Hi all,

While I'd suspected it for a while about a month ago I confirmed that I was bi/pan. As I've gotten more comfortable with the idea I've even realized times in the past when I was attracted to guys. I can also remember being absolutely terrified of this back when I was first coming to terms with being trans.

I have been trying to pursue a relationship with a woman, but that isn't working too well right now. Part of me is considering trying to explore this other side of my sexuality, but I keep getting these feelings that it would be wrong to do that, and it would be some sort of barrier that I don't want to cross.

Are there any tips on how to work through this?

Quote from: AnamethatstartswithE on January 06, 2019, 09:22:14 PM
Hi all,

While I'd suspected it for a while about a month ago I confirmed that I was bi/pan. As I've gotten more comfortable with the idea I've even realized times in the past when I was attracted to guys. I can also remember being absolutely terrified of this back when I was first coming to terms with being trans.

I have been trying to pursue a relationship with a woman, but that isn't working too well right now. Part of me is considering trying to explore this other side of my sexuality, but I keep getting these feelings that it would be wrong to do that, and it would be some sort of barrier that I don't want to cross.

Are there any tips on how to work through this?

You and I seem to be on the same page in the novel of Life.  While I did sexually explore with my best friend, a boy, when we were younger, we never kissed and were both more interested in girls.  I realized that when I was acting out my repressed feminine side, I was routinely thinking of him in a way that never crossed my male acting mind.  As  I am mentally exploring who my true self as Britney is, I found myself romantically thinking of a male Shipmate.  He is a good friend and we have similar interests, tastes and character.  At first, that weirded the heck out me.  Not so much that he is a guy, but that he was a Shipmate and that I never thought of him that way prior.  I have now accepted that heterosexuality as I transition.  However, I believe that I will be homosexual, as I still find women attractively alluring.  At this point, I am Bi in the spectrum.  I have also been looking at aspects that are pan.  Right now, I am the top of the mountain, trying to decide which path to journey down.  There is just too much flux to say either way for me, at this point.  One thing that I am for certain, when my mind and body get into synch, I will happily accept whichever one that I may be. 

I was at my semi monthly trans group meeting last night and this topic came up.  About 20 were in attendance - the majority are post transition and a few are currently transitioning.  It is a discussion group for 90 minutes and then some go out afterward.

Regarding this topic there were several in the crowd that felt that their sexual orientation has evolved post transition.  I think I include myself in that description.  My primary attraction is still women but I have had mild crushes on 2 transwomen and I find guys sort of attractive now which I never did in the slightest before transition.

Also I have read several articles that postulate that post transition it is not uncommon for sexual orientation to evolve.  Is it that you perceive yourself as more female?  Is it the estrogen?  IDK.  And some people don't change at all.  I think the point is not to fight however you feel.  Just go with it.  Be attracted to who you are attracted to and just be authentic.

Quote from: AnamethatstartswithE on January 06, 2019, 09:22:14 PM
Hi all,

While I'd suspected it for a while about a month ago I confirmed that I was bi/pan. As I've gotten more comfortable with the idea I've even realized times in the past when I was attracted to guys. I can also remember being absolutely terrified of this back when I was first coming to terms with being trans.

I have been trying to pursue a relationship with a woman, but that isn't working too well right now. Part of me is considering trying to explore this other side of my sexuality, but I keep getting these feelings that it would be wrong to do that, and it would be some sort of barrier that I don't want to cross.

Are there any tips on how to work through this?

Self acceptance is SO hard as we all know through accepting being trans, but it's very similar.  You have to be brutally honest with yourself and start to explore ideas (internet is VERY good for this!).  There's no shame in it as we are the same as the animals who exhibit all sorts of sexual and romantic behaviour. You are attracted to who you are attracted to.

There are a few aspects to this though.  Romantic attraction and sexual attraction.  Have you ever had a crush on a guy or could see yourself doing so?  That's a pretty good indicator of the romantic side.  My earliest memory of a crush was on a boy at school when I was around 10, but I did nothing about it as I didn't want to get beaten up!  The next episode was 8 years later when I started a sexual relationship with a family friend, but I fell in love and I got dumped when I wanted to come out to our families... oh well.

