Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on September 11, 2018, 04:49:40 AM
I must admit Lisa I just got a lot out of that post. A friend of mine who lived as a girl in the 1980s as a teenager had a broadly similar story. In her words she never went through a transition she just was naturally feminine from the start and just expressed her innate self. Hormones and surgery simply corrected the minor detail.

Thanks, Kirsten. I'm of the opinion that a part of this whole trans thing includes a hyper awareness of the things we think of as gender, particularly our own. I think it is through this lens comes our "dysphoria". Realizing a long time ago, probably when I was a little kid, that these thoughts can become obsessive, perhaps destructive and can make you absolutely crazy if you let them, as difficult as it is I consciously try to not think about them too much which helps but inevitably this awareness is impossible to ignore entirely.

I've always known myself to be a girl but have been sensitive when it comes to thinking about or referring to myself as feminine. That seems more like what other people should say about me, not something I should say about myself? For convenience, I suppose I could describe myself the same way as your friend does and it would be accurate but it seems simplistic or maybe like thinking of myself as feminine is egotistically claiming something I might not be entitled to if others didn't see things the same way? Others saw something though, that's for sure.

What we define as masculine or feminine is so arbitrary and subjective anyway and there is no doubt our basis for these categorizations is influenced heavily by the socially constructed aspect of "gender". I don't think anyone is impervious to these so called norms? Friends have said I'm seen as a girly girl due to the trappings of femininity; hair, makeup, nails, dresses etc., but even now I don't know how that or what it is makes people see me as feminine even if I'm not feeling it? It must be something? Maybe it's a vibe, an attitude or energy I give off or who knows what but whatever it is, it's something I've just seemed to unconsciously radiate my whole life that sucked as a boy when I wasn't left alone because of it. I'm not sure if this is or was femininity that comes across per se as much as it is that I'm just a regular girl? I suck at knowing these things. Certainly I don't always feel feminine.

When I was little, I did not think of my behavior and manner as feminine. I didn't even think of it at all, however, others did and apparently I was perceived to have these "feminine" qualities which some seemed to take great delight in reminding me of. At the time I never quite got it. I certainly didn't "feel" feminine. In fact, I felt pretty awful and grossed out about having a boy's body and how I had to look and be known as because of it.

Nevertheless, from the 3rd grade on up after my hair had started growing out I didn't even look like other boys and most thankfully, was never part of their tribe either so like your friend, it's hard to define transition as something specific without a solid from starting point. You'd think with all I write I could come up with something better than it just happened but I don't have much more explanation for it than that.

Regardless, I didn't have to learn how to be a girl or unlearn how to be a boy. All that was just sort of built in or innate if you will and just how I grew up. My "transition" was going to the DMV with my mom, letters from my doctors and getting a new driving license. It took a couple hours. Okay, I know that seems simplistic too because there were years of struggle and scars getting there but it all just seemed the natural course of things and officially being a girl wasn't a big deal or anything different from the way I'd always been.

QuoteAlso pardon my ignorance but things have gone from the Harry Benjamin terminology to the PC direction. I am familiar with Harry but not PC?

"Politically Correct". It's hard to understand some of the perspectives and observations about modern day trans world ideology that might be made by some of us that have been around since dinosaurs roamed the earth and sometimes our views haven't been taken to kindly or have been controversial. I even took a voluntary few months off from this forum rather than be banned for having an unpopular opinions. It hasn't been quite so voluntary for others so in a way, my statement was just a little subtle dig intended to mostly go over people's heads and fly under the radar.

QuoteAlso I am in suspense over the resolution of " I have a friend I want to tell."

No resolution yet but we are just becoming better friends. New thing and kind of funny this past weekend is four different people who didn't know us wanted to know if I was her mom? Obviously we're close. We're both blonde too, both have our own definite styles and personalities that aren't to dissimilar, we look a lot alike and she definitely could be my daughter so she told everyone I was. We had a lot of fun with that and some of our regular friends picked up on it too so it's going to be a thing now. I told her privately later I was flattered that people would think I was her mom and not her grandmother. She jabbed me with a fork for thinking about my age. Would still like her to know - she knows everything else about me but for now anyway, I intend to just keep things to myself.

QuoteI do like reading your posts.

I feel sorry for you! 

