That word gets thrown around way to much for my liking.

Quote from: Brandon on March 05, 2018, 07:36:16 PM
That word gets thrown around way to much for my liking.

Thx everyone for all your testimonials.
I think that yes part of the feminist movement which irrigates today's women mentality is a big part of the problem.
Something is very schizophrenic to me in this movement.

But it is not the only reason because I also hate feminine behaviors which are not supposed to be annoying or flaws etc...

Plus like BT04 (hope I don't misspell) I am misanthropic by the way, it's just that it's way more epidermic with women.
In the end I am of course glad that both genders exist, what a cold dead world without the feminine polarity !

I just have to take it easy and not care about what I hate about some fundamental feminine specificities because I don't have to identify myself to them. I indeed think more and more and like some of you pointed it out,  that this hatred is so epidermic because it mirrors an issue with my own identity. Human nature makes it hurtful to feel that you don't belong, are not part of something. And I'm hating women more of men probably because first : the fact in our society they are considered almost like angels and always have an excuse for when they act bad, second because I would think I was part of them and I am finally not, can not relate.

Envoyé de mon ASUS_A007 en utilisant Tapatalk

Quote from: Optera on March 06, 2018, 02:22:43 AM
Something is very schizophrenic to me in this movement.

This is not unique to third wave feminism, which is the sort we have right now. Really, anywhere you look in the western world, social movements of all stripes are reaching a fever pitch and are far more concerned with screaming insults than actually hashing out problems. They've all lost their way as far as I'm concerned. However, I'd still rather live in a world that has feminism than one that does not. My life would be orders of magnitude worse without it, as I'm sure most of ours would be. Let's not take the good it's done for granted so we can focus on the bad and pretend that's all it is. Adopting a wider, deeper view and taking a step back from our emotional knee-jerk reactions (which, ironically enough, is exactly the primary accusation being leveled against women, here) would be prudent.

QuoteBut it is not the only reason because I also hate feminine behaviors which are not supposed to be annoying or flaws etc...

To go along with the "fever pitch" comment above, it's also a pretty good sign of maturity when one accepts that not everyone in the world is going to behave like you, or behave in ways that you find most palatable - this is something a lot of people these days are also forgetting. There are a lot of different ways to be an irritating, irresponsible human being, but there are also a lot of different ways to be strong and admirable. It's not your way or the highway.

Quotefundamental feminine specificities

A good place to start is unlearning language and thought patterns like this. Learn to be specific, because vagueness leads to exactly the sort of sloppy thinking that lets us paint entire demographics with broad, nonsense brush strokes. You can't possibly, with a straight face, tell me that half of the humans in the world, numbering in the billions, are for all intents and purposes the same. What does "fundamental feminine specificities" mean, exactly? Are we talking about the female brain's lessened ability to process spacial information? Are we talking about the rather statistically weak difference between male and female writing styles? Are we talking about gendered socialization, which is almost entirely determined by culture, by subculture, by class, and  by age cohort rather than some transcendent feminine essence? Force yourself to think and speak in specifics, and in time you'll find that your current irrational reaction to femininity was largely based on one thing: you.

QuoteForce yourself to think and speak in specifics, and in time you'll find that your current irrational reaction to femininity was largely based on one thing: you.

=>

QuoteI indeed think more and more and like some of you pointed it out,  that this hatred is so epidermic because it mirrors an issue with my own identity.

I have to say this: you're a brave guy for being able to humble yourself like that. A lot of men could learn a thing or two from you, including myself.

I can relate to this but in a little bit different way.  Especially in reference to being/feeling misogynistic.  I have always been bored with certain female conversations.  But it was simply boredom not thinking the topics were stupid or anything.  I just knew always that the topics did not relate to me in any way. 

When I first started questioning my gender though those conversations became unbearable for me and out of defensiveness and fear of my authentic self began framing the topics in judgmental terms, such as "omg, how stupid," "why would anyone waste their time on these topics," "how juvenile." 

Thankfully that phase only lasted several months though I wished I didn't get misogynistic at all.  But it actually did give me YET ANOTHER clue that indeed I am male.   

The way I understand that circumstance was that before I started questioning being trans the topics just didn't resonate with me and that happens with all of my friends.  We all have at least a few things. That the others in the group aren't into.   But when I started questioning being trans ANYTHING at all that indicated I was male became unbearable, too confusing, and infuriated me.  I didn't want to know yet I am male and have yet another struggle that I'd have fight against or for.