Sexually, I guess, try before you buy!  Do you get turned on by guys when you see images or videos of them naked?  That's usually a good sign.  Years ago, I got so desperate that I tried an on-line hookup site  (before smartphone apps) and just went and had sex with a guy. I was so desperate for sex that I did not care if I caught a disease and died, that's how much I wanted it and it was amazing and it confirmed a lot of things for me, now obviously I'm not suggesting that you do what I did! protection is always a good idea, but it did clarify a lot, well until his wife and daughter turned up but that's a different story!! lol 

I am trying to work through a sort of similar thing at the moment and that is internalised heterophobia, yes you read that right, HETEROphobia.  Since I was old enough to understand I have regarded myself as bisexual, then pansexual then homosexual, then after I realised that I was trans, I now might actually be a heterosexual!  This does not sit well with me as it's an alien concept but I do seem to have the same sexuality as a heterosexual woman.  The sexuality fits but the label does not, so I think we are both being hung up on labels and their societal meaning which for both of us has negative connotations.  I think we have to work through this and try to put behind us these negative concepts that we have learned growing up as they are unhealthy and are holding us back.  I hope this drivel has helped a little. 

V x

Quote from: VickyS on January 07, 2019, 10:52:41 AM
There are a few aspects to this though.  Romantic attraction and sexual attraction.  Have you ever had a crush on a guy or could see yourself doing so?  That's a pretty good indicator of the romantic side. 

My crushing on a guy is what finally confirmed for me that I was bi/pan. I'm still figuring out exactly what it is I find attractive, because with women I have a definite type, while the guys I've felt attraction to seem all over the place.

Being socialized male I've had a lot of guy friends, and there have been a few where the friendship felt different. This also sort of explains why I would sometimes wonder about kissing them. (This stuff is always so obvious in retrospect) As stated in my original post, when I think about being with a guy, especially since I haven't had bottom surgery, I get these feelings of "that's gay" and "I don't want to be one of THOSE people."

I know this is wrong, but de-gunkifying my brain of this stuff is a difficult process. While I come from a fairly conservative family we were never super religious, I can't imagine what lgbt people who grow up in fundamentalist households go through.

Quote from: AnamethatstartswithE on January 07, 2019, 11:18:49 AM
My crushing on a guy is what finally confirmed for me that I was bi/pan.

Yeah, that's a pretty good sign. 

QuoteI'm still figuring out exactly what it is I find attractive, because with women I have a definite type, while the guys I've felt attraction to seem all over the place.

Well, kinda the same here.  It's weird isn't it? I don't think I have a type any more.  I used to like only very feminine looking men. Had a MAJOR crush on Boy George in the 80s    Later in life though I've seen big hairy super masculine men and found myself drooling over them. I suppose we like what we like although these days, personality and kindness is the biggest turn on for me.

QuoteBeing socialized male I've had a lot of guy friends, and there have been a few where the friendship felt different. This also sort of explains why I would sometimes wonder about kissing them. (This stuff is always so obvious in retrospect)

Yes, I know where you are coming from. 

QuoteAs stated in my original post, when I think about being with a guy, especially since I haven't had bottom surgery, I get these feelings of "that's gay" and "I don't want to be one of THOSE people."

I think it's helpful to delve into WHY you don't want to be one of THOSE people.  What is it exactly that's disgusting you?  then explore that and demystify it.  It might help to watch some gay content on youtube.  Something like RuPaul's Drag race or the various off-shoots like trixie & katya, unhhhh, WOWpresents or any other LGBT programming.  That might help de-sensitise you to gay culture and people as well as them being very entertaining and SO funny.

QuoteI know this is wrong, but de-gunkifying my brain of this stuff is a difficult process. While I come from a fairly conservative family we were never super religious, I can't imagine what lgbt people who grow up in fundamentalist households go through.

Oh it's extremely difficult to de-gunkify your brain and will take a very long time but it will come eventually although it might take years.  I was brought up in Catholic schools and taught by nuns who used to beat me on occasion (not just me lol)  that fear of god and being told he can see your every thought and to not have anything to do with girls (let alone boys) took a very long time to throw off.  If I'm honest, I was probably in my 30s before I was finally free from any thoughts of a god being able to peer into my skull.  It's a long process, but we'll get there. 

