I am female and yet for most of my adult life I have been made to feel I'm not feminine enough and over the years this has disillusioned me with the female 'role' to the extent that I'm fed up of trying to play it anymore.  I mean what's the point in trying to fulfil the gender role you've been assigned if people are frequently making you feel bad about yourself ie seeing you as as a weird/substandard example of your gender or even questioning your gender.  I really resent it.

I've never liked the idea of trying to force my sexuality/gender down anyone's throat and I basically just want a quiet life and to go unnoticed but it's as if people/society is continually trying to cram me into some category.

If I wear feminine stuff I'm seen as not pretty/feminine enough and feel like a fraud; if I wear non-feminine stuff I can be seen as possibly gay or even male (not sure if this is just another way of people trying to say I'm not pretty or if they really think I am male).  I'm just fed up of it all - all I want to do is be me!  It's as if people think I'm making some kind of political statement when nothing could be further from the truth.

I've always disliked overt displays of sexuality eg women showing cleavage in public; sexual things outside of a private relationship make me cringe.  Does this make me a prude or Androgyne?

I feel I probably look androgynous but I'm in a heterosexual relatonship and have had a number of previous relationships; I am quite happy to be a female but society is continually giving me the message I'm not coming up to standard in terms of femininity or that my brand of femininity is not the norm.

I just get fed up of the way gender and sexuality has to come into everything.  I feel I don't know what my social identity is anymore.

I think I understand you.

I'm a male, but never fit into society's expectations, either. I've heard and read much about poor role models for girls in terms of Barbie and super models. But, what about the poor role models for boys: Rambo, GI Joe. These figures are all heavily muscle-bound. That's not me. I've never been able to build muscle mass, even after years of avid bicycling.

A skinny guy is bad: he is obviously defective in one way or another. Oh, is that skinny guy emotionally expressive, too? What a total ->-bleeped-<-!

That's my childhood experience in a nutshell.

I've been married for 19+ years, and I've taken my role as husband/father/provider seriously. Not because that's what society exptect, though. I've taken that role seriously because my kids never asked me to be born; they never asked me to be their father. It's simply my duty to provide for them.

As far as the gender role of husband/father vs. wife/mother, we've been pretty clear that the roles should be what the partners are comfortable with. My wife hates to cook; I love to cook. She's far more carreer oriented than I am: I just work to pay the bills. I'd love to be a house-husband and my wife would love to give me that. But as her carreer is ordained ministry, it's unlikely that she'll make enough for me to stay home. And, our kids know what we think of gender roles.

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on March 18, 2008, 09:38:06 AM
I'm a male, but never fit into society's expectations, either. I've heard and read much about poor role models for girls in terms of Barbie and super models. But, what about the poor role models for boys: Rambo, GI Joe. These figures are all heavily muscle-bound. That's not me. I've never been able to build muscle mass, even after years of avid bicycling.

A skinny guy is bad: he is obviously defective in one way or another. Oh, is that skinny guy emotionally expressive, too? What a total ->-bleeped-<-!

That's my childhood experience in a nutshell.

Similar experience here.

You know all the nerds and geeks, vs. the jocks?  Guess who makes more money today?

Yeah, I was the A/V geek, and I still am.  Somehow setting a movie for drivers ed was uncool, setting up lighting for Velvet Revolver or the Black Crows is cool - I don't know why, its the same deal.

Its funny how much we - who ought to know better - deal in the most obvious stereotypes.  In my HS grad class there were 62 people (private all male school) only 7 were starters on the football team, so its not the norm.  Yeah, G.I Joe is a role model, so is Allen Greenspan, who I'm sure is not muscle beach.  Yeah, you got your Stalones, your Van Dams and your Chuck Norris types, but they are not the highest paid actors by a long shot - give that to George Clooney, and Harrison Ford - who tend to play sensitive type people.

Yeah, Barbie, but so too Rosie the Riveter.  I work with several women who are as good with electricity and running circular saws - it does not make them more or less fem.

Hi aeon456,

What I am hearing from you is that you identify as a woman, but you don't like the fact society expects you as a woman to behave in a certain way. Society is always trying to tell us we are not female enough or male enough and it is all bollocks.

One way of looking at this is you are a bit gender queer in the eyes of society (this could be a social identity if it sounds right to you). This does not mean you are transgendered or Androgyne, or whatever. It just sounds to me like you identify as a woman but your idea of who you are as a woman is at odds with what society thinks is right for a woman. Does this sound right to you?

You're always welcome here to talk about things. One thing we all have in common is that we are all under the pressure of society to conform to an ideal which, btw, nobody actually ever is unless as an air brushed picture in a magazine.

I've been reading this book by Helen Boyd called "she is not the man I married: my life with a transgender partner". I think this might be relevant to you as Helen questions here own gender identity (as part of her coming to terms with having a transgendered husband) and while identifies as a woman she does recognise that she is 'gender queer', both in the social roles she likes to have and the way she likes to present herself. She takes a look at gender and society and expected roles. Could be a really interesting read for you.

I think the thing to remember that even though you are at odds with society this does not make you a freak. You are totally normal, but you have a freedom that others can't comprehend. Unfortunately it does come with a price but we are all here to support each other.

If you don't like society, go out and make one of your own. 

Quote from: sd on March 18, 2008, 02:19:04 PM

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on March 18, 2008, 09:38:06 AM
I'm a male, but never fit into society's expectations, either. I've heard and read much about poor role models for girls in terms of Barbie and super models. But, what about the poor role models for boys: Rambo, GI Joe. These figures are all heavily muscle-bound. That's not me. I've never been able to build muscle mass, even after years of avid bicycling.

