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please I need your help.....

Started by corrine, April 30, 2006, 06:06:47 PM

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corrine

Hi I'm a student at University of Oregon in a Cultural History of the Breast class. Our class is missing any information on transgendered people and their breasts! So I have decided to do a presentation on how you all feel about your breasts. If you could please, give me some feedback on your attitudes beliefs or ideas about your breasts I would be so grateful. Thanks  :)
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Heather Rose

Hello Corrine,

Welcome to our forum, I know you have come to the right place, with your questions. As the comedian "Ron White" says, we have the right to remain silent but we don't have the ability. As for me I seem to revel in this weekness.

I am a M2F transsexual, and live as my inner self-identification 24/7. I am not on hormone therepy at this point but look forward to beginning, when I have jumped through enough hoops to satisfy the medical industrial complex that I am worthy of their assistance in becoming........Oh, alright I'll get off my soapbox.

I yern so much to experience the growth of my own breasts, much the same way, I imagine, that a young girl does. Same as she, I want to watch their developement and feel the sensations, weither pleasant or painful, during their growth because I know that they are a milestone in my quest for womanhood.

I do moarn the fact (not trying to sound melodramatic) that because of the biology of my birth, I will never be able to nurish a child, flesh of my flesh, with them but I do find solise knowing that there are born women with the same problem.

I hope that I have helped you.

Heather Rose       
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HelenW

Hi Corrine!

I'll assume that you're female from your name.  How do you feel about your breasts?

I suspect that many, if not most, transwomen probably have similar feelings.

Please enlighten us.

thnx
helen
FKA: Emelye

Pronouns: she/her

My rarely updated blog: http://emelyes-kitchen.blogspot.com

Southwestern New York trans support: http://www.southerntiertrans.org/
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michelle

As for breasts things just have not developed yet.
Be true to yourself.  The future will reveal itself in its own due time.    Find the calm at the heart of the storm.    I own my womanhood.

I am a 69-year-old transsexual school teacher grandma & lady.   Ethnically I am half Irish  and half Scandinavian.   I can be a real bitch or quite loving and caring.  I have never taken any hormones or had surgery, I am out 24/7/365.
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Annie Social

I have feelings on two different levels.

First, breasts are iconic of "femaleness"; they are the most visible evidence that one is female, and thus their development (or simulation!) is extremely important to my self-image and confidence. They are like a sign hung around the neck, saying "I am a woman". The pain of their growth is something I bear happily, knowing where it is leading.

On another level I'm like any adolescent girl, impatient with their growth and hoping they keep developing! I find myself massaging them in the evening, thinking that perhaps this will stimulate blood flow and make them grow faster. In the daytime, I find them a comforting reassurance that I really am who I am.

I hope some of the FTMs will respond (FTM = female to male); their answers should be significantly different!

Annie
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Kate Thomas

Hi Corrine
I must admit that I am not very qualified, as I am just a crossdresser, I can be a bit detached from the subjects.  ::)
I did want to point out that much has been said about the matter in past posts and threads. 
One of your best bets will be to use the search function near the top of the page to seek out such posts.

Good Luck
Kate Alice
"But who is that on the other side of you?"
T.S. Eliot
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Terri-Gene

Breasts,  don't ask for any deep explainantion of wanting them or of having them.  They are a natural item for a female person and so over almost 3 years i grew them while fighting doctors about the effects of estrogens on my body.  I have Hepititus C and the associated liver problems with that.

In November of 04 I had a stroke and my estrogen perscriptions were pulled.  After a lot of negotiation I agreed to having an orchiectomy and continuing estrogens on a lighter dose of estrogens, but was on constant warnings about it from my doctor.  I had a second stroke at the end of january 06 and it looks like I will not be taking hormones anymore,  This second stroke was a lot more sever then the first and I may not survive another one with all my functions intact.

What can i say ..... I have breasts and I'm happy with them.  There are no words in my vocabulary to discribe how or why I appreciate them the way I do, but I would not feel the same without them.  To the point of death twice for them, and it was worth the price paid.  Sorry, but I can't get more specific then that.

Terri
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Dennis

Annie's right about breasts being iconic of femaleness. I hated mine with a passion, even before I knew that I was trans. I never got any sensation from them other than discomfort (that isn't the case for all transguys; some have erotic sensation.) For me, they were always either numb or uncomfortable.

Chest surgery for me was an amazingly freeing experience. Before that, I'd constantly be reminded I had them, either by them bumping into something, or reaching around a corner and having them hit. Bleh.