Quote from: Lisa_K on September 10, 2018, 05:04:31 PM
Finally backing up what Complete said, people seem to think it was impossibly difficult to be trans, transition and be treated in the 1970's and the popular lore seems to be filled with nothing but horror stories from this era but if I got started on HRT as a 17 year old in 1972 while still in high school and had referrals and recommendations for surgery as soon as I turned 18, at least for me anyway, it wasn't as bad as people seem to think but I was pretty obviously "afflicted" and they didn't know what else to do with me but to proceed with what was considered at the time to be a grand experiment because of my age.

Over the years, on line, I have run into a reasonable number who transitioned in the 70's... People were doing it so obviously it was possible... and early on teh medical establishment (before Hopkins did the 180) could be surprisingly supportive in some cases...

Most (though not all) who did it back were reasonably physically (and often behaviorally) obviously feminine to start with... most of the clinics back then DID greatly favor accepting those that could pass well, particularly if they were attractive as woman.

I transitioned in the 90's, but my therapist was part of the gender clinic that existed here in the 70's. She told me flat out that I would not have been accepted by the clinic back then because of the sexists attitude (about looks) that existed back then. (I was here then, but back then had never heard of the clinic when it was active)

We are the same age (less than half a year apart from what you said). I was from a working class alcoholic single parent family that started out in the projects.

In the 70s  I simply did not believe it was possible for someone built big like I was/am, and since I was not obviously effeminate physically or behaviorally (though not macho either), I just tried to make a life and survive... until I could not any longer... But luckily by the 90's things started changing for the better for those like me. I managed to survive transition and had my surgery in 1998.

Having sex was not a factor in my decision to transition, though I was not comfortable being sexual before.

- Karen

A vague yes, indirectly.

I never thought of my sexuality as a reason to why I transitioned, but I did always feel like they were linked in some way. Back then, the thought of me being sexual with men as a man myself was exciting and comforting, but I couldn't quite get turned on by that thought. Instead I had to imagine myself as a woman in my fantasies to like it, and I couldn't understand why, but I called it a form of internalised transphobia and tried not to think about it.

During sex back then, I did feel awkward about my body, never knowing if my partners truly saw me as male or female, I had trouble relaxing and felt like I had to perform a gender role that I was not comfortable with. I thought of myself as a man, but did for the most part prefer female social gender roles.

And now in my detransition I suddenly understand why, all of that. Finally for the first time ever, the way I imagine myself in fantasies aligns with how I see my gender, which has released a lot of tensions and worries for me. And the way I have sex nowadays is much more enjoyable for me both mentally and physically. Well, my transition regret dysphoria aside, that is. But I feel a lot more "right" with myself, with my role, with how my partners see me, etc. It has provoked a very positive shift in my sexuality.

I saw myself as "post-transition" at the end of my time as a trans man, although I did not get lower surgery. I now see it as that I am "transitioned" although I've realised I was never trans. I now see myself as a cis woman, but my now male secondary sex characteristics (and lack of female ones) do not reflect how I see my gender, which makes me feel dysphoric in reverse to how I felt during and before my transition.

I now see sex as one way for me to finally live out my true self that I've kept hidden and pushed away for many years. And I think that's something anyone can do and find relief in, and it's not wrong at all.

The link I eventually found, between my transition and my sexuality, was that I suppressed my attraction to women because I refused to think of myself as a woman. Now that I'm accepting that, I do feel relief, but also sadness. I had previously thought of myself as a gay trans man, and I'm afab. So that's how I know my sexuality had something to do with why I transitioned, but it was very indirect and something I was unaware of until recently, and I began my transition back in 2009.

I think that sexuality and gender are always gonna be linked in some way or another, but that how and to what degree, is different for everyone.

I believe that sex can be a way to express gender as much as many other things can. And perhaps some people are more drawn to that option, while others may prefer other ways. While also, for some people sex is dysphoria inducing, but for others it's dysphoria alleviating.

Quote from: SeptagonScars on September 11, 2018, 08:15:05 PMI think that sexuality and gender are always gonna be linked in some way or another, but that how and to what degree, is different for everyone.

I believe that sex can be a way to express gender as much as many other things can. And perhaps some people are more drawn to that option, while others may prefer other ways. While also, for some people sex is dysphoria inducing, but for others it's dysphoria alleviating.

Very well said! I guess at the end of day we all have different links. And that's totally cool as far as I'm concerned.

When I was younger I always wanted attention from males. I remember even desiring attention from strangers sometimes...