A skinny guy is bad: he is obviously defective in one way or another. Oh, is that skinny guy emotionally expressive, too? What a total ->-bleeped-<-!

That's my childhood experience in a nutshell.

Similar experience here.

yeah, me too.

Quote from: tekla on March 18, 2008, 02:33:53 PM
If you don't like society, go out and make one of your own. 

I see.

Quote from: tekla on March 18, 2008, 02:28:51 PM
You know all the nerds and geeks, vs. the jocks?  Guess who makes more money today?

Yep, school is backwards on so many levels.

The lasting value of the counter-culture is that there are more than just one way to go about anything.  I never found the freaks, or the weird people, I just found the people who others called that.  All sorts of lives are possible, but too often we get all caught up in some fairy-tale fantasy that ain't ever going to come true, because it was not true to start with.  Look to the possible, bet on the probable, and get everyone else's visions, dreams and ideas, and sort out what yours are.  Turn off the TV and look at the real world.  A lot more things are possible then you think. 

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on March 18, 2008, 09:38:06 AM
I'm a male, but never fit into society's expectations, either. I've heard and read much about poor role models for girls in terms of Barbie and super models. But, what about the poor role models for boys: Rambo, GI Joe. These figures are all heavily muscle-bound. That's not me. I've never been able to build muscle mass, even after years of avid bicycling.

Actually, one of my heros as a young boy was actually a GI Joe, and still is. His name was Lifeline. He was the medic, and a pacifist. He did not carry a gun (although sometimes he was pictured as having an empty holster at his side). He didn't even like HITTING enemies. He managed to save people by outwitting the bad guys, and at one point even got into a battle of whits against some rugged guys and won simply by ANNOYING the enemies. Yeah, coolest GI Joe ever. My sister and I would play both barbies and gi joes together, and on many times we would have the worlds meet (Barbie would help with an assault on the enemy base, and then they would all celebrate with a tea party back at Barbie's place, although usually I would play with Skipper, not Barbie (my sis and I both though barbie was a bimbo, she preferred Miko)).

Anyways, I totally here you Aeon. Be what you want to be, and ignore other people. If you don't want to show off your boobs, then don't. It doesn't really matter if you are a prude or not, you don't have to if you don't want to (although an easy way to see if you are a prude, does it bother you when OTHER people show off their boobs?). And let me tell you, I hope they aren't saying you are ugly when they call you male, because plenty of males are quite attractive.

Gender Identity is a scale, it's not black and white. Find wherever you are comfortable being on that scale. You can either express that identity openly, or you can keep it private. Things shouldn't be broken down into "male" and "female". Keep in mind that sexuality is a completely different scale, and often times does not coincide with the gender identity scale. Also actual birth sex is a different scale entirely, and also is not always a solid "male" "female" thing, with some being both, and some being neither.

Gender Identity is a scale, it's not black and white

Nor is it stable, it changes as we do.

Thanks for peoples' replies 

It makes me feel better that other people understand.

I can see that the term Gender Queer does sound appropriate for how many people appear to see me NickSister; In fact I've been referred to as 'queer' (not in the gay sense, more the odd sense I think) and 'different' (these are the more polite terms used lol).  I don't like this though as I just want to be normal; it's like in society I've got to settle for being seen as less than averagely normal and I don't like it.  It seems highly ironic that there are plenty of people desparate to stand out from the crowd and make an impression on people yet I'm the complete opposite - I'd be totally invisible given the choice!

I can't over-emphasise how shy and retiring I am - it's cruel that I should draw attention to the extent I do; God is really testing me!
I walk round without my glasses on so I can't see people properly - that's how badly I want to avoid eye contact.

Even though I try to dress down and not in a stand out way I still feel I can get more attention than a woman showing acres of flesh and I find walking around with just a teeshirt on in Summer very uncomfortable as I don't want to keep being assessed as an object.  It's like, ok, so I'm not sexy, so what the hell are people doing staring at my chest then if I walk round without a coat on (which I hate doing in public)
- make your f-ing minds up! - it's the inconsistency I can't stand.
To me, being dismissed as non-sexy/not pretty should be giving me the freedom to walk around unnoticed and unbothered but it doesn't - I have to be endlessly weighed up and assessed by endless groups of men and I hate it.  It's like being informed you're not good enough over and over; why not cut out the effort involved and just ignore me?!  In many ways I can't wait until I'm old then at least hopefully I'll drop off the radar completely!

It does bother me when other people show off their chests.  What gets me is that there's some kind of weird thing that happens - other people treat is as inconsequential when the person is confident, almost like they aren't showing off their chest - I can't work this out.  It will be embarrassing the hell out of me but not them.

The book sounds interesting - I will look out for it.


Vanessa

Well, yes. It sounds like you are very much an introvert. Society can place burdens on us, regardless of our role/gender/sex/preference. And we will always be judged by other people, no matter what, no matter our age. But those judgments mean nothing. They are just the judgments of other people trying to figure out where you fit into the scheme of things, and also where THEY fit at.

I feel people are often seeign themselvesas superior to me but I resent this as I don't see myself as even entering the 'competition' in the first place. Surely it's not even a fair match for someone who considers themselves glamourous to compare themselves to me anyway - it's hardly a fair contest - they should be comparing to another glamour type.  I really resent being used to boost some shallow person's ego as if I'd want to be like them if only I could when nothing could be further from the truth.

Quote from: aeon456 on March 18, 2008, 06:14:01 PM
I feel people are often seeign themselvesas superior to me but I resent this as I don't see myself as even entering the 'competition' in the first place.

I tend to set my own goals, it is fun like that.