Quote from: spouse on March 15, 2006, 02:55:19 PM
Kimberly, the "your people" was just a little jab at Haz for lumping "Others" (I assume signifant "others") together.

From what I read, it didn't sound that way at all.  Besides, everyone here calls the SO's and not "others".  I see the misunderstanding was probably a result of "others" being capitalized.  Is sounds like by "Others", Haz meant "Others who come in contact with the TS" as is first stated.  The truth is, most SO's are not the ones to attempt to guide a TS away by saying the TS doesn't know what is best for themselves.  The most common reaction from SO's is "If you transition, I'll leave".  In my experience, it is parents and siblings that have been the ones to say "I know what's better for you than you know yourself".

Melissa

Quote from: Leigh on March 15, 2006, 12:21:20 AM
http://www.cauldronfarm.com/writing/wouldbeletter.html

Well that is disconcerting. So is this;

http://www.sfbg.com/40/24/cover_trans.html

And to think that is the safest city to be in for a transgendered person!!

Quote from: Lori on March 16, 2006, 07:35:16 AM
Well that is disconcerting. So is this;
...

I did not think so...

Perhaps this is of value, perhaps not.

Quote1. Educating ...

Already planed on that.

Quote2. You will be discriminated against. ...

So, it's an inevitibility. Besides, it's nice when the idiots identify themselves.
(I've never been normal; this is nothing new)

Quote3. Passing ...

I have no desire to live in a closet thank you very much. If people can deal with me that is great, if not that is fine.

Quote4. You may have difficulty finding employment. ...

I am self employed for a reason.

Quote5. If you found cross-dressing erotic before transition, ...

Erotic? what is that? Sorry, I'm pretty much sexually dead.

Quote6. You won't ever have a normal body of a member of the opposite sex.

Yea, that bites. Oh well, it is better than having a malformed body with the wrong hormones.

Quote7. There's no guarantee that your body dysphoria will ever go away entirely.

I know it won't. To bad so sad. Getting rid of parts I don't like is one brick in a wall;

Quote8. If you do get surgery, it may be less than ideal. It will hurt. It will certainly cost a lot.

Yea, but temporary stuff by and large.
It IS stupid to throw away a perfectly functioning body but ^*shrug* a broken one is still better than what was.

Quote9. If you enjoyed being naked in front of people before ...

Naked? Are you kidding me? NOT ON YOUR LIFE!

Quote10. Your dating pool will shrink drastically. ...

Gee, from none to none. Actually I expect it to go UP. ... and if it doesn't so what has changed? I'll die an old maid.

Quote11. You may lose your family. ...

Only thing that bothered me; I haven't, lost any I can not live without.
Yea, my brother might freak; Then again I may never hear from him again anyway...

Quote12. You may lose many or even all of your friends. ...

Friends? I have some? ... Sorry I didn't call anyone friend until I came here.

Quote13. You may lose your children. ...

Nope, some slight painful advantage to being single 28 years.

Quote14. You may lose your religious community. ...

I am NOT a sheep.

Quote15. People will ask you rude questions about your genitalia.....for the rest of your life. ...

Uh, yea so? As I said above about idiots, it's nice when they identify themselves.

Quote16. Statistically, you will be much more likely to be assaulted and/or killed by hatemongers. ...

Yea, this one bites no getting around it; but then life has never been safe so what else is new?

Quote17. If you do go to jail, you have a higher likelihood of being killed while in prison. ...

That is presuming I live to get to jail, and that I was a bad girl to go there in the first place.

Quote18. You will have trouble finding medical care. Every doctor must be educated, and many will turn you away on the grounds of being transsexual. ...

This is a bit troubling, but it does not change a damn thing.
I don't mind educating.
Any who would turn me away, well I have no desire to deal with bigots anyway so it's nice that they identified themselves too...

Quote19. Being on hormones usually means being dependent on a substance ...

Yep this one stinks, no getting around that; However it does not change a damn thing either.

Quote20. There are certain parts of the globe that you can absolutely never visit ...

I am a hermit; I want to be left alone; If I want to see the world it will be from the deck of my ship.


Have you noticed that the things I don't like don't matter?

Ok, let me have a go at it...

Quote
1. Educating ...

No Problem.  Once I get this down, it will work to my advantage.

Quote
2. You will be discriminated against. ...

Yeah.  More motivation to pass.  Also, in the area I live in, there are now laws against this.  It allows me to at least seek legal recourse if this happens.  I know it doesn't mean much, but it could help.  And if I win, I could use the money.

Quote
3. Passing ...

There are many options available that can help one pass including FFS, voice training, breast augs, and mannerisms can be learned.

Quote
4. You may have difficulty finding employment. ...