But now as I've gotten older it's pretty much the opposite... I really only want comfort in my body and mind through transition.
I was fine with having gay sex for a while, but I stopped completely. Overtime I realized that emotionally and psychologically, I wasn't fulfilled at all. I thought I was crazy because sex isn't about that... But it really is and gender can play a very big role.

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Quote from: Michelle_P on September 11, 2018, 08:39:19 PM
There are some very well known early transitioners.

You do mean early in time and not early in life, right?

Certainly in 1970 when I seriously put my foot down with my folks about living as a girl I had heard about Christine Jorgensen and knew that people did change sex but I just didn't see any connection between her life and any of that to mine. As far as I was concerned, I already was a girl. What my parents knew, when they knew and what doctors told them about me other than I was "probably gay" is something I always wondered about. I lost them when I was 25 and wasn't really mature enough or distanced from all of this enough to ask by then.

I do know when I had my big talk with my folks, they said they didn't want to bring it up it before for "fear of putting ideas in my head" and had just been waiting for me to break or things to get bad enough for me to say it first. I've always suspected they were coached to do this but that's another thing I'll never know for sure. I won't say this talk was a "coming out" as I couldn't have been more out but it was more of coming to a mutual understanding but once my cards were on the table, I got pissed at them.

This "we were waiting for you to say it first" and "we've always known" business really irritated me and I felt a little betrayed. They'd been talking about the "it's okay if you're gay" thing from the time I was 12 but not this because I'm sure they were dreading how that conversation might have gone. Not that it would have made any difference, I still couldn't have done anything more than I did sooner. I reminded my mother I had constantly tried to tell her and my biological dad this when I was 5 or 6 and about the last time I said anything and was backhanded across the mouth hard enough to be knocked to the ground. She remembered and it made her cry. Thankfully, they split up right after that but the lesson was learned. It took me another ten years to say it again but by then, it was more than obvious.

Maybe I wasn't the brightest fifteen year old but my situation seemed so completely different from Christine Jorgensen's because I was just a kid that had never had a moment of normalcy and besides that, who had ever heard of kids changing sex anyway? I never thought of myself as one of "those people". On top of that, George, before becoming Christine, was a man that had been in the army and both of those things were things I knew I would never be or do so I just couldn't relate any of that to my life at all. I was already living full time as a girl when I read Jan Morris' 1974 book Conundrum and while I found it interesting, again, it didn't have a whole heck of a lot to do with my life experience.

I don't remember the exact timing but in 1977, the year I had SRS, Renée Richards was still making all the headlines and by then, I had been living "full time" in stealth for four years, on HRT for five years and thought the whole debacle was pretty cringy. That was kind of a life lesson because my own limited experience with school bullies hadn't prepared me for what the public really thought about transsexuals and how much hate there was but once again, my life had been nothing like that even though with Richards being the biggest generator of sensationalistic media since Jorgensen, my mother took great interest in her story as in most cases, this was when trans people first began to be talked about seriously in the mainstream and not just as comedic fodder or sick degenerate perverts. Funny how so much has changed in the 40+ years since then but really hasn't. All this did for me was drive me further into the woodwork. I wanted no part of this circus. (now who's the coward??)

QuoteSome of us didn't have access to these things, and were in a position as minors to have others in control of our medical care.  I realize there is a popular meme to tag some late transitioners with a bit of an onus for 'waiting so long'.

I've tried to imagine how differently things might have gone for me if I didn't have the intuitive parents and supportive environment I had and I simply can't. I wouldn't have survived. Trying to bridge the gap and make nice from the perspective of someone whose very life and future was contingent on dealing with this trans crap, when things are that fundamental, crucial and vital to your existence, it's hard to imagine how anybody that felt the same way, that they were really a girl, could "wait so long". I've made great strides in trying to understand this and things I've read here have helped tremendously but like Jorgensen, Morris, Richards, et al, it's just kind of hard to relate.

QuoteI waited a long time, out of sheer terror.  See, the thing about conversion therapy is that it sort of works.  A successfully treated patient will do or say almost anything to avoid being shoved in 'remedial treatment' (involuntary committment, prefrontal lobotomy for improved compliance, electroconvulsive and aversion therapy).  Even as an adult I had a terrible fear that I would be caught again and given the promised remedial treatment.

