Hi,

I was born female and am in the process of exploring my gender (probably non-binary).
Of course, many many different things make me question my gender but one of these things is :

I am misogynist/macho

Please, don't throw rotten fruits to me. 

I get along well with women as I get along with people in general, and I'm generally very very appreciated by them.
I don't meet new women thinking "Oh my God, another dumbass again..." , I don't reject or humiliate them. I share amazing relationships with some of them, no problem in everyday life. I know that every individual and every gender taken as a whole when we generalize) has its qualities and defects. And on a daily basis , of course, I don't even think about the fact it is a woman "so she will be like that", or he is a man so "he will be like that"...

It's just that, taken as a whole, I am like completely desperate by womanhood on different areas. On different subjects, I find again and again the same schemes from them, the same thinking system. Schemes, behaviors, and thinking/emotional systems which are fundamental and are obviously really part of feminity itself. Unfortunately, it's things that I HATE, find stupid  and WEAK (although they are also very strong of course on other areas).
And I can not relate at ALL. Because I feel and work like males on these subjects. It's Things that make me want to dissociate from the female gender.

Of course, I find some male systems bad as well but it does not have the same effect on me at all. For women I really can't relate and stand it, and then I get digusted to be basically part of this gender.

Is it a feeling that you can relate to, and if so, was it one of the sign, you think, that you actually were a FtM?

I'm not ftm but mtf and maybe not who you're asking this. I think you should talk about this with an experienced gender psychologist. Although based on what you mentioned I don't see how your gender has to do with these things? They're ideologies and you can disagree with what you want...

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I can't answer your question with the small amount of information you have provided. What I can say is because your questioning, it's likely that you are transgender. The problem is deciding if your FTM or non binary. I have two links I give to people who are questioning that may be of help. The first is our WIKI which  will explain the transgender categories. "The transition channel" will is more structured for a somebody transitioning MTF or FTM so if you see yourself in the videos, you might be FTM.

Quote from: Optera on March 04, 2018, 04:19:30 PM
It's just that, taken as a whole, I am like completely desperate by womanhood on different areas. On different subjects, I find again and again the same schemes from them, the same thinking system. Schemes, behaviors, and thinking/emotional systems which are fundamental and are obviously really part of feminity itself. Unfortunately, it's things that I HATE, find stupid  and WEAK (although they are also very strong of course on other areas).
And I can not relate at ALL. Because I feel and work like males on these subjects. It's Things that make me want to dissociate from the female gender.

Of course, I find some male systems bad as well but it does not have the same effect on me at all. For women I really can't relate and stand it, and then I get digusted to be basically part of this gender.

This whole section that I've quoted is super vague and needs clarification. Can you give some examples of schemes, thinking systems, and how you see things more like a man?

If you mean what this meme conveys, then yes, I've felt it, and yes, it's part of what made me suspect I was trans:



That said, I have no problem with women and I don't find them weak or stupid at all.  It's also worth noting that lots of cis women are reposting this image, so it's not just a trans guy thing. 

It's hard to say exactly why I never fit in as "one of the girls," and I do better with groups of guys.  It's a lot of things, I imagine.  If you could say more specifically where you feel the disconnects between yourself and femininity in general, I could say more easily whether I can relate or not. 

I see where you're coming from.
And I shall add my two cents.

I'm probably considered misogynistic myself because I acknowledge
that women and men more often than not do think and behave differently.

For example, I could not stand my old boss and her work ethics.
In fact, I thought she was awful. My female coworkers thought she was fine.

My new manager is more exciting to work with, and has better ethics imo at least
And my female coworkers think he's in a hole.

It has nothing to do with her being female, but I notice this same pattern in past female bosses and coworkers that they all have thought the same, had the same ethics and it annoyed me to no end.


Now that I have entered the "male realm" I noticed guys take more risks, and are more creative.
Women tend to play by the rules and keep structures or in other words "if it's not broke don't fix it". Or "It worked before, it'll work again".
This is not the same for all females because I had two female bosses who were hella fun to be around and work with. But most of them I did not get along with.
It's been that way since childhood.

I also understand why women tend to keep structures or play by the rules
And I don't find them weak for doing so, I think they just want things to stay place to avoid the pressures and guys tend to not think about that until after it happens.