Unfortunately, this is a big one.  However, I am a very skilled person, so I just need to find a company that doesn't discriminate and I have a fairly good chance.  Also, who wants to work for a company that discriminates in the first place?

Quote
5. If you found cross-dressing erotic before transition, ...

Nope.  Just they're clothes.

Quote
6. You won't ever have a normal body of a member of the opposite sex.

Unfortunately true.  Can't do much about that.  However, it will be a lot closer than before transition.

Quote
7. There's no guarantee that your body dysphoria will ever go away entirely.

I know, but at least I will have tried.

Quote
8. If you do get surgery, it may be less than ideal. It will hurt. It will certainly cost a lot.

One can hope for the best though.  Choosing a good surgeon and lots of research can help minimize this.  Yes it will cost a lot, but then again, doesn't anything worthwhile in life?

Quote
9. If you enjoyed being naked in front of people before ...

Not particularly.

Quote
10. Your dating pool will shrink drastically. ...

True.  But how many single people are there in the world again?

Quote
11. You may lose your family. ...

Everyone knows.  My parents and siblings aren't happy with it, but they still accept me as family.  If me and my wife decide to go our own separate ways, I will look at it as beginning a new adventure.

Quote
12. You may lose many or even all of your friends. ...

Didn't have many to begin with.  Kept the ones I had and in fact made more friends than before, so I have already come out ahead.

Quote
13. You may lose your children. ...

This won't happen.  My wife isn't that kind of person.

Quote
14. You may lose your religious community. ...

Been there.  Done that.  I'll just find a new church.  Besides, going to church is not a requirement to be saved in the christian religion.  You just need to accept Christ as your savior.

Quote
15. People will ask you rude questions about your genitalia.....for the rest of your life. ...

Whether you answer them or not is your own choice.

Quote
16. Statistically, you will be much more likely to be assaulted and/or killed by hatemongers. ...

I'm aware of this.  I just exercise extra caution.  If something happens, then it was meant to be.  That doesn't man I can't prepare myself though.

Quote
17. If you do go to jail, you have a higher likelihood of being killed while in prison. ...

As Kimberly said, only if the can get me there alive.  This is also a good reason to be a law-abiding citizen.

Quote
18. You will have trouble finding medical care. Every doctor must be educated, and many will turn you away on the grounds of being transsexual. ...

I know enough doctors that are accepting of transsexuals, that this isn't a problem.

Quote
19. Being on hormones usually means being dependent on a substance ...

There are many people who are dependant on medications.  This is nothing new.

Quote
20. There are certain parts of the globe that you can absolutely never visit ...

Any place that transsexuals are not allowed, I wouldn't be visiting anyways.

So, although they are annoyances, I am prepared to deal with any that might bother me.  I have heard there are 2 kinds of people in this world.  Those who see the problems and those who see the solutions.  Think about that.

Melissa

I'll go over it too.

#1: Actually, I found myself happily explaining this to friends early on. Maybe it was just the need to talk about it, and I suppose that might grow old after the umpteenth time.

#2: Bummer. But hey, the way I look and act now when I'm not presenting as female, I'd probably be subject to similar forms of bigotry. No way am I getting back into repressing myself under that phony male exterior.

#3: Assumptions about gender, not about me. As for passing, yeah it's a strain sometimes. It isn't easy to make a bass voice sound female, but somehow I manage most of the time.

#4: I did have a job that would have been perfect, at least as far as my employer. With the job I'm at now, I can only hope that I've made as good an impression as they tell me I have...

#5: Nope - I never found dressing as a male to be erotic and I'll be ever so glad to never have to do so anymore. 

#6: As long as it's not a hairy cylindrical male body, sign me up!

#7: Even just diminishing the dysphoria is better than doing nothing.

#8: Sure, there are risks involved, but doing nothing will mean keeping something I can't use.

#9: Nope, I'll keep my clothes on thank you.

#10: So the pool will shrink - but not disappear completely. Shouldn't be much need for a long explanation beyond "treat me as you would any other woman."

As an aside, I wonder why it is harder for FTMs? Personally, I would have expected it be the other way around.

#11: Parents are okay with it. Actually my biggest concern among family is my sister. NO idea at all how she'd take it, and we never did get to be as close growing up as I would have liked. 

#12: Oddly enough, I've only had problems with one friend after telling them, and it was out of his insistence that I was being fake by doing this (yeah right  ). The rest have been understanding.

#13: Don't have any, don't want any.

#14: Atheist here - although I happen to know of a supporive church in my area.

#15: My answer: "Why do you want to know?"

#16: It stinks that this is the case, but it's not worth spending my life in a shell out of fear.

#17: Shouldn't happen, but I've seen good people get mixed up in bad situations. See #16.

