Quote from: Tamika Olivia on March 02, 2018, 09:40:37 PM
I do not believe that white, Western, men are the root of all problems. That position is asinine on the face. I do believe that structures such as patriarchy and white supremacy do cause problems, but that is distinct from the idea that men or white people are causing all the problems.
Then indeed you should probably have stated "white supremacy" isn't the only kind of calcified supremacy out there that affects anything or anyone significantly negatively. You dismissed black supremacy as powerless or invented, and you ignored the example I gave of South Africa presently in which black supremacy is now on the verge of confiscating the legal assets of white people living there because the (black) power structures there have decreed it, through violence as well as legal means - violence which has already taken place in Zimbabwe under similar sentiment. There's plenty of other examples as well. How about Arab supremacy? Did you know in countries like Qatar and Saudi there's plenty of present day slavery going on and a fairly open belief in racial supremacy, held in place by power structures endemic to their system? You're going to find "white supremacy" has significantly blunter teeth over here than other kinds of supremacy elsewhere and is less of a humanitarian threat to the average American or Canadian of any color, than these other kinds of supremacy to people living under them.
So that said, to bring up "white supremacy" when some truly horrific things are going on in the world in the name of other racial biases and calcified systems needs an appendix.
QuoteThe patriarchy is a societal level problem, and both men and women can be responsible for it's continued existence.
Let me hear your concise and precise definition of exactly what "The Patriarchy" is first, and I will figure whether or not your accusation of it in the present is based on something plucked from a feminist manifesto or something that reflects the unideal reality of the male-female power dynamic.
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All of us are required to dismantle it. My one concession to the point of view mentioned, is to say that men, as the primary beneficiaries under patriarchy, are in the best position to help dismantle it.
Please do explain how are men the primary beneficiaries of "The Patriarchy", when it is women for whom the civilized state will invariably provision for over and above men when the two in need are compared, will excuse from warfare and backbreaking labor in most first world nations, has granted reproductive rights to in most first world nations, has granted the vote and the right of divorce to in most first world nations, will devote more medical resources and testing to, generally abhors and prosecutes violence and rape upon in most first world nations, and where women have begun to outnumber men in academia attendance and school performance, and so on and so on. If you mean nations less developed, then by all means you have a point. In which case you really ought to be critiquing those and not the ones afflicted by the old "white supremacy", because these happen to have the best conditions and opportunities in the world thus far for women at this time. Patriarchal systems of control certainly exist in places like Pakistan. You'd do well to criticize those more harshly because they actually deserve dismantling.
But yes, tell me what exactly we need to dismantle here in the West? An example, may be in order... how about "rape culture"? We don't have a rape culture. A rape
culture - to be precise - is a
culture in which nobody, including the law, will bat an eyelid if someone is raped, because it's considered normal or just. We do not have a rape culture because nobody here thinks rape is "normal" or just. We have a few morons on social media who insult women or laugh at them if they happen to be raped, and places like frats exposed where it's happened in frequency. But when it happens, rapists are more often than not punished by law if it can be proven that they raped. We don't have an institutionalized rape culture like Pakistan or Yemen where young boys get raped and young girls get married off to old men. Much of the Middle East has a culture in which is a woman walks down the street improperly dressed, being raped is expected, and furthermore if you are raped, you will probably be punished for having been raped.
That is a rape culture. Over here, it is not considered legally or culturally acceptable to rape someone for what they wear, nor are you going to be punished by law specifically for having been raped.
What we have here is the odd comment by people: "oh look what she was wearing, she was asking for it." But
most people will be horrified when a rape happens, and will want the rapist jailed. This is nothing like the real rape cultures that exist on this planet and anyone with sense can see it. In some of those other countries and cultures mentioned most people will not be on the side of the victim. But what do I see day in day out? People over here complaining "The Patriarchy" of the West is a full-blown rape culture and it's all men's fault. These people need a spell in certain parts of Africa or the ME for some perspective on what a culture that doesn't give a damn about women being raped really looks like.
