A recent comment of Rebis made me think a bit about gender expression.

Quote from: Rebis on April 04, 2008, 03:59:40 PM

Quote from: redfish the metaphysician on April 04, 2008, 03:41:25 PM
Every time you type something I hear it in Bender's voice now

me too.  I've actually been holding back because I want to continually mouth off.   It's weird.

very weird.

The way I look at it, this is obvious: Rebis presents as Bender, so of course e tends to behave appropriately.

But wait -- as they say on TV -- there's more. It seems that this is, to some extent, how I do gender. It's partly a role (in a theatre or RPG sense), and partly the way I look affects how I act. I believe this is one of the main elements in my being androgyne.

So, what do the rest of you think?

  Nfr

Certainly the way I look affects how I act, and feel. If I have my hair out, I feel much more feminine than with my hair up. (Which helps to explain why I have it up most of the time...it sort of seems to represent the feminine side of me, which doesn't get much airing, it appears). I tend to play with my hair more when it's down, and be conscious of the fact that I'm a woman, which I find *really* distracting. I also find it much easier to talk to people with my hair up than with it down. I don't feel like a man when I talk to other people, but I don't feel like a woman either, which makes it much easier, for some bizzare reason.
Make-up and wearing low-cut tops don't really have as much affect as having my hair down does. As for dresses, I don't know, 'cause I refuse to wear them (I was lucky that the school I went to was co-ed, and the girls had the choice of wearing pants, shorts, skirts and dresses all year round). But yes, having my hair in a bun makes me feel older, having it in a pony-tail makes me feel/act in a way that I think of as being more *me* (- not female at all, and if male, only slightly, if that makes sense), and having my hair down just makes me feel too girly for words.

That said, just you try to convince me to get my hair cut! > 

Quote from: Susan on June 17, 2007, 10:06:47 PM

Community Definitions:

Androgyne: An androgynous person

Androgynous: Being neither distinguishably masculine nor feminine, as in dress, appearance, or behavior.

Most of the new Androgyne postings I read this morning seem to touch the question: What is gender?

Wife and I got into a strange tit-for-tat this morning that include these exhanges:
"You just feel that way because your breasts are bigger than mine."
"They're supposed to be."
"Well, my hair is longer than yours."
Growl.

And then, I'm the one with the beard. Daily shaving would just make me look like a masculine who shaves daily.

Back to the hair. It's in a ponytail as a compromise with the women in the house, who let me grow it long (with grumbling) but would make my life Hell if I let it hang free in public. I suspect they would frown on putting it up in a bun, too.

Can anyone look at my picture and say they cannot guess my sex. And I was watching how my wife held her left hand while she poured orange juice with the right. I don't hold my hand that way. But my mind. That's different. I know some of my psychology is expressed externally. My gender must come out in some of my acts. Even my daughter knows, without my explicit confirmation, I'd rather be feminine or female or.... But my dress, appearance, and behavior reflect my body. I do not wear dresses in public, though I don't mind picking up feminine supplies at the store.

That said, my hair, too, will stay long, and I continue to revel in the finasteride grown breast buds.

Not knowing what to think, I remain
S

I know what you mean.  For me, it has a lot to do with what I'm wearing on bottom.  If I'm wearing my wonderfully, worn out jeans, I feel more boyish and more like me.  But sometimes, especially in the summer, I'll wear a skirt and then I feel more feminine and I act more feminine, unconsciously.  I wear skirts and capris because I don't like shorts.  That's it.  They are cooler than long pants and look better than shorts.  I'm going to get my hair cut again soon and it will be a pretty androgynous cut (if I explain it to my stylist correctly), so my hair doesn't affect me too much and I wear makeup most of the time because I like the way it looks, not because it's feminine.  My neighbor at work called me a "girly girl" yesterday, because I wore a skirt and capris most of the week.  I felt really weird when she said that.  Almost dirty.  Like I needed to wash the "girliness" off.  It's all in the bottoms...and shoes.  I do have some girly shoes that make me feel more feminine.  I generally prefer chucks or flip flops.  They make me feel more like me.

In real life, I can't hide my filthy masculinity.

       Sometimes, I can transcend how that normally makes me feel by consciously letting go of my self image.  Then I can be Rebecca.   I still have Rebecca within me even though I'm not TS.  I think I'm learning to not let my self consciousness concerning my crummy looks entirely prevent me from expressing my true self.  I may be doing this by looking at women and behaving as I imagine I might if I looked like them.
        It's like the avatar thing, I guess, but instead of an avatar, I use real people around me in order to channel myself.

        Is that nuts?   Because, if it is, I have something even more crazy to say.
        I sometimes think that I am Rebecca the gender variant and not Robert the gender variant.
        Is that crazy?  No one's ever explained to me whether it's possible to be psychologically intersexed.  Or, is Androgyne the word for that?