#18: See #16.

#19: Just means keeping enough of a cushion in the bank account.

#20: Probably places I was never planning to go anyway.

Melissa, I liked your thinking about 2 kinds of people in the world:  "Those who see the problems and those who see the solutions."  It reminds me of Ted Kennedy talking about Bobby, "Some people see things as they are and ask why.  He looked at things and asked, "Why not?"  Both are about DOING something rather than just talking about it.

Melissa and Kimberly were, in my opinion, very level headed, smart, clever and humorous with their answers!  What great examples of smart new women!  I particularly liked how Kimberly faces discrimination:  "It's nice when the idiots identify themselves."  I wish I'd read this way of looking at things when I was transitioning.  Often, as I've mentioned, I used the word "Control" as a sort of mantra.  But this is just as affective, if not more.  And the echo of Kimberly's above "nice when idiots identify themselves" philosophy is the great standard: "Have you noticed that the things I don't like don't matter?" 

Both Melissa and Kimberly are going to live to very old ages.  Nothing throws or upsets you'all!

Spouse, you mentioned that "some form of superficial transformation is necessary."  Yes, society does like its clues.  I just prefer subtle ones.  It's funny.  When I was transitioning, I had a great fear of someone calling me a fake.  I guess I'd lived somewhat of a lie my whole life by keeping my feminine soul inside.  Then, in transitioning, I had to put on a wig to pass.  More fakery.  And yet, I look to GG's and when I hear them and they're saying, "Oh, it's sooo feminine!" -- It's usually clothing and/or makeup they're talking about, not a woman's body. 

The architect Frank Lloyd Wright, when he designed places, tried to avoid what he called, "applied ornamentation."  Instead of hanging pictures on a wall as most people do, he'd integrate the art into the building.  In transitioning, I likewise hated the "applied ornamentation" aspect and tried, whenever I could, to integrate a stereotypical woman's look INTO my body rather than applying it.  So, that meant, getting rid of the wig when transplants negated a need, getting rid of lipstick and eyeliner (I had "permanent" makeup put on in an almost tatoo-like process (without any buzzing instrument).  I know, technically, it IS still "applied ornamentation" but, to me, it's more integral.  It's all silly but was my way of combating my initial transition nervousness of society saying I was a fake.

Now, I'm far more confident and, as the "permanent" makeup fades I don't worry about it.  There still seem to be enough clues for people who meet me - even when dressed in non-gender jogging outfits - for people to see the me inside.  And, if they don't well, I'll take up that Kimberly philosophy, "it's nice when the idiots identify themselves."

Teri Anne

1.  This one is easy.  Melissa ask your Dr. about it.  I was born left handed but society tried to make me right handed--didn't take.

2.  P. T. Barnum:  You can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time but you can't fool all of the people all of the time,  I am totally so far out of the closet that even the ones with my clothes have no doors.  If someone has a prob with me its theirs to own.  I have neither the time, desire or energy to worry about it.

3.  I'm me.  If I pass ok--if not so what?

4.  I'm lucky, my work history goes back to 1985 under my name.

5. If you found cross-dressing erotic before transition,  About as erotic as sticking a fork in my eye. Its just doing the same thing day after day, no difference than before cept I like me now.

6.  Better than the alternative.

7.  you may still get attacks of dysphoria, especially when you try to have sex.
   Not so you would notice and its not try, I can leave that word out


8.  See #6

9. If you enjoyed being naked in front of people before   Not a chance in hell.  Now its common place.

10.  This only applies if the sex does not match the gender.  Fortunatlely mine does.

11.  Their loss, my gain.  They lost family, I gained the knowledge that they really were not.

12.  See #11

13.  We are closer emotionally than ever and I have no desire to raise another one.  I did it all alone for almost 17 years.

14.  Does not apply.

15. Are you planning on sleeping with me? If you're not why do you need to know?

16.  You pays your money you take your chances.  I would have been more likely to injure myself without surgery than having someone do it afterward.

17.  I'm a lesbian.  What exactly is the downside to being with all women?   

18.  My current Dr. has no problems and she is not connected with the trans community.


19.  So is every other woman my age.


20.  So I'm not going to use my passport to go to the Middle East, no loss there

9. If you enjoyed being naked in front of people before   Not a chance in hell.  Now its common place.


And that, Leigh, makes me jealous. I will never, even if I have bottom surgery, pass in a group of strangers naked.

But as for the rest of it. I could not have imagined how beneficial transition would be to me. I thought I'd lose everything, job, spouse, family, opportunities, and I just figured I'd make the best of what came. What did come was increased respect, career advantage, comfort in my own body that I could not have imagined, and a very contented, happy life.