Again, I am going by my experience.

When I was a child I was a huge misogynist lol. I literally did think girls were weak (except me)
And I was a lot worst with female authority back then.
My therapist said that was my way of projecting my anger and resentment towards my body and femininity on to them for enjoying their body or being female.
I also grew up having problems with women/girls in my family.

My mom thinks that's why I'm trans. And it's not, I think either way I would've been trans.
Not a sucky one though lol.

Quote from: AquaWhatever on March 05, 2018, 12:58:18 AM
I see where you're coming from.
And I shall add my two cents.

I'm probably considered misogynistic myself because I acknowledge
that women and men more often than not do think and behave differently.

For example, I could not stand my old boss and her work ethics.
In fact, I thought she was awful. My female coworkers thought she was fine.

My new manager is more exciting to work with, and has better ethics imo at least
And my female coworkers think he's in a hole.

It has nothing to do with her being female, but I notice this same pattern in past female bosses and coworkers that they all have thought the same, had the same ethics and it annoyed me to no end.


Now that I have entered the "male realm" I noticed guys take more risks, and are more creative.
Women tend to play by the rules and keep structures or in other words "if it's not broke don't fix it". Or "It worked before, it'll work again".
This is not the same for all females because I had two female bosses who were hella fun to be around and work with. But most of them I did not get along with.
It's been that way since childhood.

I also understand why women tend to keep structures or play by the rules
And I don't find them weak for doing so, I think they just want things to stay place to avoid the pressures and guys tend to not think about that until after it happens.

Again, I am going by my experience.

When I was a child I was a huge misogynist lol. I literally did think girls were weak (except me)
And I was a lot worst with female authority back then.
My therapist said that was my way of projecting my anger and resentment towards my body and femininity on to them for enjoying their body or being female.
I also grew up having problems with women/girls in my family.

My mom thinks that's why I'm trans. And it's not, I think either way I would've been trans.
Not a sucky one though lol.

Thanks everyone for your replies.
I wanted to stay vague to avoid getting into debates about what I think and all get mad haha, in order to keep focus on the feeling only but I understand you need some clarifications.

So 1 : it is not an ideology that I choose. I did not enter life thinking women are like this or like that, and I am not surrenderred by misogynistic people, far from that. I was very open.

2 : I acknowledge that what I will say can apply to some men too and that not all women are the way I will describe.

3 : I am glad feminity exists. It is vivid, bright, magical.

Now the points that make me want to dissociate from womanhood :

- Victimization. Women always considered they are victims when they actually are just passive. They feel entitled and don't understand why it does not work their way. They expect society or others to change in order to please them  instead of taking by themselves the things they feel they should have. For instance, if I consider I am not payed enough at work I will go negociate and defend my case. Other women : no, it is just unfair. It can apply to everything in life.

- They claim that they don.t want to be considered as sexual objects by men, but when I see dowtowm half of them with their butt half naked in their shorts, I understand it is because they are way better to do it by themselves.

- The fact that they don't only want to be pretty (which is completely fine) but SEXY. This is something I find ridiculous.

- The fact they think are the only ones to suffer in life because of their gender, like males don.t have to face their gender struggles too => Women are so self centered and narcissistic (I am narcissistic too though lol).

- Contrary to most women I feel that being a woman brings a lot of privilege. So easier to just find a job when you are a pretty woman, more than if you are a pretty boy, either with female or male bosses. And in general, people are protective and wants you to be good when for males they just don't care.

- VERY IMPORTANT : they enter and stay so easily in abusive toxic relationships and act like they have no choice, like again they are just victims and will never leave UNLESS another male attractive enough comes to save us.

- In general, they are waiting for a savior, waiting for him to give a sense to their life, to fill it, to take them emotionally in charge.

.- I know so many women who, once they have a baby claim : .."ok now I don't care about my man, he gave me my baby, that.s fine". And the man becomes just a provider.

- They are so prompt to bash men but when male do just an inch of it on women, women pull their feminist flag. It always go in one way.

- So many claim to be victims and are manipulative snakes bringing the chaos from behind.

- So many would do anything for attention ( I think it is something natural, due to reproduction needs of our specie) but don't want to assume the outcomes of this attention, so they send mixed signals, do mind games which is sooo unbearable.