Annie, you sound like I do about facial hair. The small amount I have now is more of a pain in the butt then anything - having to shave, but not being able to grow anything - but I impatiently await more and love the little scraggly things I have.

Dennis
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Annie Social

Dennis, I never thought about it, but you're right: facial hair is in some ways as much of a symbol of maleness as breasts are of femaleness. And the way you speak of chest surgery is exactly how I feel about my laser treatments; it's such a relief not to have to worry about stubble making its appearance in the afternoon, giving you away.

On a side note: this whole thread is a great reminder of how much things have changed in my lifetime; I'm pretty sure there was no class in the Cultural History of the Breast when I was in school!

Annie
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LostInTime

Growing up, did not care too much for the fleshy chest.  Ran counter to what was expected of me.

Today it is a love/hate relationship.
With a partner, definately love.
On them just being there, love.
Catching the door jam with them while trying to quickly step through and around, not so much love.
Having to wear a bra everyday or be sore, definately a pain in the arse.

This fall I hope to start playing in a soccer league again for the first time in 19 years.  I am sure after the first practise I will have at least one other to list under the "do not like so much" column.   :P

Seriously, the first change that was noticed with the body was the fact that my chest filled out more.  I was happy and excited which signaled to me that I had made the right choice.  As time went by and they filled out a bit more here and there I noticed a change in how I was treated by those around me.  Doors held open, people being a bit nicer, and guys talking to my chest more than to me.   ;D
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corrine

I have pretty medium sized, not-terribly-perky, unextraordinary breasts. I feel pretty nuetral about them. Although when wearing a swimming suit or certain shirts I am thankful they are there...so yes that is how I feel about them. I suppose if I was a mother and I fed children from them I would feel more empowered about them, but for now I'm unimpressed.
   In the Cultural History of the Breast Class...we use breasts as tool for understanding the history of women....our topics run the gamet...from breastfeeding to breast cancer to fashion to visual art to poetry to identity development, et cetera...
Thanks everyone for sharing!
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taylor

I know guys that grow breasts, and they are otherwise "intact" men. They are also under the label of Intersex, but it makes them no less of a man. Just on a different spot on the whole spectrum of sexual identity.

I know guys that grow breasts that are NOT identified as Intersex ( Ambiguous Biological Identities) and they do have them removed, even though nature put them there, due to social ramifications, and who could blame them?

I know women that never grow breasts, unless they transition from their previously assigned sex status as a "male", but they are no less women , just on a different area of the spectrum of sexual identity. I believe we all call these women Trans women.

I know men that grow breasts, that are removed for the transitional purposes of a male trans, men that are just another variable on the spectrum of sexual identity.

I know men that also have had breast cancer, my mom's ex boyfriend went through this, along with thousands of others in our country every day! Yet we have socially assigned it a womans desease. Think about how dangerous that is for men!

And then there are the "assigned females" at birth that don't grow breasts, and wish they had, but they are just flat chested women, no less a woman than a trans woman or a woman that developed full breasts. They too just land, like the REST of us, some where else on the sexual identity spectrum.

It is interesting how we as a society have allowed ourselves to buy into the message that the two sexes are so easily divided into two sexes only. Need I say ignoring the evidence?


As a trans/Intersex male, I had to have medical surgery to have 300 tumors removed, and never had breast development issues after that. It was the medical need that allowed it to be ok with my family. I had a lot of support from friends when I went through this, I was real young and it was just dealt with.

I can grow a full beard in three days, it does not make me any more male than I always have been,  it just tells the world that I am male, in a way they can comprehend.

Historically women that grew beards where displayed as part of freak shows in circus's through out the country. Where they freaks? No, they were women on the spectrum.

It is funny how we all respond to  social cues, and it is sad that in doing so we have so many people ( such as in the trans world) being deprived our very basic rights to be who and what we are in nature. Men and women all fluid and flowing on a scope of equality.

This class that is being attended, appears to be reinforcing the social stigma's that we all need to get away from. All kinds of people may or may not grow breasts, and all people can have breast cancer!

Yes like anyone else, I hated my chest, and was soooo relieved when they were gone after that surgery.  And all I have learned sense ( I am now 42) does not change the fact that I am glad as hell they are gone. Because I am human and I must live in this world too. Even if I do know that they can be on all sex variables under the sun. I sure did not want them on me.

Just my view on this.

Taylor
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Leigh

Quote from: taylor on May 02, 2006, 09:28:06 AM
?

