Quote from: Allison S on September 07, 2018, 02:59:02 PM

Yeah that's very true I guess my view is very skewed being that I'm trans... I know in my experience being viewed as male day in and day out became toxic. I guess a gay man would actually enjoy being a man...who has sex with men.
I guess it easier to hide being gay, since it really isn't anyone else's business..

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When I said blend in with average straight guys, I wasn't implying that they were hiding the fact that they are gay, but that they just behaved similarly.

Quote from: Charlie Nicki on September 07, 2018, 02:27:14 PM
Really? I'm under the impression that being a transwoman attracted to other women is easier just because women are not as worried about the physical side as men are, also not as worried about what society says or if being with a transwoman makes them less of a woman or less of a lesbian.

We are speaking in generalizations of course but it seems like many women are just as concerned about what society thinks of them as men are.  Sometimes more!  The motivations and reasons behind it are slightly different but ultimately most people want to just fit in and foster social harmony and dating a trans person unfortunately isn't a good way to do that in our current social environment.  You are probably less likely to encounter physical violence or threats of violence from women, but that's true for just about everything.

Even people who are genuinely supportive of trans people still aren't always going to be willing to date them.  The same way we are all worried about what other people think and scared about the social repercussions of coming out as trans, so are people who would potentially date trans people.  And unlike us they have some other options.   

Many people who seem to be theoretically "supportive" of trans people don't seem very supportive when they encounter them in real life either.  I'm still in the closet to almost everyone so I have heard many transphobic and homophobic comments from people who claim to support LGBT+ issues and they would take offense if you suggested otherwise.  Even when they think they are being positive about it they tend to talk about encounters with trans people like they've just seen a freak show in the 1920s or something.

Quote from: Kati P on September 07, 2018, 03:29:52 PM
We are speaking in generalizations of course but it seems like many women are just as concerned about what society thinks of them as men are.  Sometimes more!  The motivations and reasons behind it are slightly different but ultimately most people want to just fit in and foster social harmony and dating a trans person unfortunately isn't a good way to do that in our current social environment.  You are probably less likely to encounter physical violence or threats of violence from women, but that's true for just about everything.

Even people who are genuinely supportive of trans people still aren't always going to be willing to date them.  The same way we are all worried about what other people think and scared about the social repercussions of coming out as trans, so are people who would potentially date trans people.  And unlike us they have some other options.   

Many people who seem to be theoretically "supportive" of trans people don't seem very supportive when they encounter them in real life either.  I'm still in the closet to almost everyone so I have heard many transphobic and homophobic comments from people who claim to support LGBT+ issues and they would take offense if you suggested otherwise.  Even when they think they are being positive about it they tend to talk about encounters with trans people like they've just seen a freak show in the 1920s or something.

Wow. Well I guess it sucks in general for every one of us lol.

And Kati P that's the truth. I am an advocate for being free, out and proud but at the end of the day, watch your back. Sorry I don't want to be the downer but I know personally, specially with men, my guard is up for safety reasons.
As much as I want validation I don't think we're there just yet at this point in my transition...

And yes gay men don't hide it but if they're "masc", chances are they're not parading around flaunting it either. I'm sure a lot of gay men are closeted

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Back when I was using online dating as a man, I passed up all of the transgender women I saw, not because I was turned off by them being trans, but because at the time I wanted to have sex with someone with a vagina, and so I didn't want to date someone with a penis. I don't really care now, but it's just what I wanted at the time, just like I didn't want to date someone who had kids or who had lots of pets. The thought of a woman having a penis didn't gross me out, it was just physically impossible for me to have the kind of sex I wanted with one, and it seemed rude to ask what their genital status was.

I just think it's a bit unfair to say that someone is transphobic just because they don't want to have sex with a trans person. Everyone has their own preferences and needs in a sexual relationship, and no one owes anyone else sex for any reason.

Quote from: Kati P on September 07, 2018, 03:29:52 PM
We are speaking in generalizations of course but it seems like many women are just as concerned about what society thinks of them as men are.  Sometimes more!  The motivations and reasons behind it are slightly different but ultimately most people want to just fit in and foster social harmony and dating a trans person unfortunately isn't a good way to do that in our current social environment.  You are probably less likely to encounter physical violence or threats of violence from women, but that's true for just about everything.