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Thanks, Optera, now I have a better idea where you're coming from.  I disagree with many of your statements, but I won't go point-for-point with you about "Yes, women are" and "No, women aren't," because I doubt I would convince you, and the whole thread would go up in flames if we started that.

Instead I'll agree that everybody gets warped by the rigid gender roles that society assigns.  Women can become passive victims, and men can become blustering bullies.  It doesn't have to be that way, but it's like that right now, and we have to deal with it. 

I don't really want to speak in generalities about what it "means" to be a woman or a man, so I'll just post about myself here.  It sucks to grow up with any set of cookie-cutter expectations based on what you have between your legs, but growing up with expectations that assume an image of you that you don't even recognize is worse.  As a kid, I believed I was a girl because I was told I was a girl, but I never felt like I was on the same "team" as my female peers.  Most of them didn't want to play my kind of games, and weren't interested in the kinds of things that were important to me.  We were stuck looking at each other across some great divide, with nothing in common.  As a result, most of the girls harassed me, the lovely little darlings.

At puberty there were a new set of criteria to fail.  I never felt comfortable being "pretty," much less "sexy."  I liked boys and wanted their attention, but couldn't capture it no matter what I tried.  Instead, they all went for the cute, feminine girls--generally older versions of the kids who had picked on me.

I won't bore you with my struggles in adult life, but I can say that I probably lost one job in part due to not being able to make the female-to-female alliances that drove that workplace.  It's enough to make me resentful as ****, and I can totally see how someone in my position could direct that resentment toward women as a class rather than at the system that perpetuates this gender **** in the first place.  Personally, I lay blame at the feet of hundreds of generations of unhealthy tradition rather than on women as individuals.  Nobody asks to be a victim or frightened of life. 

The positive side of holding society accountable, rather than "those other people over there" is that I'm part of society, and can therefore be part of a solution.  There's nothing I can do to make any individual small-minded woman stop being small-minded, but I can change my own attitudes and behavior so that I'm not small minded, and am not treating other people in a small-minded way.  That doesn't exactly change the world overnight, but it's better than saying "I can't fix it--the problem is with those other people." 

So while I can't in good conscience join in a conversation about all the terrible things about women, I'm totally up for talking about how ****** it is to be hammered into a gender role that doesn't really suit anybody well, and me less than most.

Quote from: The Flying Lemur on March 05, 2018, 04:31:43 AM
Thanks, Optera, now I have a better idea where you're coming from.  I disagree with many of your statements, but I won't go point-for-point with you about "Yes, women are" and "No, women aren't," because I doubt I would convince you, and the whole thread would go up in flames if we started that.

Instead I'll agree that everybody gets warped by the rigid gender roles that society assigns.  Women can become passive victims, and men can become blustering bullies.  It doesn't have to be that way, but it's like that right now, and we have to deal with it. 

I don't really want to speak in generalities about what it "means" to be a woman or a man, so I'll just post about myself here.  It sucks to grow up with any set of cookie-cutter expectations based on what you have between your legs, but growing up with expectations that assume an image of you that you don't even recognize is worse.  As a kid, I believed I was a girl because I was told I was a girl, but I never felt like I was on the same "team" as my female peers.  Most of them didn't want to play my kind of games, and weren't interested in the kinds of things that were important to me.  We were stuck looking at each other across some great divide, with nothing in common.  As a result, most of the girls harassed me, the lovely little darlings.

At puberty there were a new set of criteria to fail.  I never felt comfortable being "pretty," much less "sexy."  I liked boys and wanted their attention, but couldn't capture it no matter what I tried.  Instead, they all went for the cute, feminine girls--generally older versions of the kids who had picked on me.

I won't bore you with my struggles in adult life, but I can say that I probably lost one job in part due to not being able to make the female-to-female alliances that drove that workplace.  It's enough to make me resentful as ****, and I can totally see how someone in my position could direct that resentment toward women as a class rather than at the system that perpetuates this gender **** in the first place.  Personally, I lay blame at the feet of hundreds of generations of unhealthy tradition rather than on women as individuals.  Nobody asks to be a victim or frightened of life. 