        Crazy #3 = I think my mother is gender variantly similar to me somehow but the opposite way.  Fem-bodied rather than male-bodied. 

*the sound you hear is a fleet of UFOs coming to get me*


Posted on: April 05, 2008, 07:07:54 PM

---

Jaimey has a point.  I have noticed that if my bottoms are unisex, then I feel like a human being.  If they are masculine, I feel like a phony.


***if you like photos of me and Jaimey's bottoms, please send a check along with a self addressed stamped Onvelope.

and if you have widescreen then i am available.

Quote from: Rebis on April 05, 2008, 07:12:19 PM
In real life, I can't hide my filthy masculinity.

You sound like you have stained carpets.
"Whatever shall I do?"







I feel your pain.

                  

good one!


Maybe I should stain my carpets.  It might increase the value of my house.

I was having a conversation with two female friends of mine. Pretentious is a word we throw around a lot. One was off to buy vitamin water. I was bull-headedly exaggerating how pretentious that is.

Me: You're pretentious!
Her: You're not a boy!
Me: But you're pretentious!
Her: That doesn't change the fact that you are not a boy!

I just stood there shrugging at her with a dumb smile on my face.

My other friend, who's rather attracted to me chimed in "He's more feminine than I am, and sometimes [cross] dresses better. He couldn't pull off the heels, though"

I was in 2.5 inch sandals at the time... though she always wears 4+ inch heels 

But what is the question here really? Is gender an act? Basically, yes. Did we not know this?

Butch lesbians who wear guys overalls and have buzzed cuts and drink beer and grab at the waitress's ass, or gay/metro men who go get manicures, $150 haircuts, and color coordinate their living rooms...

And then how much of that behavior comes from what is actually masculine and feminine, versus acting society's role. Is not wanting to hurt animals, and being extra concerned with the health of your skin/nails feminine (gay for men), really, or is it just the antithesis of what we consider to be rawr powerful masculinity. Is femininity simply defined as the polar opposite of masculinity? If so that's probably why women are so marginalized, since masculinity is touted as all that is great.

Since I came out of my shell personality wise I've found (though I don't admit it) that I've incorporated traits that I saw in the behavior of the women I've known in my life. Personality quirks, ways of expressions, body language and facial expressions absorbed from friends and lovers, even a few things from my mother though I try to downplay that as regrettable.

And in the back of my mind I have behaviors that I saw on TV. It's impossible to separate nature from nurture on some things.

I'm an all together more likable, sociable, interesting person who draws more positive attention (generally), and is less awkward... except when someone makes an issue of some part of the way I express myself, which at this point i generally can laugh off with something equivocal to "Well isn't that bloody obvious to everyone here, are you stupid?" or "Yeah I like that."

Of course, I'd really prefer to be a woman so my androgyny comes from being a man biologically but I'm trying to live in the vale between. It's not entirely horrible here.

edit: Elaboration on those lines just above this. I don't get hyper emotional and wig out about things, or go gaga over babies and other 'feminine' stuff. I'd be forcing it. When you want to criticize me and say 'you are a guy who does all this femme stuff but you can still tell someone 'i took a huge s**t' or other guy things, so you're androgynous' i guess that works. I'd have no strings sex with the right person just as I want to cuddle for hours with someone I love, etc etc. The thing is, people are always quick to marginalize the behavior of women too. Particularly in the trans community.

Women like sex. Not all women are afraid of bugs. Some women...like star trek! And computers! These are stupid personal traits/preferences that have been assigned to gender and it's just dumb.

There are a lot of men out there who want a straight up, classy woman to be with. There's millions out there who want to be able to watch the game and play world of warcraft with with a chick. Hell, the 'gamer girl' is like the bloody mecha of men of my generation. Beer swilling, football watching, internet game playing girl... who doesn't fuss about her clothes and hair or want flowers... and who likes a lot of casual sex then grabbing a sandwich. It's a man with breasts basically. And it's the ideal mate for probably the majority of men who aren't gay!

QuoteI know what you mean.  For me, it has a lot to do with what I'm wearing on bottom.  If I'm wearing my wonderfully, worn out jeans, I feel more boyish and more like me.  But sometimes, especially in the summer, I'll wear a skirt and then I feel more feminine and I act more feminine, unconsciously.  I wear skirts and capris because I don't like shorts.  That's it.  They are cooler than long pants and look better than shorts.  I'm going to get my hair cut again soon and it will be a pretty androgynous cut (if I explain it to my stylist correctly), so my hair doesn't affect me too much and I wear makeup most of the time because I like the way it looks, not because it's feminine. My neighbor at work called me a "girly girl" yesterday, because I wore a skirt and capris most of the week. I felt really weird when she said that.  Almost dirty.  Like I needed to wash the "girliness" off.  It's all in the bottoms...and shoes.  I do have some girly shoes that make me feel more feminine.  I generally prefer chucks or flip flops.  They make me feel more like me.

