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Cause of Transgender Condition

Started by Jennifer300, February 27, 2019, 07:19:09 PM

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Jennifer300

I am going to start working on my coming out letters to friends and family.  I believe if they realize it is a rare condition with a known cause it would be easier to understand and accept than believing it is a lifestyle choice.  We all know it is something we are born with, but data to back it up would go a long way in convincing those you want to understand and accept you as you were born.

   That said, I have been looking for causes and came across an article of interest.  I know it is a couple years old, but it sounded logical.  Anyone with any newer data on the topic please post.   

According to the article:

Sexual anatomy happens first, in the first six weeks of development. But once anatomy is settled, there's a big time lag—until about six months gestation—before the brain masculinizes or feminizes. At that point, if exposed to a testosterone surge, a fetal brain's nerve cells develop in a male direction—a male gender identity. In the absence of such a surge, the brain develops in a female direction—female gender identity.



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Charmed

#2
Quote from: Jennifer300 on February 27, 2019, 07:19:09 PM
I am going to start working on my coming out letters to friends and family.  I believe if they realize it is a rare condition with a known cause it would be easier to understand and accept than believing it is a lifestyle choice.  We all know it is something we are born with, but data to back it up would go a long way in convincing those you want to understand and accept you as you were born.

   That said, I have been looking for causes and came across an article of interest.  I know it is a couple years old, but it sounded logical.  Anyone with any newer data on the topic please post. 

According to the article:

Sexual anatomy happens first, in the first six weeks of development. But once anatomy is settled, there's a big time lag—until about six months gestation—before the brain masculinizes or feminizes. At that point, if exposed to a testosterone surge, a fetal brain's nerve cells develop in a male direction—a male gender identity. In the absence of such a surge, the brain develops in a female direction—female gender identity.

Since I'm new here I don't believe I can link peer reviewed journals yet. I can message you a ungodly amount of real scientific research from the 1940's until present as well as the ongoing research. There are many articles on possible reasons for the innate feeling of gender being opposed to ones natal sex or sex chromosomes.

Let me know if that would help.


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pamelatransuk

Hello again Jennifer

This subject comes up very often here just as we would expect and I copy a quote from Hugh_E dated November 24th 2018 which he stated on the "I am Female so why is my Body Male" thread.

I am truly grateful for you raising this subject again and I find your linked article most informative and similar to the quote from Hugh_E.

QUOTE FROM HUGH_E

It goes back to before you were even born.

There's a popular misconception that the sex you develop as is determined by X and Y chromosomes. In fact, all being XX or XY does is determine whether you develop ovaries or testicles, everything from that point forward is driven by hormones. More specifically, in the presence of testicular hormones, a foetus develops as male. In the absence of those hormones, it develops as female instead (ovarian hormones aren't actually necessary for female development to occur, female development is what always happens if there are no testicular hormones present). This is easily demonstrated by a condition called Swyer's syndrome, in which the testicles of a genetically male (XY) foetus fail to develop. People with the condition look female at birth, and they grow up to look and behave just like ordinary women. Often, the condition isn't even spotted until, as teenagers, they fail to start menstruating.

The genitals undergo their development from week 7 to week 12 after conception, so by the end of week 12, you already have male or female genitals, something which can no longer change (unless you have GRS later in life of course!). The brain is different though. The early stages of brain development involve very rapid cell division (to produce the enormous numbers of cells that will ultimately make up the brain), and the migration of those cells to where their final place in the brain will be (which is often far distant from where they formed). Those early steps don't appear to have any major sex differences, so hormones during that part of brain development don't make any difference to the eventual sex of the brain.

By about week 16, the very first cells have reached their final position in the brain. Once in position, they start to grow the nerve axons that will permanently connect them to the other brain cells they're supposed to be interacting with. More and more cells reach their final position and begin to grow their permanent connections to other cells, and by week 21, the cell migration stage of brain development is over, and the main task (ongoing for the remainder of prenatal development) is the growth of nerve axons and dendrites (the "wires" that connect up brain cells), and synaptogenesis, or creating the junctions between those wires. During that time, a process of programmed cell death takes place as well, in which brain cells surplus to requirements are removed. This also appears to be the time when hormones have the biggest impact in determining the sex of your brain, so I'm guessing that there's a male way and a female way of connecting up brain tissue, which are subtly different at the microscopic level. It may be that different cells are removed during the programmed cell death stage if high levels of testosterone are present (testosterone is the main testicular hormone that drives male development), than if there's little or no testosterone there.

