Hi everyone, I've got a small dilemma and I thought I'd ask for your input on this.

So for background, I'm MtF, and I've been on hormones for eight and a half months. On Sunday I ran a 10k and did pretty well. This was my first time ever running in an event although I have been running for exercise for the past year or so.

After the race there is an awards ceremony for everyone who places in the top third for their age and sex divisions. I was enrolled as a woman because, well, I am one, but also because I'm legally a woman and anyways I wouldn't sign up for it in the first place if it meant entering as a male. I think I was going to get a medal for my division (I came in second for women aged 30-39), but I felt self-conscious and didn't stick around for the ceremony.

I don't really think I have an advantage over the other women because, one, I wasn't much of a runner before I started hormones, two, I noticed an initial drop in performance when I did start hormones, and three, I've improved my times since then so I think that whatever muscle I managed to build for running I did it on estrogen.

But, I don't know. Maybe I do have an unfair advantage. Do you think I should hold off on races until I've been on hormones longer? Maybe I should just let them know I don't want to be 'placed' if that's an option?

I am totally sympathetic to any woman who sees me running and thinks I shouldn't be. I know I look big and muscular. And I know, after being on estrogen for a while, what it's like to feel physically outclassed by guys and how unfair it feels (seriously, I went from being able to do ~50 full pushups to more like 25 knee pushups ).

Well, what do you think I should do? I want to keep running; it's been really good for me. And I want to keep signing up for these races, because they are great for motivation and very enjoyable. I just don't want to potentially open myself up to harassment or to upset anyone; I really don't care much about placing.

Here's a picture of me on race day:

You can check with the race if you're unsure. Most of the bigger ones just do it based on whatever your ID says. I'm also a marathon runner, and my times have become horrible since starting HRT.

If the race's rules say you go with your ID then you're competing according to the rules.

Not sure if you're asking a rules-based or a philosophical question here.  For the rules, you'll need check with the competition on what their rules are.  Sounds like you probably followed their requirements.  I've seen all manner of different requirements.  Cross-fit recently released what I feel are probably the most fair set of guidelines for 2019 competitions.

That brings us to the philosophical question. Given that you've been on hormones for 8 months and it sounds like the bulk of your training was performed after you started, the advantage you'd have from previous Testosterone based muscle growth would be limited.  Assuming your T levels dropped as expected on hormones, you are probably already experiencing some atrophy from that as well.  So as far as I'm concerned, yes it was fair for you to compete in the women's division.

This will be unpopular, for the umteenth time probably.
I think that it is not the right thing to do. Muscle drop in eight months may happen but not to the degree where you might be on par with an average woman your age. They worked really hard to get to where they are at, and I am sure that you have too, but your bone and muscle structure was made for this. Women very often are amazing at long distance running, even in that though there is a reason that men and women compete separately.
I admire you for pushing yourself, please don't stop, you should be out there. I don't have answers, this is a hugely muddled subject and there may not be an answer that works for everyone. What I can say is that you have the opportunity to NOT make a negative impression.

I am also a huge fan of the way that you feel about it. Please don't stop but yeah, maybe make it clear that you are running for you and not trying to take anything away from anyone else. For now anyway.

I see so much of,"We should be able to do what we want." I am in limited agreement with that sentiment. We are just barely coming into our own and we are so far in the minority that we can barely see the marginalized minority from where we are at. We can not get to where we want to be without the goodwill of others. Ever been to the ocean as a child? Hit by a wave that that has you tumbling over and over, unable break free, unable to breathe? You get up after the wave finally lets you go and sand and snot is coming out of your nose, you are coughing up sand and saltwater and you have what feels like a dump truck full of sand in your butt crack and trunks? Of course as soon as you can breathe again you march right back in.    We are that child and the rest of the world is that wave. We can accept the power that the wave has over us and treat it accordingly and wait until we are bigger, or we can walk into it over and over until one time the wave is too long, too strong and we don't make it back up.

I don't know, that was a stupid analogy but hopefully you get what I mean.

Most sports don't have their own rules regarding transgender athletes. Often they will rely on IOC (International Olympic Committee) rules. I believe their previous rule was 2 years of hormones and surgery required. Most recently I have heard that rule was changed to 1 year and no surgery requirement. The stipulation is that you need documentation of suppressed testosterone levels (within female range) for that one year.

With that in mind it also depends on what kind of races/events these are. Is there prize money involved? Is it a qualifying race/event for something bigger? (I know PGA/LPGA works like this.) I've heard the term "Fun Run" used before. If it's something like that if say you're fine.

