clothing, but I definitely pass as a man nonetheless. Most seem to assume I'm bisexual or gay. I'm not saying you shouldn't care or that it's in any way easy to let go of it like that. But for me it was a very necessary release that I realised I should have done years earlier, and it also helped me pass a lot better. I had only been on T for 3 years in total back then, but I had been transitioning and trying to pass for 5 years, so it was a pretty drawn out struggle for me as well. I don't know if it's something you could try, but it's a suggestion. One that pretty much is in contradiction to all other replies you've gotten so far, which is why I'll also say it's a gentle suggestion.

I am not a native English speaker too, but I hope you can understand me. So, I am shorter than you, very small framed, my voice is not masculine, I am skinny, I have a thin chin and feminine manners. I pass about 90% of time. I don't know why but Ironically, when I try to act "more masculine" I pass less. So I think the answer is the cliché: just be yourself.

P.s: I'd love to see a picture of your face surgery results

Quote from: 1234 on March 19, 2018, 09:15:32 PM
P.s: I'd love to see a picture of your face surgery results

I would love to see that too. I have a small chin and my jawline almost blends in with my neck, so I've for long wanted a chin implant too. I'm dysphoric about it, but my beard helps somewhat. I think I could possibly save up for such surgery later on in the future cause it doesn't seem to be extremely expensive, for being surgery. I've googled pictures of it though, and I think it really does give fantastic results!

Maybe that is what is doing it? I don't think too much. I just am.

Quote from: Alaskan Danielle on March 04, 2018, 09:03:54 AM
   In my effort to possible offer more helpful suggestions about passing...  in the last few days I have been at a couple restaurants, an airport, and a shopping mall... and I can say with certainty that if one has difficulty passing one should do some very serious people watching. 
   Men and women certainly carry themselves differently when walking, sit and eat differently at a restaurant (men tend to be all spread out and almost always have there arm and/or elbow on the table), sit in a chair differently, and even talk with their hands and expressions differently among lots of other differences.   
   It is fun to watch and learn as one transitions.  It is as much about actions as it is about appearance.  Both are essential to successful passing.

Interesting you should bring that up. My counselor and I talked about that very thing yesterday. She suggested going to a mall and people watch. See how the males and females move differently. Watch expressions and mannerisms. Visual cues are the quickest give away of gender.
She explained that even the way you hold your head up can betray you.

Quote from: Donna on March 28, 2018, 04:18:12 PM
Interesting you should bring that up. My counselor and I talked about that very thing yesterday. She suggested going to a mall and people watch. See how the males and females move differently. Watch expressions and mannerisms. Visual cues are the quickest give away of gender.
She explained that even the way you hold your head up can betray you.

@ Donna:  I just enjoy sitting on a bench a mall, perhaps at a food court, just sipping on an espresso or soft drink... watching people, very interesting and certainly most educational for the transitioning person. Lots of ways we can help contribute to us passing other than just our looks.   It pays to be observant.
Danielle