So, what appears to make people MTF transgender is that their testicles developed as normal and, to begin with, were producing enough testosterone for male genital development to occur. However, things then went south, and their testosterone production slowed or stopped altogether, so that during the crucial week 16 to birth period for determining whether the brain gets wired up along male or female lines, there wasn't enough testosterone present for the brain to be wired up as male. Instead, it got the patterning that happens by default, the female kind.

As to what can cause testosterone production to go wrong, any of the conventional genetic causes of intersex can. However, so can environmental factors, for instance exposure to external estrogens. Unfortunately, doctors didn't realise this, and for several decades during the mid 20th century, they were giving pregnant women high doses of an artificial estrogen called DES, a drug which acts as a chemical castration agent in men. Many of us in the older age bracket either know or suspect we were exposed to that drug. My own view is that the effect probably isn't limited to just estrogens though, and any hormones or other drugs that interfere with testosterone production in adult men will, if they're administered during pregnancy, run the risk of producing MTF transgender babies. This is a hugely controversial thing to say of course, because an awful lot of hormones and other drugs used in medicine do interfere with testosterone production!

Anyway, hopefully that answers your question. You actually are the person you perceive yourself to be, someone whose body developed along male lines, but whose brain developed along female lines instead."

Quite naturally (pun intended as it is nature and NOT nurture) we all seek scientific evidence.

I wish you every success in explaining when coming out.

Hugs

Pamela 


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Monica

I'm worried that we're generalizing too much. Anecdotally, I want to say that I feel like certain types of trauma, especially in childhood, can play a role in it too. Especially just before puberty. That would jive with my experience. I know it's not a popular viewpoint, but it makes sense to me.
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Alice (nym)

Quote from: Monica on February 28, 2019, 07:57:26 AM
I'm worried that we're generalizing too much. Anecdotally, I want to say that I feel like certain types of trauma, especially in childhood, can play a role in it too. Especially just before puberty. That would jive with my experience. I know it's not a popular viewpoint, but it makes sense to me.

I think we all have different experiences. Other than the need to suppress my dysphoria and keep it hidden from everyone, I had no traumatic experiences as a young child. My very earliest memory of dysphoria was when I was 2 years old. Perhaps the birth of my sister was traumatic for me?  I doubt that was the cause though because I remember clearly when I first felt the way I do and it was in playgroup and my sister was nowhere in sight. But that is my experience and I appreciate that other people will have had different experiences that they may or may not associate with how they feel.

The brain theory is not perfect but there is enough scientific evidence there that has been verified through different people doing the same experiments to provide an argument and a bit of support to the people we come out to. Most people will accept that explanation unless they are TERFs and really have it in for us. I see it merely as a cushion for people who are seeking an explanation as to why we are doing what we are doing. Something that makes sense to them and allows them to accept who we are.
Don't hate the hate... Start spreading the love.
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Monica

You're probably right. But I'm still puzzling over why there needs to be any kind of explanation at all. People who are asking us for answers here are not generally the most open minded or accepting.
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Colleen_definitely

Mostly because there are weirdos like myself who are curious as to why I ended up in this mess.
As our ashes turn to dust, we shine like stars...
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zamber74

Quote from: Monica on February 28, 2019, 09:02:11 AM
You're probably right. But I'm still puzzling over why there needs to be any kind of explanation at all. People who are asking us for answers here are not generally the most open minded or accepting.

Honestly, I for one would feel a tremendous amount of relief if I knew the root cause for why I am so different.  I shouldn't, I should just embrace myself, but at the same time that is just not how my mind works, I am fully aware of just how faulty I can be in my reasoning, and confidence has never been a strong point of mine. 