Even people who are genuinely supportive of trans people still aren't always going to be willing to date them.  The same way we are all worried about what other people think and scared about the social repercussions of coming out as trans, so are people who would potentially date trans people.  And unlike us they have some other options.   

Many people who seem to be theoretically "supportive" of trans people don't seem very supportive when they encounter them in real life either.  I'm still in the closet to almost everyone so I have heard many transphobic and homophobic comments from people who claim to support LGBT+ issues and they would take offense if you suggested otherwise.  Even when they think they are being positive about it they tend to talk about encounters with trans people like they've just seen a freak show in the 1920s or something.

Hello Kati

As you say we are talking in generalizations but I do agree with your summary.

I am inclined to believe it is equally difficult for a transwoman to find a romantic and sexual partner whether she is straight seeking a man or lesbian seeking a lesbian. We are all aware of the increasing instances today of wives of transwoman being prepared to stay long term with their partners who were previously living as men; they may be friends and celibate or they may have a lesbian relationship. That is different but it solves the problem although it may take time.

There are of course 2 other options - a straight transwoman finding a straight transman as a partner and a lesbian transwoman finding another lesbian transwoman as a partner. Sorry all appear difficult to arrange!

Hugs

Pamela

I'm at least in the 'interested in men before' camp, but my case is a little more complicated I guess?

I liked spending time with women and having an emotional connection with them and sometimes I felt like the only way to do that when I was perceived as a guy was to be in a dating relationship.  But I also felt super awkward and uncomfortable with the idea of anything beyond hugging or light cuddling, which was confusing.  I was never very physically attracted to women and I also never really understood why my male friends seemed to be so interested in women's physical appearance.

I started realizing that I was actually attracted to men and wanted actual romance with them early in college.  There were definitely signs much earlier, but I didn't really understand what was going on because I didn't even know people could be gay till late in high school.  It was extra confusing for me though because I didn't feel like I fit in with any of the gay guys I knew; I wasn't really attracted to them and they didn't seem very attracted to me; we were just friends and that was it.  All of the people I was attracted to were straight (at least as far as I knew; they dated and/or married women at least).

Eventually I figured out that while I was interested in men, I was uncomfortable being with one if they were going to treat me as a guy, and I pretty much finally understood that the only way I could ever have any romantic relationships with anyone was to transition.  That was at least a decade before I had the guts to do it though, so I pretty much just cut the idea of romance completely out of my life for a very long time.

As for my potential dating pool being a trans woman interested in men, well, I get that some people might not want to be with me based on my current anatomy, or my past, or for plenty of non-trans-related reasons like disagreements about family or values or anything like that.  I guess my overall take on it is that if someone doesn't want to date me because of their own personal feelings, then that's their business and I don't care.  If someone doesn't want to be with me just because they would feel judged by the rest of society for being with a trans woman, well, that's a problem with society and a lack of courage on their part.  Either way, I certainly wouldn't pressure anyone or make an issue of it; I figure anyone who's really worth dating will take me as I am anyway. 

To directly answer your question: HAI

I grew up fairly conservative Christian during the dawn of the Internet and had no references for transgender people or the experience thereof.  So when I had a burning desire for guys in my class and men on tv when I was 12ish, I thought I was just into dudes.  I still thought there was something wrong with me, but it was a boy attracted to boys.

I came out as such at 21 after trying oh so hard to pray that gay away.  I ended up growing as a person during my yearning to dig girls, but that never seemed to budge.  When I came out, I was still a virgin, so I threw myself into the world as a boy ready to party.  And party I did.  Too much.  I had sex with far too many men, let my boundaries of self-respect, safety, and standards slip much more than I would have thought possible, and hurt myself emotionally and physically in the process.  I did, however, have many GOOD experiences as well, and I have fond memories of sex, friends (and sex friends), culture, and even a relationship - despite the fact that this "relationship" was good for about four months before we moved in together and ended up exploding in hatred, never to speak again. 