Snap! You're right, we could be twinses! Jeans, old sneakers (or boots, just 'cause they're cool), top (don't care what type), and often a really old jumper, 'cause I feel the cold REALLY easily. I don't know if it happens overseas or not, but in Australia we *have to wear* school uniform, and in most schools, the year 12s (the final year of highschool) get special jumpers (big, snug hoodie-things with big kangaroo pockets in the front with the name of the school, year and the names of all the year 12s on the back. They're brilliant!). Well, I finished year 12 in 2004, and I still wear mine all the time. I don't often give much thought to my appearance, particularly when I go into uni (I'm there to learn, not find someone to shack up with), and as I don't live in a particularly pretentious area of town, no-one where I live cares anyway. I have a gay friend who's always on at me about not caring what I look like, and that this is the image that I'm presenting to the world and do I not take any pride in my appearance? etc etc etc., which I find is really quite bizzare, that my male friend cares more about appearance/clothes/desginer labels/perfume etc. than I, a woman, do. But whenever I do try to put some effort into my appearance for anything mundane, I just stop feeling like *me*, and that I'm trying to be someone else. And yeah, acting or feeling 'girly' makes me feel dirty and just not right. 

(I was driving my brother home once from school, and there were these two girls standing at a set of traffic lights, both holding ridiculously small handbags. My brother (the epitome of straight, though without being homophobic) looked at them, turned to me, and said, "You know, it's really good to have a practical sister." Which was sort of nice ).

It also doesn't help that I have a fairly low singing voice. I *can* sing up the top of the soprano range when I want to, but I much prefer singing the bass line, which I can usually get (I can reach just past the lowest note of the tenor range, and further when I have a cold ).

So yeah...I don't know if that went off topic, but certainly the appearance aspect plays an important role (for me, anyway) in gender identity. I figure I sort of swing between feeling male and being androgynous; I very rarely exude femininity.

And I'm very sorry, but I'm a Jedi, not a Trekkie . And I love bugs! And mud! And jumping in puddles and getting everyone around me covered in dirty water! (And exclamation marks!!! Woo caffeine!!! ).


Right, I should really stop there before I embarrass myself any further.

Lutin,

(Who really should be getting started on their politics essay (2,000 words, due Wednesday), but somehow just cannot find the energy (or be bothered) to get the preparatory readings done... )

Quote from: Rebis on April 05, 2008, 07:12:19 PM
        I sometimes think that I am Rebecca the gender variant and not Robert the gender variant.
        Is that crazy?  No one's ever explained to me whether it's possible to be psychologically intersexed.  Or, is Androgyne the word for that?

I'd say androgyne is one word for it, although sometimes I'd prefer intergendered, to make it more clearly a mental counterpart of the physical intersexed conditions. And yes, I too feel often like I'm a gender-variant woman in a male body. In fact, just about every time I pay close enough attention to these aspects of myself.

Quote
Jaimey has a point.  I have noticed that if my bottoms are unisex, then I feel like a human being.  If they are masculine, I feel like a phony.

For me it's not just bottoms, but otherwise I agree.  The more clearly masculine I dress the more I feel like I'm putting on an act. It's not necessarily distressing, it just doesn't feel real. On the other hand, the idea of going for a fully feminine look doesn't feel any more 'real me'.

  Nfr

Clothing makes me feel more feminine or masculine, its not a lot but it does

But not matter how I cloth I always have some sort of bodily and vocal grace that only  very few men have, and most of them are indeed gay ^^

But Im not, and I prefer women actually

I think its both an act and a feeling, its intwined, this gender thing

QuoteBut not matter how I cloth I always have some sort of bodily and vocal grace that only very few men have, and most of them are indeed gay ^^

Veetje, can I just ask, are you a dancer? Just that I know dancing can make you more aware of your body and so give you a certain gracefulness, regardless of your gender or sexuality.


What we really need is for some head of state to be androgynous/transgendered/transsexual. *Then* the whole gender thing might be brought into the spotlight and become more widely accepted (and be investigated more closely) than 'tis now.

Or maybe the Secretary-General of the UN.... Now that would be good...

Ah, the politics of gender, eh?

Quote from: Lutin on April 06, 2008, 09:10:09 AM

QuoteBut not matter how I cloth I always have some sort of bodily and vocal grace that only very few men have, and most of them are indeed gay ^^

Veetje, can I just ask, are you a dancer? Just that I know dancing can make you more aware of your body and so give you a certain gracefulness, regardless of your gender or sexuality.

~

What we really need is for some head of state to be androgynous/transgendered/transsexual. *Then* the whole gender thing might be brought into the spotlight and become more widely accepted (and be investigated more closely) than 'tis now.

Or maybe the Secretary-General of the UN.... Now that would be good...

Ah, the politics of gender, eh?

No, Im not a dancer