So, when people make arguments based upon their twisted and warped sense of morality and ethics, I can just brush them aside without it having that much of an impact on my psyche.  I find it hard to dismiss people entirely, without evidence, I often use others experience to proceed in life and when so many people are saying pretty nasty things about me, it does have an impact and their words float around in my mind and I don't have the tools necessary to combat them with.  Instead I am left dwelling, and wondering if they in some part are right, and I am just a horrible person.

As it stands now, it is just my sense of morality vs theirs.. and that usually is what it all comes down to these anti trans people, morality.  They love to use shame, guilt, whatever they can to strike at us, and all I have in return is my own sense of morality against them, if I could give them evidence and say "Hey, look, there is a reason for me being this way, and what you are doing is absolutely hateful"  I would feel a lot more comfortable in my skin and my own reasoning.  It would be much easier to brush their hate aside and move on in life.

All I can say now is "Hey, this is the way I feel, I can't really explain why I am feeling this way, but the things you say and do are incredibly hurtful"  In which case, they can just laugh and torment me further.  Of course, they can then proceed to tell me how lousy of a person I am for feeling the way I do.

So it is not necessarily about convincing them that they are wrong, it is about assigning less value to what they do say. 
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krobinson103

Quote from: Monica on February 28, 2019, 07:57:26 AM
I'm worried that we're generalizing too much. Anecdotally, I want to say that I feel like certain types of trauma, especially in childhood, can play a role in it too. Especially just before puberty. That would jive with my experience. I know it's not a popular viewpoint, but it makes sense to me.

The biggest trauma in my life was living a life that based on an assumption (I am male) that was incorrect. It fundamentally made a mess of most of my life until I accepted that truth and transitioned.
Every day is a totally awesome day
Every day provides opportunities and challenges
Every challenge leads to an opportunity
Every fear faced leads to one more strength
Every strength leads to greater success
Success leads to self esteem
Self Esteem leads to happiness.
Cherish every day.
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Monica

Quote from: krobinson103 on February 28, 2019, 12:56:54 PM
The biggest trauma in my life was living a life that based on an assumption (I am male) that was incorrect. It fundamentally made a mess of most of my life until I accepted that truth and transitioned.

Honestly, I don't think that one should be understated. Trying to convincingly fake masculinity is difficult, and painful. It eats at you, and you hate yourself for doing it at the end of the day. You're absolutely right.
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Jennifer300

Quote from: Monica on February 28, 2019, 09:02:11 AM
You're probably right. But I'm still puzzling over why there needs to be any kind of explanation at all. People who are asking us for answers here are not generally the most open minded or accepting.

My search for a valid explanation is so friends or family I want to accept me will have a scientific reason to disregard religious teachings.  I have a few preachers in the family and we grew up conservative in the church.  I know they don't follow the bible as they understand it either, but if I want my Dad to accept me I need a medical explanation so his brother the preacher doesn't try to convince him I am bound for hell and they need to get me to understand it is wrong etc.  I like the explanation of the brain developing after sex develops because it is easy to understand and shows it is not a choice.  A simple lack of hormones during a period after sex is determined and snap, you have a woman's brain.   Then explaining the "options" becomes a bit easier.  If they truly love you, telling them you are so much happier after transition began way may help win them over too.
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HappyMoni

I have this scenario I run in my head where a bunch of the religious folks who don't accept trans people are brought into a nursery full of babies. Through some unknown method, we could tell which babies would grow up trans or gay or whatever. I would love to ask them what we should do. Should we dispose of them, shun them, give them a lobotomy? Not so easy when you take out the blame aspect and deal with cute little, innocent babies.