The Patriarchal system of the West is so effectively oppressive toward women you very nearly had a female president of the USA. In a real misogynist Patriarchy, not only would the word
misogynist not be a bad one (but probably a badge of honor), but they wouldn't let a woman have a sniff of a back seat of power. Like in most of the Middle East.
Patriarchal systems exist, but if someone's of the mind the ones of the West are a bigger problem and worthy of greater criticism and dismantling than these others I'm afraid they need their bloody head checked. They
are being dismantled. You can see it year by year as more women enter politics, academia, managerial positions and traditionally male-dominated fields here. They are NOT being dismantled in the Congo, the Yemen, et al. Priorities.
QuoteYou do seem to focus on the plight of women in majority Muslim nations. I too worry about these women, but I think the optimal solution is to dismantle the patriarchy. Islam doesn't cause these things, the patriarchy is these things.
You need to learn about Islam. Islam is not "just" a religion, it is often also an entire political and cultural system designed to propagate itself. Why do you think nations that become majority Islamic always end up under Islamic laws? Or why Muslims who turn from the faith are so commonly ostracized by their families and friends? Non-political Muslims exist, but if you look carefully you will see many, many of them are highly political and they consider themselves Muslim before anything else, and become considered Muslims by birth, not choice. I know lots of Muslims. I grew up around them and I know how it works. Sunni/Shia Islam is the near-perfect definition of a Patriarchal system, and it rarely comes without demanding its ummah adopt the belief that men do x and women do y. Why is it that "Muslim feminists" only seem to get a platform in non-majority Muslim nations to even speak about their situation? Because that system where found in its purest forms will not accept women leaders and women imams. The fact you find liberated Muslim women over here is no reflection whatsoever on the reality for women in a majority-Muslim nation. That you seem to think Islam doesn't subscribe to and perpetuate Patriarchal systems in and of itself is frankly surprising. Read the Koran. Visit a Muslim forum and hang around on it for a while.
QuoteThe fourth paragraph kinda showcases a misunderstanding of how these systems work. White supremacy is not a cultural force in the nations listed, because white people are not in power in them. These power structures tend to solidify at the national level, because nations are the highest level governments. America has to deal with white supremacy because in its history white people have historically made up the ruling class, and the structures that benefit us have calcified as a result. White supremacy didn't form in Japan, because there is no historical white ruling class for it to benefit, and thus no mechanisms to preserve it in the high levels of power. The patriarchy is a separate structure, and promulgated in more nations, because men are everywhere, and have acted as the ruling class in most nation's through history. By the way, this is likely due to biology. Men, with their generally superior strength, gained prominence due to physical dominance in the earliest eras of human history.
Looks like you missed my point - that was the point. Whiteness has nothing to do with Patriarchal systems, which is why I asked you what "white supremacy" had to do with anything in the first place, because I sure am sick of hearing "white men" being chucked as ringleaders into discussions about biological "evilness of men" as feminists tend to see it. If you are talking about America specifically, perhaps. But "The Patriarchy" as you call it - if invented by men for men - should be ubiquitous and therefore little to do with white supremacy. You should find it in every nation of every color. And yes, I was the one who stated it was biology. So next comes the billion-dollar question - how do
you propose to "dismantle" Patriarchal systems rooted in biology? You are suggesting we dismantle human biological traits, brain wiring and instinct, are you not? And how will this be accomplished?
QuoteParagraph six requires some work. Specifically, I need to explain what I mean when I say white supremacy. It's not a hate group, it's a series of interlocking social systems that benefit people who are racialized as white. It's made up of things like the school to prison pipeline, the lack of representation of people of color in media, the drug war, racist policing practices, and so on. These are evident. They are entrenched in the system of the US, and they advantage white people, and predominantly harm black people. These are white supremacy, and that's why I say black supremacy isn't a thing. There is no comparable series of social structures that benefit black people at the expense of other people. And there is no power to institutionalize such such systems. I know there are black people that hold prejudice against white people, but that isn't the same as a system of supremacy.
