Quote from: sd on March 22, 2008, 03:16:41 PM
I could be wrong, but I got the impression that he was asking what we think of in terms of masculine and feminine, not a textbook definition or stereotype.

Exactly - I was inspired by another recent topic (can't recall which one) about 'when are you masculine/feminine typr thing. I'm very curious as to what traits you all consider masculine and feminine.
I want your own personal view on it. Was hoping for a 'what do you consider masculine and what do you consider  feminine' type discussion. Looks like I'm not gonna get it. 

Quote from: Nero on March 22, 2008, 03:29:52 PM
...Was hoping for a 'what do you consider masculine and what do you consider  feminine' type discussion. Looks like I'm not gonna get it. 

Well,  if you're looking for an answer to the question of "what is considered...?".  That one is easy.  Everything...and nothing. Given that the differences are arbitrary and constantly changeable trying to separate traits into categories like that seems a little silly to me.

Ok, but why? So you don't believe in masculine and feminine?
I meant no offense by this, guess I tend to view things through binary eyes. My relentless topics are just a quest for understanding. I apologize for any assumptions I've taken.

I guess I assumed androgynees were a 'mixture' of masculine and feminine.

Quote from: Nero on March 22, 2008, 04:20:14 PM
Ok, but why? So you don't believe in masculine and feminine?
I meant no offense by this, guess I tend to view things through binary eyes. My relentless topics are just a quest for understanding. I apologize for any assumptions I've taken.

I guess I assumed androgynees were a 'mixture' of masculine and feminine.

In my opinion it's not a matter of belief or disbelief. You can look outside your door ( in the figurative sense )  and see people of a myriad of gender identities doing things that society tells them isn't appropriate to their identity. The key here is that society changes,  and what these things are changes arbitrarily with time and culture. What was masculine one decade may not be the next and the same goes for feminine. So why needlessly confine yourself to a societal ideal if it isn't 'you' and isn't even static?

Quote from: Nero on March 22, 2008, 03:29:52 PM
Was hoping for a 'what do you consider masculine and what do you consider  feminine' type

Ok, I'm rather baffled. What are you asking, Nero?
Masculineness and feminineness as you would understand it doesn't exist within me, but I recognize it in Cisgendered others... what they do, say, wear, look, move, act, and most of all... how they think.
I see and meet people as wonderful unique individuals... not as simply 'men' and 'women'.
Everyone is a collection of traits... some good, some not so good.
How would you answer your question?
Men are from Mars. Women are from Venus. Androgynes are from Earth?
Females smell like flowers and males smell like WD-40?
Do give a hint! 

-Emerald

Quote from: Emerald on March 22, 2008, 04:43:35 PM

Quote from: Nero on March 22, 2008, 03:29:52 PM
Was hoping for a 'what do you consider masculine and what do you consider  feminine' type

Ok, I'm rather baffled. What are you asking, Nero?
Masculineness and feminineness as you would understand it doesn't exist within me, but I recognize it in Cisgendered others... what they do, say, wear, look, move, act, and most of all... how they think.
I see and meet people as wonderful unique individuals... not as simply 'men' and 'women'.
Everyone is a collection of traits... some good, some not so good.
How would you answer your question?
Men are from Mars. Women are from Venus. Androgynes are from Earth?
Females smell like flowers and males smell like WD-40?
Do give a hint! 

-Emerald

You gave a very comprehensive view on the matter. Guess the others don't believe in masculine and feminine (which is perfectly fine, I'm here merely as a student of gender, not to impose my views and ideas).

Quote from: Nero on March 22, 2008, 04:20:14 PM
Ok, but why? So you don't believe in masculine and feminine?
I meant no offense by this, guess I tend to view things through binary eyes. My relentless topics are just a quest for understanding. I apologize for any assumptions I've taken.

I guess I assumed androgynees were a 'mixture' of masculine and feminine.

I really don't consider myself as having masculine and feminine traits. I'm neither gender and any traits I have are simply human traits.

Z

Quote from: Nero on March 22, 2008, 04:20:14 PM
Ok, but why? So you don't believe in masculine and feminine?
I meant no offense by this, guess I tend to view things through binary eyes. My relentless topics are just a quest for understanding. I apologize for any assumptions I've taken.

I guess I assumed androgynees were a 'mixture' of masculine and feminine.

Which is probably why we have trouble with it.
We don't really grasp the dividing lines maybe? It all gets sort of blurred together. It does for me.

In the past I have been known to start in the mens department and cross into the womens with hardly a notice. Of course when you come across the pink panties or a dress, it becomes pretty obvious you crossed over somewhere. That is when then I start checking signs and paying more attention to the division.