(It is not lost on me that for some intersex people, this is sadly something similar to what they have faced with the horrible gender surgeries done before knowing the person's actual gender.)
If I ever offend you, let me know. It's not what I am about.
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]
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anne_indy

Dear Jennifer - I think that, even for ourselves, that if we (or at least I) can come to terms with a why for this it would make it an easier pill to swallow. I spent years trying to find a psychological or spiritual explanation for it that would enable me to either discard my dysphoria or make it easier to live with it, knowing  that there was an explicit cause. No success there. A possible cause is that I am from the generation when DES was commonly used during pregnancy, but I have no evidence whether my mother received DES or not. I think there are many possible factors as indicated above. I have to come to terms with the fact that the dysphoria is what I have been given and I have to decide on the best path to resolve it for my life. Even if you can provide a solid biological basis for your ->-bleeped-<-, and the evidence is mounting, whether those with strong religious-driven biases will accept the science is up for grabs. We seem to be in an era of irrationality when people stubbornly hold onto their ideas whether arguable or not. It is worth the effort to provide the best scientific evidence you can. But don't be surprised if those explanations are not warmly received.


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Jessica

Jennifer, here are the links that you refer to in your OP.

You can listen to the audio interview here.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-are-some-people-transgender/

It links you to the full article you can read here.

https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/health-fitness/mental-health/why-are-some-people-transgender


Hugs, Jessica
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Jessica


"If you go out looking for friends, you are going to find they are very scarce.  If you go out to be a friend, you'll find them everywhere."


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pamelatransuk

#16
Quote from: Jennifer300 on February 28, 2019, 05:05:47 PM
My search for a valid explanation is so friends or family I want to accept me will have a scientific reason to disregard religious teachings. 

I like the explanation of the brain developing after sex develops because it is easy to understand and shows it is not a choice.  A simple lack of hormones during a period after sex is determined and snap, you have a woman's brain.   Then explaining the "options" becomes a bit easier.  If they truly love you, telling them you are so much happier after transition began way may help win them over too.

Thank you so much Jennifer. You may have realized that the different timing of physical gender and brain gender satisfies me and I use such for family and friends.

It makes me feel better to know the probable cause whereas previously I just had to think "something went wrong" but with no details.

I think also we need to correct the misconception that some people have that what we are doing is a change of lifestyle. It most certainly is not and we are only taking action to correct something that bothers us constantly.

Finally I agree that if they are not moved by our explanation, then they may still be moved either after we tell them we are happy in transition or they may see themselves over time that we are happy.

Hugs

Pamela


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pamelatransuk

Quote from: anne_indy on February 28, 2019, 07:02:18 PM
Even if you can provide a solid biological basis for your ->-bleeped-<-, and the evidence is mounting, whether those with strong religious-driven biases will accept the science is up for grabs. We seem to be in an era of irrationality when people stubbornly hold onto their ideas whether arguable or not. It is worth the effort to provide the best scientific evidence you can. But don't be surprised if those explanations are not warmly received.

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Yes Anne sadly I have to agree that the real hardliners will cling to their religious beliefs and ignore any scientific theory or even evidence. Some are so stubborn as you say and some simply cannot change their thinking on anything.

Hugs

Pamela


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Linde

Quote from: HappyMoni on February 28, 2019, 05:36:09 PM


(It is not lost on me that for some intersex people, this is sadly something similar to what they have faced with the horrible gender surgeries done before knowing the person's actual gender.)
It is indeed!  And I tried to brush it away and try to eliminate it form my brain, but growing up looking different than my peers was nothing I could brush away! Finally,  I am now in the process of reversing this that was done to me!
02/22/2019 bi-lateral orchiectomy






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KathyLauren

Quote from: pamelatransuk on March 01, 2019, 05:39:04 AM
I think also we need to correct the misconception that some people have that what we are doing is a change of lifestyle. It most certainly is not and we are only taking action to correct something that bothers us constantly.

A well-meaning variation of this misconception is when cis people (and even some trans people) are vocal about supporting our "choice" to be trans.  We may or may not choose to transition, but being trans is not a choice.  It is a birth defect.
2015-07-04 Awakening; 2015-11-15 Out to self; 2016-06-22 Out to wife; 2016-10-27 First time presenting in public; 2017-01-20 Started HRT!!; 2017-04-20 Out publicly; 2017-07-10 Legal name change; 2019-02-15 Approval for GRS; 2019-08-02 Official gender change; 2020-03-11 GRS; 2020-09-17 New birth certificate
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