I brought the question of my sexuality up with my psychologist yesterday.  I told her that I feel i am 100% lesbian, and could not even imagine to be with a guy. 
She asked what I dislike about guys, I said, almost everything, and that i still would feel any interaction with a guy as being a gay thing, what I dislike a  lot (to say it bluntly, I don't like my A** being touched in any other way than than by TP  My wife and I tried it, and we both disliked any aspect of it).
She wondered what if the guy has a very feminin appearance, and you can forget about his genitals, would you feel you might want to hug him, and probably even kiss him, and I said yes, I could imagine this, because it meets more my desire of being with women. 
She asked more details and discussed situations, and than brought up her conclusion!
She feels that my dislike of male, specifically of male genitalia is actually a very strong version of my dysphoria projecting the dislike of my own genitalia onto that of all men. 
She said she hardly has seen a genital dysphoria much heavier than mine, and here I thought I was OK with my bits down there.  She is of the opinion that i need surgery as soon as possible to eliminate this really bad case of dysphoria.

And here I was stating all over this place that I am lesbian, and nothing but lesbian, while, in reality, i might be Bi?

I just need to find some girlish looking guys to check this out!

Quote from: Dietlind on January 09, 2019, 08:21:15 AM
I brought the question of my sexuality up with my psychologist yesterday.  I told her that I feel i am 100% lesbian, and could not even imagine to be with a guy. 
She asked what I dislike about guys, I said, almost everything, and that i still would feel any interaction with a guy as being a gay thing, what I dislike a  lot (to say it bluntly, I don't like my A** being touched in any other way than than by TP  My wife and I tried it, and we both disliked any aspect of it).
She wondered what if the guy has a very feminin appearance, and you can forget about his genitals, would you feel you might want to hug him, and probably even kiss him, and I said yes, I could imagine this, because it meets more my desire of being with women. 
She asked more details and discussed situations, and than brought up her conclusion!
She feels that my dislike of male, specifically of male genitalia is actually a very strong version of my dysphoria projecting the dislike of my own genitalia onto that of all men. 
She said she hardly has seen a genital dysphoria much heavier than mine, and here I thought I was OK with my bits down there.  She is of the opinion that i need surgery as soon as possible to eliminate this really bad case of dysphoria.

And here I was stating all over this place that I am lesbian, and nothing but lesbian, while, in reality, i might be Bi?

I just need to find some girlish looking guys to check this out!

Ponder this more, keep talking with your therapist.  You are strong in your opinions about many things, that does not mean they are necessarily bad or good opinions.   She has noticed that strength of conviction or preference in regards to your thoughts about males.

You will figure this all out.  Give it time.   

Chrissy

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on January 09, 2019, 10:36:26 AM

Ponder this more, keep talking with your therapist.  You are strong in your opinions about many things, that does not mean they are necessarily bad or good opinions.   She has noticed that strength of conviction or preference in regards to your thoughts about males.

You will figure this all out.  Give it time.   

Chrissy

Yes, i all of a sudden have to open more windows and might be forced to change my thinking.  I hate it, because feeling 100% lesbian was pretty safe and secure for me.  I know how to deal with females, I have no idea how to handle guys!  It scares me in a way!

I myself find it hard to say I was "Socialized" one way or another because at my earliest ages I felt wrong about the "Your a boy!" label and was desperate to fit in with the girls instead.  So, being rejected by the girls, I didn't fit in anywhere.  The bullying (and abuse) started REALLY early for me.  So as I went through elementary school I did feel the beginnings of attraction to girls and never once contemplated attraction to a guy.  But...

There was always something off with how I related to the girls.  My primary attraction to them as I hit the nightmare that was puberty was NOT carnal.  Thus, I would decide I liked someone and the approach I would take invariably landed me in the best friendships I ever had.  This was a pattern repeated with every girl I ever liked.

Enter anger.  Due to certain circumstances, I had periods where all prior memory of myself would get buried under a mountain of anger.  It was easy as a sophomore in high-school then for the people I became associated with to see me as male because the only outward expression I had was defiance and anger.  I for all intents and purposes presented as a criminal.  Pretending to be one by actually being one (don't want to get into the things I've seen in my life right now /sigh).  Girls in that circle took notice and pursued me.  In that circumstance another pattern would emerge.  They see a "Bad Boy" and take an interest.  We start seeing each other.  Weeks, maybe as much as months later, they start to see under the surface and break up with me because I'm too emotional; too sensitive; "Too much like a girl".  I was actually told that several times!