My grasp on masculine and femininity is similar, I don't realize it has been crossed until it has reached extremes. Were it not for the "friendly" encouragement of other boys growing up, I would have been about as androgynous as they come. Because of this, I made damn sure there was no way to mix things up with me. I never wore anything that could be taken as even remotely feminine. I am trying to break that habit, but doing so without going too far is hard when you are unsure of how much is too far.

I don't really know if that will help you Nero.

Posted on: March 22, 2008, 03:55:06 PM

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No need to apologize to me at least, I find you as fascinating as you probably find us.

Hell, I don't even fully understand myself, how can I expect you to.

I don't understand feminine and masculine in terms of something you can see.  I kind of understand it as something I can feel, though, I believe I feel more feminine, but I really don't know.

I like women in combat boots and men in miniskirts (if they got the legs for it).   I got nothing.

Quote from: Rebis on March 22, 2008, 07:30:35 PM

I don't understand feminine and masculine in terms of something you can see.  I kind of understand it as something I can feel, though, I believe I feel more feminine, but I really don't know.

I like women in combat boots and men in miniskirts (if they got the legs for it).   I got nothing.

I don't look good in miniskirts... longer skirts are better.  And they go great w/ boots too

And I know what you mean about femininity and masculinity being something that you feel as opposed to see. I also feel more feminine or something else entirely than masculine.

Z

I feel feminine or else kind of nothing or blank.

Quote from: Rebis on March 22, 2008, 07:30:35 PMI like women in combat boots and men in miniskirts (if they got the legs for it). 

I can't say anything about women in combat boots are actually normal to me between punks and the military I pay it no mind really.

But men in skirts, is this some sort of fetish club or something?

Quote from: sd on March 22, 2008, 09:05:18 PM

But men in skirts, is this some sort of fetish club or something?

Of course,  because we all know everyone gets off on their clothing.  All those women crossdressing in pants and the like!

</implied_sarcasm>

I live in boots, I think it's my inner '77 child.

As for Nero's question

I sort think of there being a masculine sphere...which is about independence and loneliness and the feminine which is about community and being trapped...

The feminine is about the connections and then being tied by them and the masculine is about striding out unfettered but having no one to go back to.

All people try and mix those things, I'm not even sure if masculine and feminine traits have anything to do with being a girl or a boy.

Quote from: sd on March 22, 2008, 09:05:18 PM

Quote from: Rebis on March 22, 2008, 07:30:35 PMI like women in combat boots and men in miniskirts (if they got the legs for it).

I can't say anything about women in combat boots are actually normal to me between punks and the military I pay it no mind really.

But men in skirts, is this some sort of fetish club or something?

No.  Just sometimes I see someone on TV.  There was a show called 'the john larroquette show' and one of the characters was a CD who wore miniskirts.  I thought he was attractive.

Really, I'm just saying that I'm fine with people doing whatever works for them.  Sometimes I think I would be happier if the at least half the world would mix it up.  When I went to Gay Pride in Boston last year, it made me feel so happy to see people expressing and presenting and playing with it all.  I felt like I was 'home' and had found my tribe.



Posted on: March 22, 2008, 10:00:51 PM

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Quote from: Pica Pica on March 22, 2008, 09:25:04 PM
All people try and mi those things, I'm not even sure if masculine and feminine traits have anything to do with being a girl or a boy.

It may have something to do with being a mammal.             


                         

Quote from: Rebis on March 22, 2008, 11:03:20 PM
No.  Just sometimes I see someone on TV.  There was a show called 'the john larroquette show' and one of the characters was a CD who wore miniskirts.  I thought he was attractive.

Really, I'm just saying that I'm fine with people doing whatever works for them.  Sometimes I think I would be happier if the at least half the world would mix it up.  When I went to Gay Pride in Boston last year, it made me feel so happy to see people expressing and presenting and playing with it all.  I felt like I was 'home' and had found my tribe.

Ah okay. I totally agree about the mixing up and people doing whatever. I envy those who can do that.

I wish I could live my life over.

not that it's miserable, just that I need the do-over but this time, on my own terms and without the fear

Quote from: Rebis on March 23, 2008, 01:17:39 AM
I wish I could live my life over.

not that it's miserable, just that I need the do-over but this time, on my own terms and without the fear

I take it you missed the sign on the door, no returns or exchanges on used or damaged goods.

I'm not shopping here again.

To answer Nero's question, I don't see any particular trait as being masculine or feminine except as something created i.e. stereotypes. But I can't help but think those stereotypes could be based on something. Like others have mentioned I 'feel' it. Like Rebis I feel feminine or nothing. 
In practice I am probably have a mix of masculine and femanine traits as you see them but I don't see them that way, they are just my traits.

Biologically, perhaps we are predisposed to certain behaviours. What they are I'm not sure, could easily be the 'stereotypes'. Perhaps all masculinity and femininity are is a feeling which keys you into where you belong in a society and what part you should play for social 'harmony'. It is a mystery to me.

I am Androgyne, hear me mumble.....