As I was reading back threads about my surgeon in Thailand I came across an interesting comment by @warlockmaker

"There's full acceptance. No one cares in Bangkok. It's a gender fluid community. I get hit on in clubs by both men and women."

Relating this to something @TanyaG said, you can have all the legislation in place in a country, but that doesn't necessarily mean the people will take you in their stride. You might still get stared at and be, essentially, different. In Thailand in general, and certainly in Bangkok, you will be rubbing bosoms with every shade of gender expression and no one bats an eyelid.

Legislation and Attitudes are not necessarily in sync.

I do think the UK is more hostile now, but that's mainly amongst 50+ yr olds and generally men.

xx

p.s. Having had dinner with @warlockmaker I can attest to her being beautiful. This isn't, or shouldn't, be about looks of course but there's also a tradition in Thailand of women making a bit of an effort with their appearance. Even to the point that they will often put on makeup before working out! And generally if you dress female then that's how you will be treated: as a woman, regardless of whether you look like Jodie Comer or Mrs Shrek.

Those of you who follow sport may be aware that there's a massive row going on during this year's French Open. Basically the organisers keep scheduling men to play in the prime-time evening slot. Not a single women's match. This is despite the fact that a game like today's Rybakina vs Swiatek could be a cracker.

https://www.skysports.com/tennis/news/12110/13377476/french-open-jessica-pegula-criticises-schedule-as-players-hit-out-at-lack-of-womens-night-matches

And this isn't new. It has been like this for some years. I do love France but this is very typical.

It's a little reminder, that you can have all the protection in place at a legal level masking massive prejudice at a practical one.

When I started this thread with the header 'Which Countries are Safe ...?' I hadn't expected this nuance to emerge but I think it's important. Which counts for more? A legally protective country, or one in which people are friendly, chilled, and open? Ideally both of course.

Prejudices can be deeply ingrained and eventually the politicians may even roll back legislation in order to look after their votes at the ballot box: look at the UK as a case in point.


@TanyaG

Quote from: Tills on June 01, 2025, 12:05:08 AMWhen I started this thread with the header 'Which Countries are Safe ...?' I hadn't expected this nuance to emerge but I think it's important. Which counts for more? A legally protective country, or one in which people are friendly, chilled, and open? Ideally both of course.

I had a French girlfriend who was schooled in Britain because her parents didn't want her to absorb the values their own culture had toward women. To paraphrase how she put it, French women must express themselves through gender, because so many other options are closed to them, thanks to France being such a conservative society. The further south you go in France the worse it gets and she was born in the Camargue.

You're right that many countries appear tolerant if you read their laws, but the reality may be very different in terms of lived experience. Pakistan is the perfect case, because as far as trans rights are concerned, they have all the laws in place the international courts require, but it's just window dressing. Zero effort is made to implement them. France, Spain and Italy all have laws in place to protect women's rights, but attitudinally the three countries are twenty years behind Britain, as recent court cases have shown.

Which is not to say that in deeply conservative countries you can't find pockets of liberalism. Germany is very conservative, Berlin is very liberal; Spain is super conservative, Barcelona is not; Montana is MAGA but Bozeman is the reverse; Italy is borderline Fascist but Firenze is liberal; France you've already highlighted. University cities tend to be liberal regardles of the culture of the area surrounding them in my experience.

So I've always taken charts and scoring systems for LGBTQ friendliness with a pinch of salt, because a nation's laws may only be there because politicians needed to pass them to tick a box and get something else. The lived experience may be very different and ultimately it is attitudes (which can't be legislated) that determine tolerance. So for my money, it's more useful knowing that the people in a particular town or city are trans tolerant than anything else. Which makes the communication of experience of people here more valuable than anything else.

You've made really excellent points on this subject @TanyaG I was initially resistant but you have highlighted something so important. It is easy to think the grass is greener, without understanding the nuances involved in a country, or within countries as, again, you've just highlighted.

The Chevron Championship April 24-27
NBC, GOLF Channel, Peacock

U.S. Women's Open presented by Ally May 29 – June 1
NBC, USA Network, Peacock

NBC is now broadcasting women's golf in the Prime Time slot for men's golf!  Previously it was only available via paid subscriptions. This is good because most men need to see how professional women play golf as that is as good as they can possibly play.  The men are too good and only an elite few can do what they do.

This is such a useful thread, thank you for starting it! If people can share their lived experience of particular places here, others will be able to make a judgment based on them and everyone will benefit!

A discussion over here https://www.susans.org/index.php/topic,251259

is actually making me less likely to settle in Thailand.

This is what I've mentioned previously and which concerns me. Yes, there's a very chilled-out vibe towards LGBTQ+ in Thailand. But you don't have the same legal protections in place as, say, Ireland and crucially for me you're not necessarily treated as a woman. I don't want to be misgendered as 'third gender.' I'm a woman. And that's the protection I'd get in Ireland.