Ah yes. But you are forgetting that it's recently becoming very fashionable to hate white people and demand reparations from them, isn't it. White guilt has become "a thing", as had the natural backlash from it. While a situation similar to South Africa or Zimbabwe is not likely given that blacks will remain minorities in America for some time or perhaps permanently, it's certainly going to lead to something. One thing is for sure, recent US identity politics has focused so much on color and entitlement instead of treating race as the thing we should
not be obsessing over, it has absolutely failed to bring people together. Martin Luther King is likely revolving in his grave at this point.
QuoteFinally, Islam is just a religion. Without the patriarchy, it's no more harmful to women than anything else. Dismantling the patriarchy will do more to protect women in your country, and everywhere, than falling to Islamophobia.
Islam will not dismantle its Patriarchy any time soon. It is built on it. If Islamic countries and Islamic people wish to do away with Patriarchy, they are going to have to do away with following the rule book itself, which if you know anything about Islam is a little more tricky that being a lapsed Catholic or something like. And as I said it's not "just" a religion like the others. There is more going on than people being free to play around with Islam when they are born into Islamic families, Islamic communities or Islamic countries. They cannot easily just walk out of them if they see fit to. Again, where you find 'liberated' Islamic women wearing and doing whatever they want is typically not in the hardcore heartlands of Islam because it's not permitted. If there's to be a place for them to practice Islam how they see fit over here then this also needs to be a place where Islam is not permitted to take over. Ask any Muslim that's fled a country of Muslim law and custom and come here to escape it, and whether they think we should embrace more Islam.
To namedrop Christianity at this point as a calcified system of oppression and then claim Islam is somehow the lesser or more impotent of these two "evils" when compared is ridiculous. For one thing Christianity has largely lost its teeth in the West, socially, politically and culturally, when directly compared to Islam which still appears to be going through some evolution into myriad dangerous and oppressive factions in dozens of countries, with violence on the rise within them. Obviously it's not the majority religion in the US, but even among Muslim communities in the US Muslims are less free to leave and pursue other lifestyles (including LGBT ones) without danger, and you ought to know it. People on these boards have attested to persecution and fear under Islam as well. Honor killings and arranged marriages are hugely prevalent in Muslim communities compared to Christian ones, including in Western countries. Christianity has its problems but it's nowhere near as problematic as Islam. You seem to simply be shrugging off the problem because Muslims happen to be an American minority. I hardly need to say more but you will not be welcome in Saudi Arabia for what you are, and you might even be jailed for setting foot there. In Iran if you were gay you'd be required to transition or face severe penalties and possibly death for pursuing a gay relationship. You certainly wouldn't be culturally accepted as an open transsexual in most Muslim communities or cultures. Christians generally don't love us either, but they also don't tend to have cultural/legal permission to throw us from rooftops, imprison, beat or hang us, do they.
I'm interested to know just how humanity will overcome biological gender roles and the associated programming. Because I've talked with a lot of people on the subject, a lot of them thinkers and philosophers, and nobody as yet as a tangible solution for the problem, short of abusing the human body and mind itself or reducing us to living in a system of equal poverty of finance and opportunity. As most of us here are well aware, men and women are different and they do have different modes of life and thinking often enough. You can't "fix" the "wage gap" if the problem is that women prioritize their work-life balance or children in favor of less work hours in a first world free market system, unless you force companies to pay for women to not work, which they won't. Or force the state to do it, but I'm not sure that's a good idea either because people can and do abuse concessions. You can't "fix" the fact that women are less competitive in general than men and therefore tend to avoid the high-paid risk based jobs or those that require assertive haggling for pay, unless you start dosing them up with testosterone, or else ruin the competitive system we live under that rewards effort and merit. It's certainly true that most of the building of society has been and is still being done by men. How will you get more women raising skyscrapers, fighting wars, cleaning sewers, working oil pipelines if they just don't want to? And so on.
Personally I think that's doomed to failure.