The positive side of holding society accountable, rather than "those other people over there" is that I'm part of society, and can therefore be part of a solution.  There's nothing I can do to make any individual small-minded woman stop being small-minded, but I can change my own attitudes and behavior so that I'm not small minded, and am not treating other people in a small-minded way.  That doesn't exactly change the world overnight, but it's better than saying "I can't fix it--the problem is with those other people." 

So while I can't in good conscience join in a conversation about all the terrible things about women, I'm totally up for talking about how ****** it is to be hammered into a gender role that doesn't really suit anybody well, and me less than most.

Reading you, made me point out the main thing that bothers me through my thinking/experience  prism: women are victims and I don't want to be a victim.
And I don't mean actual victims (because of course sometimes they are), but pretended victims. Unlike you, I find many women choosing to be victims and that yes you can choose to be one sometimes, because it is comfortable in a way : you are not responsible of anything and you get all the attention and pity. I can't count the number of women friends asking for my help but finally not ready to help themselves first, not really wanting to quit a toxic situation because it serves something deep down in their psychological system. And I wasted so much energy and efforts for nothing because in the end, they don't want to change their situation and I'm like " how can you renounce to your own responsibilities and power in life,and then cry and complain".

The difficulties to live according to what is expected from different genders is a very interested subject of course but what I wanted to talk really about, was just if it is common or not to be born in a female body and have despite for the female gender "on a psychological level".

I am aware that the male gender has potentially as much annoying behaviors than females one, it is just that they don't annoy me as much, which would maybe tend to "prove" that I am male in a big part because we most likely accept things that we can more relate to...



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It's true that you can make rotten choices and effectively victimize yourself, and it is indeed frustrating to try to help someone who won't help themselves.  I'm sorry that you've run into a lot of that. 

I think it's fairly common to be AFAB and grow up really disliking women in general, since I see a thread similar to yours every couple of months or so.  It's definitely not just you.  I can't really say whether that proves you're a guy, since I don't know what qualities prove anyone is anything.  A lot of people around here say that cis folks never question their gender at all, so the mere fact that you're wondering if you're trans is a clue that you are.   

Quote from: The Flying Lemur on March 05, 2018, 09:11:37 AM
It's true that you can make rotten choices and effectively victimize yourself, and it is indeed frustrating to try to help someone who won't help themselves.  I'm sorry that you've run into a lot of that. 

I think it's fairly common to be AFAB and grow up really disliking women in general, since I see a thread similar to yours every couple of months or so.  It's definitely not just you.  I can't really say whether that proves you're a guy, since I don't know what qualities prove anyone is anything.  A lot of people around here say that cis folks never question their gender at all, so the mere fact that you're wondering if you're trans is a clue that you are.   

Thank you Lemur for your insight and kindness.

It is crazy even if obvious, to see how much the personal experiences we have can draw our world and theme vision of it that we have.
For instance, you can't relate to most of my visions on female gender and me I am somewhat shocked to read that you have been like bullied by other girls because you were masculine. In my world, little girls are more open when it comes to genders ambiguity, see how they accept the feminine boys bullied by other boys, but apparently not all the time haha.

I am sorry that you have been through that : especially when you are little, feeling out of the group is a torture.

Hugs

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I think you answered your own question. If you feel male, it's not like you're going to identify with the way females think or act on the whole. Why would you? Men and women are different.

I found once I accepted the fact I cannot live as a woman, my dislike of "femaleness" in general evaporated. I disliked it because it was a standard/expectation being applied to me by the outside world, and when I refused to conform to it I was ostracized or considered "weird". These days I have no problem with women being girly near me. Then can do whatever they want, provided they don't do something that endangers me. I appreciate the positives that they have - they are generally non-threatening, more amicable, not interested in competing with me usually, they are prettier to look at, more polite, say nicer things, and so on. Their general flaws aren't a threat any more because they can't be automatically pasted onto me by others.

When those things were being pasted on to me I had nothing but contempt for the label of female. Not for women themselves, but the label and the identification, and notably the lack of control the female body has over itself. I have no problem with individual women. Well, the well-balanced and non-crazy women, that is... which also applies to the men I know. During puberty it was almost impossible to deal with.