That's how things were for four years of self destructive behaviors and attempts at ending it all doing the absolute stupidest things you can imagine.  As well as at least four plans executed to the last step...  Only to stop.  I think deep down I knew I didn't do anything wrong.  That period ended only when a close "Friend" was killed doing something as stupid as I had been doing and I broke.

So back to the subject...  I had always ASSUMED that I didn't like guys.  Not just in terms of attraction but period!  They made my life a hell from my earliest memories.  I never wanted to be around them, never wanted to be friends with them.  I tolerated them only.  I could NEVER connect to a guy, ever.  Yeah, found out that was lie.

Among the memories I had buried over the years there were three guys who broke through by barriers.  I had buried these "friendships" so deep I didn't even know they were there until everything came back to me last year.  The first was a friend in the seventh grade.  My first period of anger deletion.  He was always quick tempered and defended his girlfriend against any slight.  He had a strained relationship with his dad.  His mom had died when he was three and his dad was disciplinarian to say the least.  But he friended me because he knew I needed a friend.  He was sweet.  and really freaking hot.  So...  I remember very clearly how I felt about him back when we were hanging out.  Never told him these feelings and I don't know if he noticed but I acted...  Different.  For all intents and purposes I acted like I had an unrequited crush on him...  And never once a sexual thought.  My feelings were too bent at that point.  I was really jealous of his girlfriend.  In my mind she wasn't pretty enough for him.  I used to get mad when he would hang out with her and her best friend without me.  Hundreds of other examples.  From what I know now...  He was my first crush.

The other two guys mentioned above were under different circumstances but the same thing.  Too many clues ignored at the time.  The third was the first person I ever truly loved.  Actual true and impossible love.  /sigh  He saved my life.  And I saved his.  Different story for another time.

Thing is, after everything I had been through, I finally found a way out in my mind and went away to college to "run away".  And run away I did.  I buried everything all over again one final time (this time by actually "deleting" the memories not just covering them up) and spent an enormous amount of energy convincing myself I was a "Normal Guy".  Found my wife.  Started life.  Twenty years later, I'm still upside down.  Oddly it was the things that happened when I was alone during those twenty years which clued me in after I got my memory back.  I never asked myself why, in my own "alone time" during that period I was always imagining myself as the female in the encounter...  With men.

Now that everything is out in the open I can admit it.  I'm still married and don't want to use the body I currently have for anything right now...  But I am Bi/Pan.  Never knew it till I was able to admit I was trans, but now I know that's what I am.  It's what I always was, I think.   There was just too much going on for me to be able to feel it.  And I'm curious as heck (really really really curious actually.  :-) but will never cheat (never have, never will).  Oh well.  Who knows what the future holds.

<3

Quote from: Dietlind on January 09, 2019, 08:21:15 AM
I just need to find some girlish looking guys to check this out!

Justin Belieber is unavailable, sorry.

For me it's also interesting in that I seem to be attracted to femme women, and masculine guys. I'm not sure what that's all about. Also while personality is very important to me for both men and women, ersonalitu seems to matter more for having me be attracted to a guy initially, while it's more important for establishing a connection with a girl.

It's funny, I seem to be very much a "catcher" not a "pitcher" if you understand my metaphor. That used to make me super duper uncomfortable when I was trying to date as a guy. When I was still a guy and would go to parties I would try to make myself as attractive as possible while hoping that girls would just come and talk to me. Again when I look back at my life, all of this stuff is super obvious.

Quote from: ErinAscending on January 09, 2019, 11:29:29 AM
I myself find it hard to say I was "Socialized" one way or another because at my earliest ages I felt wrong about the "Your a boy!" label and was desperate to fit in with the girls instead.  So, being rejected by the girls, I didn't fit in anywhere.  The bullying (and abuse) started REALLY early for me.  So as I went through elementary school I did feel the beginnings of attraction to girls and never once contemplated attraction to a guy.  But...

There was always something off with how I related to the girls.  My primary attraction to them as I hit the nightmare that was puberty was NOT carnal.  Thus, I would decide I liked someone and the approach I would take invariably landed me in the best friendships I ever had.  This was a pattern repeated with every girl I ever liked.

Enter anger.  Due to certain circumstances, I had periods where all prior memory of myself would get buried under a mountain of anger.  It was easy as a sophomore in high-school then for the people I became associated with to see me as male because the only outward expression I had was defiance and anger.  I for all intents and purposes presented as a criminal.  Pretending to be one by actually being one (don't want to get into the things I've seen in my life right now /sigh).  Girls in that circle took notice and pursued me.  In that circumstance another pattern would emerge.  They see a "Bad Boy" and take an interest.  We start seeing each other.  Weeks, maybe as much as months later, they start to see under the surface and break up with me because I'm too emotional; too sensitive; "Too much like a girl".  I was actually told that several times!