I never truly related to other gay men.  I was pretty homophobic, though in a "fun" way like "UGH I will never be into RuPaul because they're all SO gay."  I was also immensely self-hating.  I was skinny and lean and fairly attractive, but my self-confidence was nil, I drank too much and got explosive to the point of losing friends, and ended up miserable and alone anyway.

I went through a period of a few years when I lived with my uncle in the suburbs after the city spit me out.  I dealt with a lot of my emotional issues but started from the superficial inward, which eventually brought me to my realization that I was trans.  It hit me one night when driving home from work in 2016 and I just sobbed before hiding it away again.  I was so sure that I was on the right track, being a "good gay," not screwing myself up and just wanting to fall in love.

Oddly enough, I began to transition last year and met the love of my life a few months in, on this site in fact.  I say oddly because she is also trans.  This has brought up a slew of quandaries and issues, though nothing so big that it scared me away.  I've worked through some of my self-inflicted trauma, and I am both into her and in love with her, regardless of my desire for men that still hasn't budged.  She was a "straight guy" with the somewhat typical pre-transition story, and she has not experienced men at all, whereas I've never been with a woman. 

I'll end with this: having thought I was gay has actually given me a wonderful perspective to being a woman that perhaps a lot of those who lived as straight men don't have.  I had, and still have, several close cis female friends that treated me as one of the girls.  I was privy to conversations about periods, childbirth, boyfriends, husbands, sexism, feminism, queer alliance, etc etc etc.  I was already pretty flamboyant, so there hasn't been a ton of redirection of my behavior, and I learned to do makeup months before I came out as trans.  But it is still REALLY DIFFICULT.  Because I'm trans.  I'm learning to internalize my womanhood, just like anyone else.  I'm reminding myself that I can do this, that I am beautiful, and I am living my truth.  Please never assert that one perspective, past identity, or sexuality is any easier or more difficult than another. 

Cus that's hateful hogwash.

Quote from: Michelle_P on September 07, 2018, 12:35:12 PM
This is the point where I gave up on the whole stupid thing.  "Woke" lesbians with incredibly shallow concepts of gender, identity, and role...  Good grief!

What is a woke lesbian? I googled it but could not find anything.

I am a celibate too, when I read this I did a joker flap things with my hands because its like wooot, someone I can relate to.

Quote from: MissyMay2.0 on September 07, 2018, 12:51:19 PM
Isn't the "open mic night" description perpetuating a stereotype of gay men; sure there are gay men who are flamboyant acting, however, there are also gay men who blend in with average straight men, with the only difference being that they happen to be gay.

She was basically just saying, gays are more socially accepted than transwomen.

Quote from: CuriousCat94x on September 07, 2018, 01:11:31 PM
I've always been attracted to females mostly, but too often I find myself thinking about being with a guy. I think I was just always afraid of angering my family, but thinking deep inside me I believe that I am actually bi-sexual.

I heard that HRT can actually change your sexual orientation, how much of it is a myth? I feel like it will be true in my case, but I will not know until it happens.

Even now before starting HRT, the thought of me beginning hormones, somehow I'm starting to notice guys more. Idk this is very strange, I'm hoping that I'll stay bi, that way it will increase my chance of finding that special someone! [emoji846]


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It is more or less a myth, but with truth in it. What you are is what you are, what happens when you take hormones is the psychological realization you are disobeying gender norms. Thus any male rules you have, goes down the wayside. You might have been bisexual to begin with, but shamed yourself over it. With hormones, you no longer feel the shame of your male rules.

My thing is, I want a girl because they are objectively more pleasurable. One time I was masturbating, and a popup showed of a guy squirting his load, and I couldn't stop masturbating and wanted to be his girl. But objectively, what does that do for me? Sucking cock does not give me an orgasm. Objectively, women are more nurturing, can do ASMR, and the right woman can just be so sexy. Therefore, I identify as a lesbian because if I just identify as Bi, society downplays my needs. If I say I want a girlfriend, they just downplay my needs and tell me guys are just as good. Which downplays my true needs to have sex with girls.

The other thing is, if I don't have kids, that means I will not have a daughter. Therefore if I don't have a daughter, how will I know if I will reincarnate as a girl? And what if not having kids means you are doomed to go back in time 1 million years and start life as a proto-man?