I've been waiting until I hit the 2 year mark to get back into playing softball. That means I'm good for spring season! I just had an orchiectomy so I think I'm pretty well covered there.

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StacyRenee is correct.

In November 2015 the International Olympic Committee had a meeting where they changed the policy to adapt to current scientific, social and legal attitudes on transgender issues.

Now, surgery will no longer be required, with female-to-male transgender athletes eligible to take part in men's competitions "without restriction".

Meanwhile, male-to-female transgender athletes will need to demonstrate that their testosterone level has been below a certain cutoff point for at least one year before their first competition. Under the new rules, an athlete transitioning to a woman must undergo hormone therapy and demonstrate that the total level of male testosterone in the blood has been below 10 nmol/L for at least a year prior to competing.

There is some talk of more recent changes, but I can not find anything definitive at this time.

Yes, two years is right.

My times dropped because of HRT after two years.  Mostly muscle loss.

I'm now in the average range for a 45 year old female.  9:30 to 12:00 a mile depending on course and weather.

I run cross country 5k's.

My times have dropped even more since I moved to Colorado!  OMG I can't breath!

My take for what it's worth. I no longer compete due to injuries years ago. If it's a non qualifying event. Qualifier for Boston, marine corps, ny marathon etc. you be you. If it is a qualifier. Make sure you adhere to IOC standards or sanctioning body race rules. Disqualified afterwards would be a bad thing. if it's just for you,  one could always simply exit near end without finishing.

I am surprised at my opinion on this one.  My opinions usually skew toward ( we are equal to cis women type of stuff)
I am legally female and in addition to restrooms I use the women's locker room at work.  In short I don't want to be a second class citizen.

But on this one.... uh...  hate saying it but I think we have an inherent physical advantage.  Are there cis women that can kick our butts? - of course. Rhonda Rousey would take my head off.  Michelle Wie could beat me at golf by 30 strokes.

But our bodies have an inherent advantage - before training.  We are getting a leg up before the training starts.

I have been on HRT for 2 1/2 years.  I guarantee that I am stronger than most women.  I don't want to be I just am.
I am 6'2".  Not too happy about that either but I haven't shrunk and my muscle mass is at least 80 percent of what it was.

OK so for my opinion.  I think you should go with the option of run but ask not to place.  I am sure other women that are running ( some of them ) take placing very seriously and are competitive.

I know this is contrary to most of my opinions - just being honest with my opinion.

I dunno....first event, six miles, you came in second..... sounds like you had an advantage to me. If you followed the rules, then fine, but being on HRT for such a short time, and maybe not at full dose/normal female levels yet..... maybe you should have disclosed your status?

Male distance running pace is 10-11% faster than female, due to build,  size, muscle mass,  blood oxygenation and other factors. At 8 months on HRT (guessing this is ramping up?),  then it's likely the OP still had quite some advantage.
In the UK for Triathlons,  the requirements by the governing body is that you must have HRT levels in the female range for at least 6 months prior to the event for your position to be valid.
When I've competed, I've always competed as a female entrant,  even before starting HRT; BUT I've communicated with the event organisers,  explained my sittutation, and they have DQ'd my result, so it does not unfairly impact other professional competitors. I'm fully happy with this, fair competition is best for everyone. [emoji3526]

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As a tennis player, I'll chime in with another comparable policy. For USTA tournament and league play, the policy is that you have to be on hormones for 12 months to compete in women divisions. I think that's a fair policy for rated, competitive recreational tennis. The good thing about tennis is that you usually play within a rating level, so by definition you're playing with similarly skilled people, hormones or not.

Several years ago I developed a test with an Australian Government Grant to detect a form of performance enhancement used by endurance athletes. In particular cyclists and marathon athletes.  The test was detect if a person had received a blood transfusion prior to the event. The original test was simplistic as you can easily tell if a person had had a transfusion based on blood group disparity using minor blood antigens. The difficulty is with those people who store their own blood and have it retransfused prior to an event. This gives a double plus. Donating the blood (it is usually a lot) stimulates the marrow to produce more and then giving the red blood cells back provide a substantial oxygen carrying advantage. For a high class athlete the advantages are very substantial. The risks, which are as substantial are ignored - the dead are buried - 'a cyclist was found dead after sleeping during the Olympic Games' - I'll give you a good guess why. Heart failure from too high a haematocrit. They had transfusions.

During the study I had access too and advice from sports trainers and officials. I asked about hormones and yes Testosterone and derivatives were and are of an enormous concern. But they are so easily detected. I asked about the levels that are important and there were rules but no one was too concerned. The differences between male and female levels are considerable and to get benefit you have to be in the male range. For men ages 19 and up, normal testosterone levels range from 240 to 950 nanograms per deciliter (ng/dL). For women ages 19 and up, normal testosterone levels range from 8 to 60 ng/dL. Men have about 20 times the amount of T.