That's how things were for four years of self destructive behaviors and attempts at ending it all doing the absolute stupidest things you can imagine.  As well as at least four plans executed to the last step...  Only to stop.  I think deep down I knew I didn't do anything wrong.  That period ended only when a close "Friend" was killed doing something as stupid as I had been doing and I broke.

So back to the subject...  I had always ASSUMED that I didn't like guys.  Not just in terms of attraction but period!  They made my life a hell from my earliest memories.  I never wanted to be around them, never wanted to be friends with them.  I tolerated them only.  I could NEVER connect to a guy, ever.  Yeah, found out that was lie.

Among the memories I had buried over the years there were three guys who broke through by barriers.  I had buried these "friendships" so deep I didn't even know they were there until everything came back to me last year.  The first was a friend in the seventh grade.  My first period of anger deletion.  He was always quick tempered and defended his girlfriend against any slight.  He had a strained relationship with his dad.  His mom had died when he was three and his dad was disciplinarian to say the least.  But he friended me because he knew I needed a friend.  He was sweet.  and really freaking hot.  So...  I remember very clearly how I felt about him back when we were hanging out.  Never told him these feelings and I don't know if he noticed but I acted...  Different.  For all intents and purposes I acted like I had an unrequited crush on him...  And never once a sexual thought.  My feelings were too bent at that point.  I was really jealous of his girlfriend.  In my mind she wasn't pretty enough for him.  I used to get mad when he would hang out with her and her best friend without me.  Hundreds of other examples.  From what I know now...  He was my first crush.

The other two guys mentioned above were under different circumstances but the same thing.  Too many clues ignored at the time.  The third was the first person I ever truly loved.  Actual true and impossible love.  /sigh  He saved my life.  And I saved his.  Different story for another time.

Thing is, after everything I had been through, I finally found a way out in my mind and went away to college to "run away".  And run away I did.  I buried everything all over again one final time (this time by actually "deleting" the memories not just covering them up) and spent an enormous amount of energy convincing myself I was a "Normal Guy".  Found my wife.  Started life.  Twenty years later, I'm still upside down.  Oddly it was the things that happened when I was alone during those twenty years which clued me in after I got my memory back.  I never asked myself why, in my own "alone time" during that period I was always imagining myself as the female in the encounter...  With men.

Now that everything is out in the open I can admit it.  I'm still married and don't want to use the body I currently have for anything right now...  But I am Bi/Pan.  Never knew it till I was able to admit I was trans, but now I know that's what I am.  It's what I always was, I think.   There was just too much going on for me to be able to feel it.  And I'm curious as heck (really really really curious actually.  :-) but will never cheat (never have, never will).  Oh well.  Who knows what the future holds.

<3

And all too familiar story.  Many of us took membership into the He Man, Women  Haters Club to drown out our misidentity sorrows.

Quote from: AnamethatstartswithE on January 09, 2019, 12:22:45 PM
For me it's also interesting in that I seem to be attracted to femme women, and masculine guys. I'm not sure what that's all about. Also while personality is very important to me for both men and women, ersonalitu seems to matter more for having me be attracted to a guy initially, while it's more important for establishing a connection with a girl.

It's funny, I seem to be very much a "catcher" not a "pitcher" if you understand my metaphor. That used to make me super duper uncomfortable when I was trying to date as a guy. When I was still a guy and would go to parties I would try to make myself as attractive as possible while hoping that girls would just come and talk to me. Again when I look back at my life, all of this stuff is super obvious.

I know exactly what you are saying.  Always wanted to be sought.  Which is why, I think, the only GFs I ever had were the ones who thought they were getting that "Bad Boy" thing people assumed I was.  I never approached them.  They approached me.

As to the difference.  I have been guy watching since I figured all this out and find the same thing.  I am attracted to both women and men...  But from two completely different places in my heart.  It's hard to explain.  So I don't think I'll try.  Maybe to my therapist.