Quote from: MissyMay2.0 on September 07, 2018, 02:52:33 PM
I think it depends on the woman, but looks do play a major part into choosing a partner, and I think, in order for a trans lesbian to find a partner, she will in most cases have to be on the same level of beauty as the women she is attracted to; and then she has to able to find another woman receptive to dating a trans woman.  The dynamic is different if a trans woman is married before transition, and their spouse decides to remain in the relationship after transitioning. And women care what others think as much as men do (if not more), so I don't think the "less of a woman or less of a lesbian" reasoning really holds water.

You are absolutely correct. We live in a society that says it is men who mostly care about looks, but I think it is a diversion to distract from how much women care about looks. Also, I know many transwomen who got dumped by their wives/shaky marriages after they found out they were trans.

Like I said earlier, women can wear tattoos, be soldiers, and wear boy jeans and men will still want to date them. But women demand men be masculine men, tell them wearing makeup, or girl's clothes is looked down upon, etc. Total double standard.

Quote from: Lucca on September 07, 2018, 09:45:34 PM
Back when I was using online dating as a man, I passed up all of the transgender women I saw, not because I was turned off by them being trans, but because at the time I wanted to have sex with someone with a vagina, and so I didn't want to date someone with a penis. I don't really care now, but it's just what I wanted at the time, just like I didn't want to date someone who had kids or who had lots of pets. The thought of a woman having a penis didn't gross me out, it was just physically impossible for me to have the kind of sex I wanted with one, and it seemed rude to ask what their genital status was.

I just think it's a bit unfair to say that someone is transphobic just because they don't want to have sex with a trans person. Everyone has their own preferences and needs in a sexual relationship, and no one owes anyone else sex for any reason.

I know how you feel. I consider myself, a virgin because I have never had front penetrative sex with someone. It is like Hedwig and the Angry inch, "love the front of me". And before I make my outie, into an innie, by jove I want to know what proper frontal sex feels like. So I can understand cruising for vaginas, because honestly, one time I put my dick in a girls butt before, and it hurt my dick.

I can also understand the kids thing as well, if someone has kids that means I have to do the whole "I am a regular cis male" act around them and afraid to wear girls clothes. And with pets its a little more complicated. I am a broken person, and a hollow shell of a person. Pets can sense it sometimes. Because I used to be better with animals, and more feminine, but after all the betrayals, hostile attitudes, and getting ghosted, I've become quite masculine and malevolent inside. So when a pet asks to be petted, I'm like, Noone owes you any love, noones ever given me love so why should I you.

Snippet from Angelic's Post:
[\]"Like I said earlier, women can wear tattoos, be soldiers, and wear boy jeans and men will still want to date them. But women demand men be masculine men, tell them wearing makeup, or girl's clothes is looked down upon, etc. Total double standard."[/]

Your reference to a "Total double standard" doesn't really apply to my statement, because I was talking about cis lesbians dating trans lesbians, and that most cis lesbians who would consider dating trans women would probably be attracted to passing trans women whose looks are comparable to theirs.

Quote from: Angelic on September 09, 2018, 10:59:31 AM
I know how you feel. I consider myself, a virgin because I have never had front penetrative sex with someone. It is like Hedwig and the Angry inch, "love the front of me". And before I make my outie, into an innie, by jove I want to know what proper frontal sex feels like. So I can understand cruising for vaginas, because honestly, one time I put my dick in a girls butt before, and it hurt my dick.

I can also understand the kids thing as well, if someone has kids that means I have to do the whole "I am a regular cis male" act around them and afraid to wear girls clothes. And with pets its a little more complicated. I am a broken person, and a hollow shell of a person. Pets can sense it sometimes. Because I used to be better with animals, and more feminine, but after all the betrayals, hostile attitudes, and getting ghosted, I've become quite masculine and malevolent inside. So when a pet asks to be petted, I'm like, Noone owes you any love, noones ever given me love so why should I you.