I'm not surprised you might think you're being misogynist though - current social attitudes demand we love everything about women (and forgive their dark side), while almost everything about men is joyfully demonized. You won't find a more impartial person than me toward the behaviors of men and women, but I've been called a misogynist plenty, especially on this forum, for any criticism. You might have to get used to it until society gets its common sense back.

But yes, in response to your closing question, should you dig up some FTM case study books, you'll find many FTM feel negatively toward female behaviors or the female body until they are allowed transition or expression as men. That said, I know cis women as well who generally dislike the behavior of women and prefer the company of men. This seems to be because of bad experiences with other women in their lives.

Yes it seems I have found out my answer by writing. Writing therapy 

Thank you Kylo for your message. I completely agree with you.

Quotecurrent social attitudes demand we love everything about women (and forgive their dark side), while almost everything about men is joyfully demonized.

That's SOOO it  !

I was a raging misogynist for most of my life, because that was one of the only ways I knew how to deal with the anger I really felt toward myself. I still struggle with it.

To be fair, though, all of the points you've listed I've found pretty much equally present across gender lines. Most of the men in my life tend toward passivity and two-faced underhandedness. At their worst, they're petty and overdramatic, and they play the victim game just as skillfully as any stereotypical woman, it just looks different. Usually takes the form of "poor me, I'm surrounded by idiots". Yeah, cry me a freaking river.

In the end, I traded my misogyny for misanthropy: disgusted by petty human social behavior across the board. Men and women are equally terrible!

Quote from: Optera on March 05, 2018, 10:10:17 AMI am somewhat shocked to read that you have been like bullied by other girls because you were masculine. In my world, little girls are more open when it comes to genders ambiguity, see how they accept the feminine boys bullied by other boys, but apparently not all the time haha.

I am sorry that you have been through that : especially when you are little, feeling out of the group is a torture.

Hugs

Thanks, Optera.    I wasn't ever expressly told that I was being rejected for being too masculine, it was more that I was told I was "weird."  At this distance it's hard to tease out exactly what they found weird about me, but it was pointed out that I played hard physically and got dirty a lot, and that I wasn't very good at girl pastimes.   Part of the problem may have been that I was growing up at a place and time where appearance was terribly important for girls from an early age.  I never mastered the art of looking pretty.  I also never mastered the art of feminine communication, either, which couldn't have helped.

To the extent that I get fed up with femininity, I think it has to do with communication style.  I have only ever been semi-literate in the way women communicate.  I think I understand what they're saying all right, I just can't respond in the same way.  Female communication is much more subtle and nuanced, and I am not a terribly subtle or nuanced person.  I'm also a pretty private person--I do not go around smiling at strangers or entering into chit-chat with them, which is considered a very bad habit if you're read as female.  ("You'd be so much prettier if you smiled!"  Meh.  Bite me.)  There is only so much being ignored and talked around rather than spoken to that you can take before you get aggravated.  I don't think women are purposely trying to ostracize me--I probably come across as aloof and uninterested to them.  And maybe I am.  To this day, I'm not interested in most traditionally feminine stuff.  Still, I get what it's like to be driven crazy by being constantly put in company where you don't fit.  I was in education for several years, and the vast majority of my colleagues were female.  Their conversation frequently struck me as repetitive, unnecessary, and boring.  But the boring bits were where they were forging critical social bonds that they needed to survive the workplace culture.  When a personnel squeeze was put on, I was one of the ones forced out, while (IMO) some less-effective educators stayed on.  Not anybody's fault exactly, but maddening.     

Women can be very exclusionary. Women would tell me I was a "bit aggressive". Then again, I got most of my mannerisms and attitude directly from my (cis) mother who is also known for coming across as intimidating, and a bit of a black sheep herself. Men are often unnerved by assertiveness in a woman and women don't seem to like it either.

I know for a fact I wasn't doing anything aggressive, it was simply the way I carried myself, looked people right in the eyes and had a no-nonsense way of dealing with people. People can be unnerved just by confidence in a woman, especially other women.