Yeah, even as a 10 year old when my folks first put me in "therapy" in 1965, I was aware of the danger of how the mentally ill were treated and was scared to death that if I did say what I knew to doctors, they'd take me away from my parents, lock me up and perform these medieval remediations so I got pretty good at stonewalling but geez, all you had to do was look at me to know. That's why it took me seven more years and being at the precipice of suicide before I would open up to a doctor even though it had been years since my parents had known and understood what was going on for me.

How I avoided the uglier side of all this is something I still don't know? My folks were more interested in helping me deal with how the outside world treated me and the problems I had in school after school rather than trying to change me which they knew was impossible anyway. Although I wasn't raised with religion, I probably haven't given enough credit to my step-dad for seeing I wasn't further harmed emotionally by all these "helpful" doctors. He was a former Lutheran pastor and practicing clinical psychologist who didn't really understand the trans thing at all either but recognized there was really nothing wrong with me and didn't want to see me even more screwed up than I already was.

None of my experiences with the medical profession were particularly pleasant but there is really only one I can think of that was downright horrible that happened in the 8th grade at the local university. Fifty years later and I still can't drive by ASU without thinking about that terrible day or remember the sweltering drive home crawled up in the back seat of my parent's car and crying probably harder than I ever had. I was pretty shook and refused to talk to any more doctors until after I was assaulted when I was 15 and I only did it then to make my parents happy as nearly being killed was a much bigger deal to them than it was to me. I was used to being abused and bullied but just not quite that badly but it was just another day. I went maybe half a dozen times but thought it was all pointless and stupid.

QuoteFeel free to call me a coward, or one of the other lovely terms I have heard used to describe we old transitioners.

Hang on now, remember where we are. Were you expecting me to call you names? You seem as sensitive about this as some of us young transitioners are when we're seen as spoiled and privileged, that we have things easy and handed to us on a silver platter, that we don't understand how difficult transition is for older folks or when we're put on a pedestal and idolized or fetishized as some kind of gold standard of transness. It works both ways you know? I don't know who started all this nonsense but we're seriously outnumbered so I'll play nice as long as others do and I've been working on trying to improve my understanding of your lives and hoping to maybe give insight into ours. I apologize if you've been treated poorly.

Your experiences are just so foreign to us it is hard to comprehend. As it seems I'm likely one of the oldest teen transitioning trans youth that people may come across, I should work harder to set an example but when your gang starts calling out my gang and it becomes us vs. them, it's hard not to be a little defensive and I know which side of the line drawn in the sand I stand and I don't like being put in this position. Your comments seem like you were being a little bit defensive as an offensive strategy but there's really no need? Stay off ->-bleeped-<- and Tumblr and away from rude punkass transkids and maybe you won't have to see these memes or hear this kind of thing?  I've done my best to avoid getting involved these conversations and apologize if my comments making a point were hurtful. They were not intended to be or to be taken personally. One of my closest confidantes and best email friends is a late transitioning woman I met from here.

Quote...now here I am, an old cowardly woman finishing up her transition.

Cowardly? I would have never had the strength and fortitude to do something so unimaginable. I don't even know how people can find it within themselves do this but it certainly doesn't seem to me to be something lacking in courage.

Sorry for writing another novel length wall of text. At least I used a lot of paragraphs. 

Wow, there's a lot of great discussion in this thread. It seems to me there are multiple different topics that deserve their own threads. I'm sorry for those who will miss it because the thread title may not resonate for their particular situations. Not as a criticism but as an observation.

I'm sorry for any generational conflicts that have come up. As a late non-transitioner  LOL I think I can see both sides somewhat independently.

An interesting, if painful, observation from the postings of several of you, especially Lisa, is that being seen by society as in-between is more dangerous than being seen as binary, even if unusual. I don't pass as female, but the only really dirty look I've received has been when presenting as a male in female clothing.

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No, I've always been attracted to women and always will be. I've never even thought about being with a man, it's not the sexual organs, because  I'd be open to another trans girl, but the whole idea of masculinity just turns me off. All my partners have been bisexual and fairly foward, which worked for me because I've always considered myself a fem sub regardless of how I presented at the time. I guess if anything it would have been easier not to start transitioning if it were based on my sexuality.

I was really stuck on this for awhile, the idea that I had to like men if I was a girl and there was no point to transitioning if I don't like men.

Probably got the idea from a number of sources, people always insisting that I was a closeted gay man, combined with old ideas about being trans from decades ago. It really stuck in my head for a long time, and I don't know that it's totally out.