At one time (just a couple months ago, actually; I made a thread about it here), I really wanted to have "standard" penis/vagina sex to see what it was like before going on HRT and possibly losing the ability to have an erection. Since then, I've decided I just don't really care; I don't actually need my penis to be in a vagina to have a satisfying orgasm, so it doesn't really matter what equipment a potential partner has. That said, I won't blame anyone else who doesn't want to have sex with a trans woman due to them having a penis. People want what they want, and as long as they're polite, they shouldn't have to justify themselves. That makes things difficult for trans people, but it is what it is.

As for kids, I just don't want to date anyone with kids because it's a lot of baggage and potential responsibility to take on. In a long-term relationship, you're basically signing on to acquire an adopted child. With pets, I'm just not a big pet person, and in a long-term relationship, I don't want to be living in a place with lots of animals. One cat or dog is fine, four is way too much for me.

Quote from: ds1987 on September 08, 2018, 10:02:30 AM
To directly answer your question: HAI

I grew up fairly conservative Christian during the dawn of the Internet and had no references for transgender people or the experience thereof.  So when I had a burning desire for guys in my class and men on tv when I was 12ish, I thought I was just into dudes.  I still thought there was something wrong with me, but it was a boy attracted to boys.

I came out as such at 21 after trying oh so hard to pray that gay away.  I ended up growing as a person during my yearning to dig girls, but that never seemed to budge.  When I came out, I was still a virgin, so I threw myself into the world as a boy ready to party.  And party I did.  Too much.  I had sex with far too many men, let my boundaries of self-respect, safety, and standards slip much more than I would have thought possible, and hurt myself emotionally and physically in the process.  I did, however, have many GOOD experiences as well, and I have fond memories of sex, friends (and sex friends), culture, and even a relationship - despite the fact that this "relationship" was good for about four months before we moved in together and ended up exploding in hatred, never to speak again. 

I never truly related to other gay men.  I was pretty homophobic, though in a "fun" way like "UGH I will never be into RuPaul because they're all SO gay."  I was also immensely self-hating.  I was skinny and lean and fairly attractive, but my self-confidence was nil, I drank too much and got explosive to the point of losing friends, and ended up miserable and alone anyway.

I went through a period of a few years when I lived with my uncle in the suburbs after the city spit me out.  I dealt with a lot of my emotional issues but started from the superficial inward, which eventually brought me to my realization that I was trans.  It hit me one night when driving home from work in 2016 and I just sobbed before hiding it away again.  I was so sure that I was on the right track, being a "good gay," not screwing myself up and just wanting to fall in love.

Oddly enough, I began to transition last year and met the love of my life a few months in, on this site in fact.  I say oddly because she is also trans.  This has brought up a slew of quandaries and issues, though nothing so big that it scared me away.  I've worked through some of my self-inflicted trauma, and I am both into her and in love with her, regardless of my desire for men that still hasn't budged.  She was a "straight guy" with the somewhat typical pre-transition story, and she has not experienced men at all, whereas I've never been with a woman. 

I'll end with this: having thought I was gay has actually given me a wonderful perspective to being a woman that perhaps a lot of those who lived as straight men don't have.  I had, and still have, several close cis female friends that treated me as one of the girls.  I was privy to conversations about periods, childbirth, boyfriends, husbands, sexism, feminism, queer alliance, etc etc etc.  I was already pretty flamboyant, so there hasn't been a ton of redirection of my behavior, and I learned to do makeup months before I came out as trans.  But it is still REALLY DIFFICULT.  Because I'm trans.  I'm learning to internalize my womanhood, just like anyone else.  I'm reminding myself that I can do this, that I am beautiful, and I am living my truth.  Please never assert that one perspective, past identity, or sexuality is any easier or more difficult than another. 

Cus that's hateful hogwash.

Your experience seems a lot like mine, especially when you say you drank a lot and were explosive. I was like that as well, can also relate a lot with being considered an attractive gay man yet feeling super insecure all the time. I also never really fit in with the whole gay culture...But I didn't know how much I didn't fit. I wasn't into hooking up with random men, or partying in gay clubs, I always felt safer and happier in straight clubs.

Oddly enough, after transitioning I've caught myself immersed in the gay community more, just out of habit and because most of my friends are gay, and it kinda feels safe, like my old life. But I'm ready to let all of that go and discover and build my identity away from that.

