Something happened to me today that made me pause and think. And I'd like to get your opinion on it. Whether it's a common thing or just something which I catch myself doing sometimes.

Okay, so, a little background. I do admin work for a charity several days a week. It's all I'm really able to do at the moment, but it keeps me busy and makes me feel like I'm making a difference. I am out to everyone I work with. And for the most part they're great about it. Considering my circumstances it was a big risk. But I don't really have anything to lose. However, we have two older guys, proper "blokes", who are... shall we say... very opinionated. Not on trans issues so much, surprisingly, but more on... hmm... let's just say they never really left the 1980's.

There have been several times now where these guys have been talking about something. Or more accurately arguing about something. Something I happened to know something about, and could venture an opinion. But if I do, I get these weird looks. The kind of looks that say "shut up, girlie, the men are talking now." And a couple of times I have had statements leveled at me to that effect. One of those times being today.

Now, I know I shouldn't be surprised by that. Not really. Some people are like that. Especially where I live. What surprises me is my reaction to it. Often I'll just be like "Okay, whatever." And get back to what I'm doing. When a part of me feels like I should be standing up for myself and being like "The hell difference does it make what gender I am? I happen to know what you're talking about and I know one of you is acting like a dumba**!"

But I don't. And that's what got me thinking. Why? Why do I accept it? Because it's some strange kind of acceptance from them of who I am? Because it's some kind of confirmation in my own mind and in a weird perverse way, makes me feel good when someone treats me like that? I don't know. And it bothers me.

It got me thinking of something in a wider context. Do we as trans people accept when people use gender stereotypes on us, and subject us to the sometimes not so good aspects of being our correct gender, because it makes us feel like these people are accepting us as who we are? What kind of acceptance is healthy and what is just letting yourself get walked all over because of people trying to prove a point?

Like... is being treated badly as a guy or a girl, if you are a transguy or a transgirl, preferable to being treated correctly as who you aren't? This is what I'm wondering. Because sometimes, I can't help but have a secret smile of satisfaction when someone acknowledges me as me. No matter the context. Even if, at any other time, and for any other cis person, that would be a cause for the claws to come out. Like "Yeah they may be treating me like someone who doesn't matter... but at least the reason is because I'm the right gender."

Should I be a b**ch with these people when they try to be condescending? It's kinda hard because sometimes I feel if I say anything, it'll get taken the wrong way. Sometimes I'm not even sure if I want to, I don't know. This is what I'm really getting at. It's almost as if being treated like that is confirmation for me. In a world where very little of that is forthcoming. And I really don't know how to feel about that.

As a sort of tie in to that, do we sometimes act too much like how we want the world to see us? Overcompensate, if you like. To the point where it becomes detrimental? Is there such a thing as acting too much like a man, or a woman, to try and get the world to see you as you see yourself? I wonder that sometimes. And sometimes I wonder if some people do. I think I have done before. And probably will again.

I know it's messed up. It's probably different for people at different stages of transition, and with different ways of life, but I can't help thinking about it. And whether it's just me. It probably is, lol. I'm a very weird, messed up person.

One of the changes that has come with my transition is becoming more mellow. As my previous incarnation, I felt more of a need to 'set others straight' if they had something that I knew was wrong. These days, I kind of am more satisfied knowing what I know, and I let others prove themselves by expressing 'their vast knowledge.' I don't feel the need to correct them and if I do it is softer in my approach. I think this is me, finally finding me. The lesson in that is to be yourself. If it is your nature to verbally set the record straight, do so.
I do understand the validation of gender that happens even when that validation comes as a negative stereotype. Ten years from now, that probably won't be the case. Early in transition, I think we look for validation wherever we can find it.
I love your thought behind this thread.
From what I have seen of your posts, I wouldn't describe you as weird. I would say caring and empathetic, but not weird.
Moni

There is good news and bad news.  The good news is that they are treating you as a woman.  The bad news is that you get misogyny now.

I have not experienced it yet, and I am very happy bout that.  This coming weekend, I am giving a public talk on a technical subject.  I know that the audience will accept what I have to say on the subject, because they know that I know my stuff.  The organizer told me, before I did a similar talk last year, that the group didn't care what gender I was, because they knew what I am talking about.

That is the way it should be.

So, when we get misogyny, do we lap it up and think, "Yes!  They are treating me like a woman," or do we accept that we are women and start lobbying not to be treated as second class citizens?  There is no one right answer, because it will depend on the individual's progress in their transition and on their self-confidence. 