So I'm off to Thailand next week for a consultation with my surgeon. I'll probably be out there for just a week and then I'll head to Ireland. It will be good to make a side-by-side comparison with both still fresh.

xx

Quote from: Tills on June 06, 2025, 12:05:12 AMBut you don't have the same legal protections in place as, say, Ireland and crucially for me you're not necessarily treated as a woman. I don't want to be misgendered as 'third gender.'

Factors like this will always finesse people's decisions because we are all so different and what makes a country perfect for one of us will be a poor fit for someone else. But the strength of this thread is that by highlighting which countries work for some of us and why, others will be able to make informed decisions and I think that's win-win. So power to you.

Well ... here I am. But where?

Up until a week ago I was all set to fly to Thailand. Flights, hotels, and transfers were all booked. And I was due for a consultation with Dr Sutin this Thursday.

But some sort of flu/covid lurgy struck and there was no way a long haul flight would have been advisable.

Anyway, I managed to recoup nearly all of my booking costs and I've re-scheduled my Emirates flight to the autumn for a modest fee.

So I decided instead to take a short flight over to Ireland and spend a week or two looking around, as this was the other country on my radar.

So, yes, I am in Ireland! I flew into the West of Ireland airport near Knock.

First impressions are:

1. The people are incredibly friendly. You can instantly see coming from the UK that attitudes are very different. So much more chilled and accepting of all myriads of people. It's evident that it is protective of trans rights. And that's not just about attitudes. It is enshrined in law: an important point that others on this forum have stressed.

2. It's so GREEN!! It's not called The Emerald Isle for nothing.

@Devlyn is right: it would be sooooooooooo easy for someone from the UK to come and live here. And, my, the countryside is beautiful. You can get really cheap properties if you are happy to live rurally.

I'm slightly wary of heading down the line which says that this lurgy descended on me in order to switch the points and divert me from Thailand to Ireland.

And yet ...

xx

Ireland is fabulous!

Quote from: Tills on Today at 07:32:18 AMIreland is fabulous!

Nice, thanks for the feedback, Tills! 💓🌷


~ Lilis 🫂

I know Cork and the west best, having made many visits over the years. I love Ireland too, most people are fun and reasonably tolerant, but like anywhere it has its moments and being so rural and religious there are some remarkably conservative people there too. In the cities it helps  the population tends to be young and there's music everywhere which always seems to help make folk more empathic.

Ireland is the only place in the world where it takes longer to pour a pint of beer than it does to prepare a meal. It positively encourages eccentricity which is possibly why it's relatively trans friendly? For instance, you can still find roads where the distances are in miles and the speed limits are in km, and I know of at least one village where the name is spelled different ways on the signs at either end. There's endless fun to be had.

But, it's also the place where we had a picnic on an island in the middle of one of the lakes and found an angler who was clearly trying to avoid us. In the end we asked him over and found him curiously reluctant to say what he did. In a flash, my friend intuited what the problem was and said, 'Don't worry, if you're PSNI, we'll bring you no harm.' The angler looked like a weight had been lifted from his shoulders and we had lunch together.

Afterward my friend, who'd lived in Eire for many years, said, 'I was born in the North and he'll have placed me the instant I opened my mouth. There'll have been times in that man's life when his next heartbeat will have depended on getting it right. Welcome to our splintered land and it's inability to leave its past where it belongs.'

By and large it's possible to steer clear of the more conservative folk though and in rural communities they usually announce themselves. With so many young Irish people having worked in the UK there's a bond we broke by leaving the EU but the place has a lot to recommend it.

One last thing. If it's raining, it's a 'soft day'. If it's bucketing down, it's a 'grand soft day', and if there's a monsoon, it's 'a grand soft day, thank god'. They don't call it the Emerald Isle for nothing!

One other thing. Do not EVER ask for a glass of whisky in a private household in Eire. You are quite likely to get exactly that, a glass full of whisky. I've had it happen to me three times now and it's much more likely to happen the further south you go, the point of no return apparentely being a line level with Cashel

Quote from: TanyaG on Today at 01:46:21 PMOne other thing. Do not EVER ask for a glass of whisky in a private household in Eire. You are quite likely to get exactly that, a glass full of whisky. I've had it happen to me three times now and it's much more likely to happen the further south you go, the point of no return apparentely being a line level with Cashel

I don't drink alcohol and haven't for over six years so I shan't ...

When were you last in Ireland Tanya?

xx

For everyone looking at this thread, I'll write-up some reflections when I come to the end of this tour. For now, I merely wanted to announce how fabulous the country is 

xx

Quote from: Tills on Today at 02:31:40 PMWhen were you last in Ireland Tanya?

Just before Covid. We first visited forty years ago and there have been many changes, but it's kept its charm somehow!