I just don't find men attractive. I've tried dating trans men, never made it past online, there wasn't really an attraction though it could have just been those particular guys. I don't even know what I would find attractive in a man, though I kind of still see myself as pansexual. I'm mostly into group sex anyway, though I think another girl has to be in the group for it to interest me. The whole monogamous relationship/marriage thing seems really boring to me, no matter what role I try to envision myself in.

Quote from: RandyL on September 12, 2018, 11:10:35 AM
Wow, there's a lot of great discussion in this thread. It seems to me there are multiple different topics that deserve their own threads. I'm sorry for those who will miss it because the thread title may not resonate for their particular situations. Not as a criticism but as an observation.

First of all, I'd like to apologize to heather3791 for my helping to send this thread careening off topic and over the cliff. I don't post in a lot of threads but in the ones I do, I tend to lose my mind and I am sorry. Maybe this bump will garner more responses to your original post and I can be somewhat forgiven for screwing up your thread?

Quote from: RandyLI'm sorry for any generational conflicts that have come up. As a late non-transitioner  LOL I think I can see both sides somewhat independently.

It's not so much that there are conflicts as such but there are some pretty big differences in the lives of trans youth and trans adults that often lead to debate and makes it challenging to see from the other's point of view. Occasionally things do go tribal and venomous barbs can fly when these differences are pointed out. Anyone ever involved in one of these shytshows usually either lets their hostility and hurt feelings fester with arms at the ready until the next time their tribe is impugned or sulks away feeling a bit sensitive and on the defensive like we've seen.

The commonality between these disparate groups is even though they're coming from opposite directions, the end goal of both is to end up at the same intersection which makes for some strange bedfellows and a co-mingling of lives between people that otherwise would have no other real connection. Occasionally this intersection is the site of a collision or two and a bit of road rage.

When these factions do align and come to debate, the arguments and criticisms coming from both sides are dependably predictable. Unfortunately, these things happen sometimes. No one walks away proud or as a winner but thankfully, these discussions around here are pretty rare and are usually quickly quashed before things get out of hand.

I have been as guilty of this as anyone at times in the past but am trying to learn to be more diplomatic which isn't always easy as I do have some strong opinions and some of my own battle scars even though I'm usually a pretty cool, calm and collected cookie or at least try to be but I'm human and don't always succeed.

I'm kind of an odd duck around these here parts anyway. Those that transitioned as teenagers are still very young and are very few. Those whose transness severely impacted their lives as grade school children and throughout all of their school years even fewer. If we go back to the 1960's and early 70's, they/we seem to be non-existent? Heck, even those of any age that had surgery before 1980 that are active here are few and far between and most of them are a good deal older than I am so it seems I am my own demographic? I've probably made note of it in every thread I've ever posted in here but that's kind of isolating.

Consider also I've lived my entire adult life stealthily in the cis-normative world outside of the LGB or T communities and been mostly oblivious to all things trans. About three years ago after thinking all my life I was the only one, discovering there were other kids like me, even if they are still kids, was quite an awakening. Beyond the young woman that opened my eyes to all of this, joining this forum a little over a year and a half ago is the first time I have ever interacted with other people of trans experience in over 40 years so I've come into this whole thing with a lot of history, background and experience but yet as a virtual neophyte full of innocence. I even had to look up the word transgender because I wasn't sure what it meant, how it was being used and to whom it applied.

Fortunately, I'm a quick study. After a good solid two years of reading and research examining the science and politics of all things trans from every angle, I've gotten up to speed and in some cases, sped away. Being from the days when you were either a full-blown transsexual, met the criteria and got medical care or you weren't and didn't, naturally I carry a lot of old school ideas and attitudes, some of which I've reconsidered, abandoned or will be stuck with for life.

The dichotomy between trans youth and later in life transitioning adults is one of those things that has become more clear to me than ever but it should be added, I don't think one is better or superior or more anything than the other - they're just different. Some would prefer we are all painted with the same broad brush, hold hands and sing Kumbaya and indeed, there are commonalities and things to be learned from each other but I don't think that denying our differences, our unique experiences and unique needs and perspectives or pretending they don't exist doesn't do either camp any favors. It is somewhat of a shame though that exploring these differences does inevitably elicit tribalism and finger pointing.

I apologize for going off on this. The matter of "generational conflicts" was raised and I took the opportunity to elaborate for greater understanding of the issue.