I think that, once we are comfortable living as women, we are more likely to demand respect.  I really like the fact that I am treated with respect at my talks, and that is the way it should be.  I would be pissed if someone treated me as lesser because I am a woman (or trans).  I was a woman's libber way back when that movement started.  YMMV.

Interesting point. I'm sort of blundering through at the moment trying to communicate and if I feel that I'm being put down I tend to react negatively and fight back harder as a response to feeling rejected for my vocalisation issues. (I'm not, it is my pigheadedness reaction to life.)

What I have noticed is that if and when I state my opinions I'm treated as 'womensplaining' and almost treated with annoyance and contempt.

How to deal with it? I have no real idea,

Quote from: Cindy on August 06, 2018, 07:06:14 PM
Interesting point. I'm sort of blundering through at the moment trying to communicate and if I feel that I'm being put down I tend to react negatively and fight back harder as a response to feeling rejected for my vocalisation issues. (I'm not, it is my pigheadedness reaction to life.)

What I have noticed is that if and when I state my opinions I'm treated as 'womensplaining' and almost treated with annoyance and contempt.

How to deal with it? I have no real idea,

All else fails Cindy, kick em in the shins!   Cindy 1  Idiot  0 
lol

I started getting this kind of treatment not long after I transitioned. Not that I ever got much respect as a male before transition but I noticed a significant change after transition. My grandpa has told me " men are talking Julia, make yourself useful and get me a drink" a few times when I dared try to join a conversation he was having with my dad and brother.  And after transition I got talked down to and mansplained even by my dad and brother. It was like they thought I got simple minded when I transitioned. Yes I suppose it was an indication that they accepted me as female but I didn't like it and I still don't. When it first started happening and my mom was still living with us I complained about it to her and she told me too bad, that that's how women were usually treated. When I said I didn't like it she said " well you can't have it both ways Julia ". She was right for the most part. No matter how sarcastic or irritated I get from being talked down to and mansplained to, it still happens. Even Tristan does it. Not as much as Tyler and my dad but he does it. I'm at the point now where it annoys me but I guess I've slowly grown used to it because it no longer infuriates me like it used to where I wanted to just smack someone or in Tristan's case withhold "play time". At this point I really believe much of the chauvinistic behavior of guys is hard wired into them. They really don't seem to be able to help themselves.

@Sephirah

I find your post very interesting for so many reasons, and completely valid for transgender people - as I have seen many comments pop up here and there in different posts with the same concept happening, and the same 'not sure how to feel about it' because its a validation but in a negative context.

I came out to my wife 2 weeks ago, it went badly but has come along really well since. The other morning my alarm went off 30mins after hers, she was already up, my alarm has wind, trees rustling and birds tweeting, she looked over at me and said "up you get snow white!" ...I immediately felt a sense of - is she being cheeky and having a go at me?But at exactly the same time I felt wonderful because of the implication and acceptance of it, I let out a small laugh and got up.
Its not a condescending degradation in the same way that your situation played out but I have noticed that there is an ongoing theme of sacrificing some amount of propriety in order to be validated and accepted by others. I think in terms of how to think about it afterwards really comes down to how confident a person you are to change a given situation - in this case they were condescending and you could push your point across more firmly BUT the situation on this occasion caught you by surprise much like it did me and you let it go in order to enjoy this new sensation.
I think that sometimes transgender people allow themselves to get into intimate situations not because they are really into the other person but because they want an intimate scenario to play out that validates how they want to feel as their gender, that can take on the appearance of submissiveness, femininity (for mtf), revealing clothes, etc etc and doing things with a person they have no feelings for, not that I'm judging it but its a similar outcome of making some sacrifice to feel what we want to feel.
I suspect that as the sensation of being validated wears off at some time in the future, you will probably stand up for yourself and enjoy an entirely new sensation...

Take care,

Sonja

Yeah, as a "recovering male" I know that I have sometimes done this to women in the past. I hope I'm getting cured.  Low level I think/hope, but it is definitely built in to the ways most men act. It's totally subconscious in my case, and I certainly have always valued women and what they contribute. In my work life, I always preferred to work with women, and to have women on the team. Nevertheless, it could sometimes sneak out. Let's all do our best, male or female, to put this sort of thing into the deep past. But it'll take multiple generations of boys and girls growing up to really rid us of it.

I worked for women half my life and most of their meetings involved seeking consensus. Men on the other hand and me included like having their egos stroked. But I realized, by myself I am not that brilliant but with a cohort of like thinking people makes me way smarter. Even though I was male, I never got excluded by the females having a conversation. I never was loud, so I could never control a male conversation. It is frustrating but nowadays I don't care.