That said, I can still rustle mass jimmies with relatively little effort so there must be something about me that transcends gender presentation. It's probably the eyes and the voice. In some of the hairiest situations I've ever been in I never raised my voice, but it still had the required effect. The last person to give me crap was a woman, incidentally, my landlady, who has it in for me. She decided that my eyes were a problem and that I "shouldn't look at her that way". Like a lot of women I've encountered in life, she couldn't resist telling me there was something wrong about me and that I ought to stop doing it. I mean granted, she hates my guts because her own husband was trying to put the moves on me a few years back (somehow that's my fault) but I can't do much about my eyes, love. Lol. 

I think a good portion of the mismatch in communication styles has a lot more to do with your age and the type of work you do more than your gender.

For instance, the younger working class women I know are all very straightforward, say-what-you-mean-and-mean-what-you-say types, and their banter and bonding is almost indistinguishable from how the younger working class men speak to each other (barring, of course topics of sex and dating).

It's when I start speaking to white-collar workers and business professionals in their 30's and older that I start seeing a noticeable difference in communication. This is because in working class jobs, heavily gendered expression (especially of the fem variety) is pretty much a luxury most of us aren't able to afford to spend time on, and its not rewarded. And as far as age goes, female passivity is a trait that was enforced much more strongly in years past than it is now. You see this in the customer service industry a lot - where female employees are often perceived by customers as being rude and flippant when they don't inflect everything like a question, don't use passive language, etc., where the men are just seen as acting "normal" when they do the same thing.

Yeah, good point. I'm "working class" myself and I come from a background and family with a lot of tough women in it. I wouldn't go so far as to say they're not ladylike, but they definitely don't swoon at swearing and a bit of coarseness. Everything's coarse where I come from.

Perhaps there's more to it than what I see from your posts, but it doesn't sound like your problem is with women, but more with the feminist/social justice movement. I can say that I understand some of where you're coming from. I have very complicated feelings about it myself. I feel like some good things have come out of the recent movement, but there are other aspects I find troubling, especially how some thought memes leave the door wide open to be abused by bad actors.

The way I see it, masculinity and femininity are both essential.

We need "masculine" qualities in the world because we've evolved them to fit the world we live in, including the (inescapable) natural, biological world - competitiveness is good where it makes us strive for the best and to develop new and better ways of doing things. Being protective is good where something needs protection, level-headedness and keeping one's emotions in check is essential in a crisis. Discipline and a sense of fair play/sticking to rules are things typically instilled in children by their fathers, as well as practical know-how about things. Putting facts and truth over our feelings is also important at times, such as in a court of law. Confidence and assertiveness are what often gets us places in life and we expect these qualities from our leaders. Independence is also a great thing for obvious reasons. And of course the capacity to be violent, in the right situations, is literally a life-saver as much as it might be a life-taker. Millions of men have sacrificed themselves down the millennia to protect their families and countries from existential threats, so I would also say there is a sacrificial quality in men giving their lives to do this that is equal to that in women, who give and spend theirs more often in birthing and raising more life.

"Feminine" qualities are also important. If men bring a lot of practical action to the table in supporting life, women bring a lot to making it a pleasant experience worth having and appreciating. The "mother's love" is the unconditional sort every child absolutely needs. Women have an interest in safety, where men may have an interest in risk. Empathy and compassion is something women tend to have and share more of and is also essential to civilization. Thoughtfulness, consideration and politeness make human interactions more pleasant. Appreciation for beauty, aesthetics and getting creative with these things are a big part (and some of the better part) of human culture, and women play a large role in it. When women are around we tend to realize we need to be more considerate and in the process learn a bit about the pleasure and rewards of that. Most men absolutely enjoy the different dynamic when interacting with a nice woman. It's lovely, frankly, to interact with them and a very refreshing experience which I have no problem admitting. A lot of men have an instinctive desire to care for women, and I see a lot of them at their happiest when they have one to care for.   

Of course the genders have their negatives. On the whole though the world needs both of them and their qualities, and the negatives just have to be taken as part of the deal. So I don't think we can extricate feminine qualities and say we can do without them, or that I can't stand them, or anything like that. Ofc it's incredibly frustrating to be subject to them if you are not a woman, on a psychological level; almost painful really, to go through years of it at the mercy of female hormones, or to be approached like a woman in every human interaction. But I realize now that for women - most women - it's not a torment at all to be subject to the female condition. It only is for someone like me who apparently wasn't built for it.