Many times if we look at things that bother us the most and that we judge usually they are pointing to answers that we need or information to help guide our exploration to find our truths. 

I also went through a period of greatly disliking femmes because they reminded about how masculine I am.  Right after that I became greatly fascinated with femmes and loved to watch them do makeup, do their hair, etc. It's such an artistic and personalized thing that takes a lot of skill and patience I imagine.  Anyway back to the point... these topics may make you annoyed and feel like judging these people but think about why you really don't want to listen and observe without judging to find answers about yourself.

Sorry this turned out so long.

Peace
Chance

It seems to me masculinity and femininity is just a feeling people have that manifests itself in different ways. I don't believe in gender stereotypes at all. I'm not saying there aren't people who fit them, because there are.

Quote from: Optera on March 06, 2018, 02:22:43 AM
Thx everyone for all your testimonials.
I think that yes part of the feminist movement which irrigates today's women mentality is a big part of the problem.
Something is very schizophrenic to me in this movement.

But it is not the only reason because I also hate feminine behaviors which are not supposed to be annoying or flaws etc...

Plus like BT04 (hope I don't misspell) I am misanthropic by the way, it's just that it's way more epidermic with women.
In the end I am of course glad that both genders exist, what a cold dead world without the feminine polarity !

I just have to take it easy and not care about what I hate about some fundamental feminine specificities because I don't have to identify myself to them. I indeed think more and more and like some of you pointed it out,  that this hatred is so epidermic because it mirrors an issue with my own identity. Human nature makes it hurtful to feel that you don't belong, are not part of something. And I'm hating women more of men probably because first : the fact in our society they are considered almost like angels and always have an excuse for when they act bad, second because I would think I was part of them and I am finally not, can not relate.

Envoyé de mon ASUS_A007 en utilisant Tapatalk

By allowing little feminine behaviors to annoy you you're letting them get the best of you. Why can't you just ignore things you don't like especially if they're trivial things. Don't take women with those behaviors you don't like seriously. I suggest you find a mental health professional to discuss this with. Sometimes we don't like things because they're things we don't like about ourselves unconsciously. Sometimes we don't like things about people because its so much different than us.

for me, I started to resent women and feminine qualities because of being forced into that role when I didn't identify with it, and it was the awful women in my life who were enforcing it on me.  that went away after I was more able to express myself and live in the role that was appropriate for me, so I was able to stop seeing those qualities as something that was expected of me.

Quote from: meatwagon on March 08, 2018, 04:50:44 PM
for me, I started to resent women and feminine qualities because of being forced into that role when I didn't identify with it, and it was the awful women in my life who were enforcing it on me.  that went away after I was more able to express myself and live in the role that was appropriate for me, so I was able to stop seeing those qualities as something that was expected of me.

I felt this a few times before too, but they probably didn't mean to because they didn't know I was trans and now many are accepting after they know I am.

I think this thread has done a pretty good job of avoiding the 'pejorative swipes' - I like speaking my mind, but I'm no longer interested in internet mudslinging. Most of the time these days it's better to walk away from conversations like this, but Optera seemed genuine enough.

I was very misogynist as a teenager. Feminism turned that around, but I still struggle with my knee-jerk reactions to things women do and how they tend to behave because those things were forced on me to my great discomfort and humiliation. Most of us trans people know that feeling of unwilling conscription well.

But to let those experiences define our identity enough to call ourselves misogynist or misandrist? To me, that's something that needs to be worked on.

Under review.

I have removed three posts that were argumentative for no reason and bordered on bashing.

Debating should be rational and non-emotive, if you cannot do that then don't join in the debate.

Topic reopened

Cindy
Forum Admin

Quote from: meatwagon on March 08, 2018, 04:50:44 PM
for me, I started to resent women and feminine qualities because of being forced into that role when I didn't identify with it

I can relate to this.

When you are being "suckered" into a certain group and you don't want to belong, feeling resentment or feeling superior are fairly normal (in terms of emotion) because this is how you create distance between yourself and "them". It's quite the common behavior even among social groups. Think of city people who despise people from rural areas (and the other way around).

It isn't always like that, but I suposse there are people who use this strategy more often and I'm one of them, mostly because I felt stepped on and/or suffocated in some way by the group in which I was supossed to assimilate.

So yeah, I developed contempt for a lot of women, certainly not all but I do catch myself generalizing and engaging in stereotypes. Still, I think just having contempt for one gender doesn't automatically signal misogeny/misandry, as personally I think many men are contemptible as well. I just hold a different kind of contempt for each