If you are in the male range you have an advantage  - a clear one.
However the advantage drops rapidly as T levels drop.

What though of body build, musculature and weight bearing?

The XX pelvis and the XY pelvis are anatomically different. While most people would not notice a difference. In competitive weight lifting I suggest that those with a closed pelvis bone structure have an anatomically engineering advantage in lifting and carrying heavy loads.

Length of bone bone etc. We know from obvious evidence that tall people have advantage in some sports and small people an advantage in others. We also know that body weight and overall musculature is an advantage.

How do we cope?

I think if a transgender person is hormonally transitioned before puberty then they compete as their identified gender at an International level. If not - then we need to be very careful. I would argue that for the good of all that we withdraw. However I am known for my altruism.

If you are a casual athlete (non-competitive) who cares! Enjoy yourself and be seen and proud.

Back however to the test.
One thing that came out clearly was that the level of 'cheating' was massive. Indeed it could be argued that the person not cheating was the odd one out. I'm not sure if the competitors knew any more.

Thanks everyone who responded. I can see that the general consensus is that it isn't fair for me to run yet and that the normal waiting time is considered one year on hormones. (so... July, if we're talking one year of levels in the female range)

To clarify for some of the people asking: this event is mostly just for fun; it's not some cash prize event or a qualifier for something serious. The women who had faster times than me were much faster as well; the overall ranking for the 10k portion had a guy in first with something like 37 minutes followed by two women with just over 40 minute times, and meanwhile my time was 50 minutes 33 seconds. To be clear, I didn't come in second place among the women runners, I was fifth among all women and second in my age group (of which I was easily the youngest as well, there are other advantages besides sex...).

Quote from: Devlyn on January 18, 2019, 03:01:37 AM
I dunno....first event, six miles, you came in second..... sounds like you had an advantage to me. If you followed the rules, then fine, but being on HRT for such a short time, and maybe not at full dose/normal female levels yet..... maybe you should have disclosed your status?

Thanks Devlyn, I don't like hearing things like this, but you could be right. I do consistently outrun other women and even though I work REALLY hard (trying to outrun my demons lol) I doubt that I would run just as fast if I was AFAB.

I want to see myself as a woman, but physical reality makes this hard sometimes. Since it seems I probably have an unfair advantage I think I'll just stop running for a while. I really just want to fit in

Edit: I noticed some people asking about whether my testosterone levels were in the female range. I wasn't even aware this was a thing? Like, why would you not start with the correct levels from the very beginning? My endocrinologist started me on the same dosages that she has me on now and at our three month followup (almost six months ago) she stated that my levels were in the female range (I asked her if we could remove all testosterone and she said that would be unhealthy lol).

I follow the IOC rules. My T level is in female range for over 18 months now, so when I started doing 5k's I did sign up as women. Of course, always being in the last 15% does not raise any questions

I think you still do have an advantage with only 8 months under your skirt on HRT. You still do have the right to run though and since you're female you checked the right box.

IMHO you did the wise thing in not going up for the award ceremony.  Shortly your levels will be in line with the other female competitors and you would then have the right to accept any awards you earned.

I thinking even after 10 years on hormones someone who was born male in any strength based sport will have a massive advantage

I think trans women will have a slight advantage with bone density and size. Until hrt overtime decreases full body bone density, weight and size, then there's always a disadvantage for a cis women competing against trans women. Still, you should compete, but I don't the results are fair at all at just 8 months on hrt. In a few years on hrt with supressed testosterone, I think you may find wherever you place as a contestant to be more rewarding with your advantage continuing to decrease in some ways.

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I think if you're asking the question you probably already know the answer in your heart.

For me it wouldn't feel right so I'd run for a charity or good cause. Just as rewarding, and still a good motivator for training.

Peace and love and all that good stuff,

Sadie

Quote from: Shy on January 18, 2019, 12:18:43 PM
I think if you're asking the question you probably already know the answer in your heart.

For me it wouldn't feel right so I'd run for a charity or good cause. Just as rewarding, and still a good motivator for training.

Peace and love and all that good stuff,

Sadie

This is a useless and frankly judgemental response. Did I already "know the answer in my heart"? Because of hindsight bias I could easily be led to believe that any of many possible responses were what I believed before I even asked the question!

I clearly didn't know the answer to the question, that's why I asked. Your supercilious response is completely uncalled for.