QuoteAn interesting, if painful, observation from the postings of several of you, especially Lisa, is that being seen by society as in-between is more dangerous than being seen as binary, even if unusual.

I would say your observation is pretty spot-on. Certainly, things aren't as bad as they used to be but this is still regional and depends on where you are, I think? After growing up in-between, being binary has been my safe space.

QuoteI don't pass as female, but the only really dirty look I've received has been when presenting as a male in female clothing.

The world has changed but not that much. Were you really expecting a different result? All I can say is watch your six. In my part of the country, that might be watch your six and carry a handgun!

Quote from: Lisa_K on September 13, 2018, 08:38:58 AM
First of all, I'd like to apologize to heather3791 for my helping to send this thread careening off topic and over the cliff. I don't post in a lot of threads but in the ones I do, I tend to lose my mind and I am sorry. Maybe this bump will garner more responses to your original post and I can be somewhat forgiven for screwing up your thread?

It's not so much that there are conflicts as such but there are some pretty big differences in the lives of trans youth and trans adults that often lead to debate and makes it challenging to see from the other's point of view. Occasionally things do go tribal and venomous barbs can fly when these differences are pointed out. Anyone ever involved in one of these shytshows usually either lets their hostility and hurt feelings fester with arms at the ready until the next time their tribe is impugned or sulks away feeling a bit sensitive and on the defensive like we've seen.

The commonality between these disparate groups is even though they're coming from opposite directions, the end goal of both is to end up at the same intersection which makes for some strange bedfellows and a co-mingling of lives between people that otherwise would have no other real connection. Occasionally this intersection is the site of a collision or two and a bit of road rage.

When these factions do align and come to debate, the arguments and criticisms coming from both sides are dependably predictable. Unfortunately, these things happen sometimes. No one walks away proud or as a winner but thankfully, these discussions around here are pretty rare and are usually quickly quashed before things get out of hand.

I have been as guilty of this as anyone at times in the past but am trying to learn to be more diplomatic which isn't always easy as I do have some strong opinions and some of my own battle scars even though I'm usually a pretty cool, calm and collected cookie or at least try to be but I'm human and don't always succeed.

I'm kind of an odd duck around these here parts anyway. Those that transitioned as teenagers are still very young and are very few. Those whose transness severely impacted their lives as grade school children and throughout all of their school years even fewer. If we go back to the 1960's and early 70's, they/we seem to be non-existent? Heck, even those of any age that had surgery before 1980 that are active here are few and far between and most of them are a good deal older than I am so it seems I am my own demographic? I've probably made note of it in every thread I've ever posted in here but that's kind of isolating.

Consider also I've lived my entire adult life stealthily in the cis-normative world outside of the LGB or T communities and been mostly oblivious to all things trans. About three years ago after thinking all my life I was the only one, discovering there were other kids like me, even if they are still kids, was quite an awakening. Beyond the young woman that opened my eyes to all of this, joining this forum a little over a year and a half ago is the first time I have ever interacted with other people of trans experience in over 40 years so I've come into this whole thing with a lot of history, background and experience but yet as a virtual neophyte full of innocence. I even had to look up the word transgender because I wasn't sure what it meant, how it was being used and to whom it applied.

Fortunately, I'm a quick study. After a good solid two years of reading and research examining the science and politics of all things trans from every angle, I've gotten up to speed and in some cases, sped away. Being from the days when you were either a full-blown transsexual, met the criteria and got medical care or you weren't and didn't, naturally I carry a lot of old school ideas and attitudes, some of which I've reconsidered, abandoned or will be stuck with for life.

The dichotomy between trans youth and later in life transitioning adults is one of those things that has become more clear to me than ever but it should be added, I don't think one is better or superior or more anything than the other - they're just different. Some would prefer we are all painted with the same broad brush, hold hands and sing Kumbaya and k, there are commonalities and things to be learned from each other but I don't think that denying our differences, our unique experiences and unique needs and perspectives or pretending they don't exist doesn't do either camp any favors. It is somewhat of a shame though that exploring these differences does inevitably elicit tribalism and finger pointing.

I apologize for going off on this. The matter of "generational conflicts" was raised and I took the opportunity to elaborate for greater understanding of the issue.

I would say your observation is pretty spot-on. Certainly, things aren't as bad as they used to be but this is still regional and depends on where you are, I think? After growing up in-between, being binary has been my safe space.