Dennis

Quote from: Dennis on March 17, 2006, 02:42:56 AM
I could not have imagined how beneficial transition would be to me. I thought I'd lose everything, job, spouse, family, opportunities, and I just figured I'd make the best of what came. What did come was increased respect, career advantage, comfort in my own body that I could not have imagined, and a very contented, happy life.

OK my turn to be jealous. 

Seriously though, it's kind of similar to the cruel irony that the women get the physiological advantage and the men more often get the aesthetic advantage. 

Quote from: Dennis on March 17, 2006, 02:42:56 AM
I will never, even if I have bottom surgery, pass in a group of strangers naked.

I know Dennis and for whats its worth I think it SUX.  Its just not right that you/men can present so well and then the surgery falls short of what it could be.  I do know that the results are getting better just as ours did over the years.  I think part of the reason is supply and demand.  The % of men and women are skewed to our side so we do get more doctors working for us.  That and the fact that its easier to make something out of something  rather than making it out of basically little material.

I win the lottery and I'll fund the reasearch.

Leigh

Quote2.  P. T. Barnum:  You can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time but you can't fool all of the people all of the time,

Thought that was Abe Lincoln except please instead of fool.

Cassie

Quote from: Cassandra Anna Hefton on March 18, 2006, 12:54:31 AM
Thought that was Abe Lincoln except please instead of fool.

In a now famous quote, President Abraham Lincoln was said to have commented to a visitor to the White House in 1865: "If you once forfeit the confidence of your fellow citizens, you can never regain their respect and esteem. It is true that you may fool all of the people some of the time; you can even fool some of the people all of the time; but you can't fool all of the people all of the time."

ok so I shot myself in the foot.  P T Barnum was the one about the sucker born every minute

Hmm, that Abe was pretty smart.  And it probably took a lot of grit to stick with the Civil War that killed such a horrific amount of young men.  I see the photos and am stunned.  It's unimaginable.

In our war, called transition, we have lost so many over the years.  Gwen in San Francisco (founder of the old TS meeting place, "Gazebo"), has an online web list of remembrance of TS's that have passed on.  I wonder if, at some point, someone will erect a monument to OUR war dead.

Teri Anne

Quote from: spouse on March 14, 2006, 10:38:19 PM

HAZ - As one of the "others" with a vested interest in one of "your people", I would certainly love it if my husband chose not to transition. My apple-cart wouldn't be upset. That's the selfish side of me. I know he will annoy and aggravate anyone he has to so he can get the information he needs to decide what is best for him. If he concludes that transitioning would be the best thing for him, I will support his decision 100%. I love him *at least* that much.

If you start up one of those homes for transitioning TS's or find that one already exists, I'd happily make a donation.

"Your People" -- it certainly is a loaded word, isn't it?  But I went first with "Others", trying to come up with something to describe with an economy those people who have what I termed a compulsion to intervene with the transitioner and stop them from transitioning.  Someone stating "I don't think what you're doing is such a good idea," two or three times is not a compulsion, someone who has stated opposition to the transitioner transitioning but will otherwise not interfere (and may even support in some small way) is not compulsion.  What I meant by compulsion is those persons who will never accept that the transitioner is transitioning -- in a sports metaphor, the game is never over.  Therefore, you don't fit the category (as you said in a later post you will support your TS spouse.  But I'm sure you have met some people who fit the Others category I defined.)

Spouse, my apologies for my rather 'salty' posting.  I admit to using your posting as a springboard to my diatribe, but it wasn't aimed specifically at you, although, obviously, I didn't make that clear, for which I apologise to you.  But it was a topic I wanted to bring somewhat into focus. 

I'll throw this in here, not aimed at anyone in particular... When being harangued about something by someone, to the point I feel the harangue-er is not being rational about the subject, I ask, "Is this for my good?  Or for yours?"  Used properly, this question quickly promotes rational debate. 

Spouse, it's okay to be selfish.  If both you and your TS SO are selfish and allow the other to be selfish, it may bring the issues into clearer focus and allow you both to work towards a mutually agreeable resolution.  The trick is there is NO rational basis to transition.  But the feeling of wanting to never goes away.  So you have to rationally discuss an irrational compulsion.  But it can be done!

The Home for Untransitioned Transsexuals idea I got from an editorial on the abortion debate.  It described how up until the '50s girls who got pregnant out of wedlock had to go 'stay with relatives' for about 9 months and then, after birthing and giving the child up for adoption, never to see it again, had to return to their previous lives (if they could, if the secret stayed secret, if their parents didn't throw them out as 'whores',) and live the rest of their lives with that chunk torn out of their being.  But the idea of going through the bumpy middle part of transition out of sight of the malevolent-curious is quite appealing!

Karen (Haz)