Quote from: Angelic on September 09, 2018, 10:59:31 AMThe other thing is, if I don't have kids, that means I will not have a daughter. Therefore if I don't have a daughter, how will I know if I will reincarnate as a girl? And what if not having kids means you are doomed to go back in time 1 million years and start life as a proto-man?

LMAO...Wouldn't that just be all kind of F——d up?

Quote from: Lucca on September 09, 2018, 06:35:36 PM
At one time (just a couple months ago, actually; I made a thread about it here), I really wanted to have "standard" penis/vagina sex to see what it was like before going on HRT and possibly losing the ability to have an erection.

At the risk of seeming salacious, you should check this out if you have a chance. With the right person (and for me it really has to be the right person, otherwise nothing works!), it can be amazing. Like heroin, it feels awesome, but is not conducive to my long term happiness.

Other things are nice too.

Please don't do drugs.

Quote from: pamelatransuk on September 08, 2018, 05:34:48 AM
Hello Kati

As you say we are talking in generalizations but I do agree with your summary.

I am inclined to believe it is equally difficult for a transwoman to find a romantic and sexual partner whether she is straight seeking a man or lesbian seeking a lesbian. We are all aware of the increasing instances today of wives of transwoman being prepared to stay long term with their partners who were previously living as men; they may be friends and celibate or they may have a lesbian relationship. That is different but it solves the problem although it may take time.

There are of course 2 other options - a straight transwoman finding a straight transman as a partner and a lesbian transwoman finding another lesbian transwoman as a partner. Sorry all appear difficult to arrange!

Hugs

Pamela

Yeah my wife can't deal with being in a lesbian relationsip but I have found another transwoman is so.. its not impossible!

Oh, I'm sure it's great. But after trying for awhile to date as a man, the couple of times I've come anywhere close to starting a relationship I've gotten extremely uncomfortable and called it off. I think I'll be more comfortable dating as a woman, and trying to either cram in a heterosexual sexual experience before starting HRT next year or putting HRT off for longer until I've had one just sounds exhausting, and probably wouldn't lead to a good experience anyway. I've operated under the assumption that I simply have to have "normal" sex soon or I'm a failure as a human being for various reasons, and it's just made me feel anxious and desperate. Deciding that I'm not going to worry about having any specific kind of sex by any specific time has done more for my peace of mind and mental health than anything else I've done so far.

Quote from: Lucca on September 09, 2018, 11:20:16 PM
Oh, I'm sure it's great. But after trying for awhile to date as a man, the couple of times I've come anywhere close to starting a relationship I've gotten extremely uncomfortable and called it off. I think I'll be more comfortable dating as a woman, and trying to either cram in a heterosexual sexual experience before starting HRT next year or putting HRT off for longer until I've had one just sounds exhausting, and probably wouldn't lead to a good experience anyway. I've operated under the assumption that I simply have to have "normal" sex soon or I'm a failure as a human being for various reasons, and it's just made me feel anxious and desperate. Deciding that I'm not going to worry about having any specific kind of sex by any specific time has done more for my peace of mind and mental health than anything else I've done so far.

You are right, and I feel the same way, but it has to be done.

I am the kind of person who must click on all the clickbait articles I can find. Lately I have been compelled to click all those millionairre-quick articles because I have this mindset of "What if it's the one?" And major FOMO.

Since I am driven by curiosity, if I turn my outie into an innie, before experiencing what sex is like, I would regret. Because I will get eternal FOMO, and FOMO is the worst feeling in the world. That doesn't mean I'm like one of those crossdressers who actually regretted getting a sex-change, I might actually be inherently happier with a vagina, but I would still have pangs of FOMO. My male side would constantly torment and plague me.

If I could just, get my male side out of my system it would all go smoother. And the only way, is to have regular, proper sex with a female.

Now you might say, if I have body dysmoprhia and just, not psychologically wired the same as a regular cis male, why not just become a woman with a penis, and have sex with a lesbian? Two reasons, 1. I am fearful I wont pass, and then if I dont pass I will never get anyone to want me. 2. I want to have sex as a man, because if I feel dysphoria, it will validate me more as a transwoman. All the famous transsexuals have got to have sex as a man, and used it to feel validation that they were not a real man. And I want that to happen to me.