The world has changed but not that much. Were you really expecting a different result? All I can say is watch your six. In my part of the country, that might be watch your six and carry a handgun!

You should check out Mardi P. on youtube. She talks about being trans as a young teenager and transition a few decades ago like you did. She says a lot of her trans friends didn't make it sadly...

Here's a link to her channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClTl0Gxcj0-7ytj1wkDFoXw

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Quote from: Allison S on September 13, 2018, 08:49:30 AM
You should check out Mardi P. on youtube. She talks about being trans as a young teenager and transition a few decades ago like you did.

Hey thanks, Allison!

I'm familiar with Mardi P. and have been trying to get in touch with her privately but with me not having any social media accounts, I haven't had much luck. I know she's friends with YouTuber Brittanie Daniels and I thought she might be able to pass my info along for me? I sent an email to Brittanie's two year old email address I had on file but haven't heard back from her so I'm guessing it no longer works? I'll probably have to tune into one of Mardi's live chats but hate doing anything publicly. I've made two YouTube comments in the history of YouTube.

QuoteShe says a lot of her trans friends didn't make it sadly...

No shade but considering her lifestyle, it's kind of a surprise she did make it.

I know both of them dealt with their transness in their teens but I'm 7 years older than Mardi and know it isn't supposed to matter but I was 37 when she had SRS. I'm like 14 years older than Brittany but we did go to the same surgeon and have that in common. Both these ladies have a lot more "worldly" experience than I've ever had, if you know what I mean? I'm a schoolmarm in comparison!

Thanks again!

Consider it from my perspective; I was always attracted to both men and women, from my earliest understandings of what attraction was. I don't even perceive intimacy with men and women to be all that different and don't give a lot thought of what the different equipment means to intimacy because to me intimacy carries so many options. So there was not a preference consideration for me.

However, sexuality is a very intrinsic thing to most (but not all of course) humans, it is akin to and related to taking care of one's self, working out, maintaining self-care and mental health. Maybe not as critical as eating but then again human touch is very, very critical to our well being.

Maybe what is sometimes felt is sex-centricity is really just dysphoria or the desire to be one's self, layered over a very real need for human contact and attention. It is sometimes hard to detangle these things.

No.

While sex was majorly dysphoria-inducing I wouldn't transition for that reason alone, or even if it was a major deal, I would just think of sex as being a thing I had a problem with. That's exactly how I thought of it before transition and before being fully aware of the situation myself.

I only transitioned because I knew something was not right in general - too much estrogen, female form etc. was a problem for me just looking in the mirror. Dissociation from your own body can lead to you allowing your body to fall into neglect, or just outright harming it, or not even being aware when you are causing it harm via your blocking out of even looking or thinking about it. I transitioned to fix that, primarily.

I've been considering the same thing. I like women or someone who dresses feminine. Now, I just look at a woman and think I can't wait to be one, look how they dress and wish I could present myself like her. I've also started having fantasies about being with a man when I have transitioned. I have a very high labido, just the tool I currently have doesn't work very well, doesn't help I don't like it lol

My opinion is sexual preference is not exactly correlated to gender identity.
Prior to transitioning, always believe I only like female. The purpose of transitioning is to feel normal for myself as I felt entrapped within a body that doesn't seem correct. Having undergone the SRS, things seem right. Then again that sparks an interest to men. Can't explain why thou, when attractive men approaches, I am feeling excited in some sense.
I Guess postop in a way changes my perception slightly to the way I look at men or rather it auto corrects my mindset that is deem as normal? Not sure. I would say the mind plays an incredible role. But bottom line is transitioning I feel should be mainly due to GID and not inclined due to sexual preference as a scale determining factor.

Interesting, sexual preference has greatly affected my decision to transition.  My wife says she's not a lesbian and this above all else has delayed my transition. 

None of this really applies to me for the time being since I'm not transitioning, or have a wife, but if I were married, then yes.  It is mainly religious for me, but if I did have a wife, then it would be my duty to fulfill the physical intimacy part of the relationship as close to a male as I can.  If I were married, then transitioning would take an even greater priority because of the traditional male/female relationship I aspire to have.

To be brief,  yes. I was a heterosexual womanwith the wrong genitalia. A simple surgical correction was all that was required.

No not at all. My only reason to transition was happiness and an intense desire to live.



Love
Bobbie LeAnn