Quote from: Dietlind on January 09, 2019, 08:21:15 AM
I brought the question of my sexuality up with my psychologist yesterday.  I told her that I feel i am 100% lesbian, and could not even imagine to be with a guy. 
She asked what I dislike about guys, I said, almost everything, and that i still would feel any interaction with a guy as being a gay thing, what I dislike a  lot (to say it bluntly, I don't like my A** being touched in any other way than than by TP  My wife and I tried it, and we both disliked any aspect of it).
She wondered what if the guy has a very feminin appearance, and you can forget about his genitals, would you feel you might want to hug him, and probably even kiss him, and I said yes, I could imagine this, because it meets more my desire of being with women. 
She asked more details and discussed situations, and than brought up her conclusion!
She feels that my dislike of male, specifically of male genitalia is actually a very strong version of my dysphoria projecting the dislike of my own genitalia onto that of all men. 
She said she hardly has seen a genital dysphoria much heavier than mine, and here I thought I was OK with my bits down there.  She is of the opinion that i need surgery as soon as possible to eliminate this really bad case of dysphoria.

And here I was stating all over this place that I am lesbian, and nothing but lesbian, while, in reality, i might be Bi?

I just need to find some girlish looking guys to check this out!

I'm so glad you added this to the discussion! You seem to describe me is so many ways, and your psychologist's insights really resonated with me. I'll be thinking about this for days
I consider myself a settled lesbian and can't imagine a male body next to mine. In fact, it repulses me. But if this is related to my own physical dysphoria, then I can understand how other dynamics are at play. In the past week I've started to see that I have the "wrong" genitals, which surprised me. I didn't plan to have bottom surgery but now I'm considering it. I do hope we can figure this out for ourselves and I suspect we will!

Amie June

Quote from: Amie June on January 09, 2019, 03:12:26 PM
I'm so glad you added this to the discussion! You seem to describe me is so many ways, and your psychologist's insights really resonated with me. I'll be thinking about this for days
I consider myself a settled lesbian and can't imagine a male body next to mine. In fact, it repulses me. But if this is related to my own physical dysphoria, then I can understand how other dynamics are at play. In the past week I've started to see that I have the "wrong" genitals, which surprised me. I didn't plan to have bottom surgery but now I'm considering it. I do hope we can figure this out for ourselves and I suspect we will!

Amie June

Yes, we could be emotional twins!  For me, it almost causes a throw up effect, just thinking about of having to touch male genitalia.  I still think that male genitalia is extremely ugly (but again, I still have my stuff around to feed those thoughts).  I am absolutely confused about my feelings now, and I really don't want to let go of the feeling of me being lesbian, because I am very comfortable around women.  I really don't know how to deal with men outside the buddy kind of system and padding each others shoulders!
Luckily, I don't know any men I would be attracted to, and I do not have to make a decission about this!

Quote from: Dietlind on January 09, 2019, 03:46:55 PM
I really don't know how to deal with men outside the buddy kind of system and padding each others shoulders!

Strange, all of my male buddies slapped each other on the buttocks!  Than again, we were jocks, party animals, head bangers, punkers, and goat roapers.  Even more strange, my pals in choir and drama never did that and 3 of them came out as gay.

Quote from: BritneyX on January 09, 2019, 05:59:50 PM
Strange, all of my male buddies slapped each other on the buttocks!  Than again, we were jocks, party animals, head bangers, punkers, and goat roapers.  Even more strange, my pals in choir and drama never did that and 3 of them came out as gay.

I either lived in a beautiful heterosexual oasis, or I was to naive to be able to identify gay people!  I still have to knowingly meet a gay or lesbian person!  I am simply not able to identify them, I don't know for what kinds of clues I would need to look!
And here I sit, hoping to find a lesbian partner!

Quote from: Dietlind on January 09, 2019, 06:39:15 PM
I either lived in a beautiful heterosexual oasis, or I was to naive to be able to identify gay people!  I still have to knowingly meet a gay or lesbian person!  I am simply not able to identify them, I don't know for what kinds of clues I would need to look!
And here I sit, hoping to find a lesbian partner!

I have always had an industrial grade gaydar.  I just used it as a fun game of observation, like how I could always tell the difference between a police car, fire truck, and ambulance.  I held the awe of every kid on the block, which was just one kid.   

Quote from: Dietlind on January 09, 2019, 03:46:55 PM
just thinking about of having to touch male genitalia.  I still think that male genitalia is extremely hugely

Come on Linde, is this a Freudian slip or what?