I know women that never grow breasts, unless they transition from their previously assigned sex status as a "male", but they are no less women , just on a different area of the spectrum of sexual identity. I believe we all call these women Trans women.


Who is this "we" you refer to.  "You" have the perogative to use whatever reference suits you but to infer that everyone (we) use trans woman is erroneous.

Leigh
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taylor

Leigh!

Your absolutely correct! Sorry, I should have said, many people refer to as...not "we' my error, that is like saying that people call all trans men trans men, that too is not true, thanks for pointing this out to me!

Peace,

Taylor
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Sophie

I basically agree with what Dennis said...(I'm FTM too) I hate being reminded of their existance, and it's hard to pretend they aren't there at all...
This is a very interesting topic.
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Annie Social

One other point about breasts: they can play a big part in determining our 'passability' (whether or not passing is important is another subject).

Peoples' initial impressions of ones gender are based on a number of cues, of varying importance. A low voice, being tall, wearing pants, having large hands and feet, short hair, facial hair, and a flat chest and hips are all seen as male traits. Long hair, petite size, makeup, smaller features, skirts or dresses, high heels, and a curvy body are female traits. Most people show a mixtue of male and female cues, but the preponderance of one or the other is what determines our impression of someone.

For example, Bea Arthur has a very low voice, but no one would take her as male. But if she were flat chested, had a crew cut, and wore jeans and a t-shirt and no makeup, that impression might change.

A young MTF transsexual, with a petite body, small features, and a flat chest can still pass as female fairly easily, even dressed in jeans and a top. An older transitioner, 6 feet tall, with big hands and craggy features, needs more help such as a skirt and heels, makeup... and breasts. More female cues are needed to outweigh the male ones, and breasts are a very strong cue.

We can't change our height or the size of our hands & feet, and modifying our facial features is extremely expensive. But breasts can be changed, with hormones, implants, or a few dollars worth of silicone rubber.

They're one of the few things we can change, so it should be no surprise that, to those of us that need them, they are a very big deal.
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Dennis

Kate Bornstein says (and I'm not sure about the numbers, it's been years since I read Gender Outlaw and some borrower wandered off with my copy), that the default in society is male. That you need fewer social cues (like voice, hands, height, attire, facial features...the list goes on) to pass as male than you do to pass as female.

That does seem to be borne out with what I've experienced. I started passing as male about three weeks before my actual planned transition. I had a surreal moment in the bank, where I was dressed in the business clothes I always wore, breasts as apparent as they usually were (which isn't very. I did hate them, but it was a pain in the butt to make an actual effort to hide them), but because my face had changed on testosterone and my voice, though still not definitely male, had changed somewhat, the bank would not believe that I was the person on my ID (still female). This is with a female haircut, breasts showing, not much change to my body at all, and wearing women's clothing.

And, I have a straight bio female friend, who doesn't dress masculinely at all, but she's 6'1 and has large hands, who is constantly taken for an MtF. This is a woman with very feminine curves and a high pitched voice (although she has inflection that is taken to be masculine - she's a very confident, very intelligent lawyer and brooks no bs from anyone).

She finds her non-passing amusing (of course, because she doesn't have the fear that one of us would have about being "clocked") and has a very good attitude about it. You're right, Annie, for passing, one of the strong cues is breasts. When she is dressed in a way that shows them, she has much less trouble passing as a woman. Skirts are another cue that works for her.

It strikes me as odd, the whole social perception of gender and the cues people pick up on. But I think Kate Bornstein is right on her proposition that it does take more cues to be perceived as female than as male.

Dennis
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Kate

Quote from: Dennis on May 04, 2006, 01:57:06 AM
And, I have a straight bio female friend, who doesn't dress masculinely at all, but she's 6'1 and has large hands, who is constantly taken for an MtF. This is a woman with very feminine curves and a high pitched voice (although she has inflection that is taken to be masculine - she's a very confident, very intelligent lawyer and brooks no bs from anyone).

Is it possible that her mannerisms, her "no BS" confidence is what is contributing to her being taken as M2F? That is, I wonder if she'd still have this problem if she was more stereotypically feminine in her behaviour?

I'm obsessively concerned that my being 6'2" will doom me to a life of questionable passing after transition, even if my appearance is perfect otherwise. This story seems to confirm that fear :(

Kate
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Dennis

No, Kate I didn't mean to do that. I do think it's her confidence and the way she holds herself in addition to her height and hands that have her taken as MtF. She takes huge strides when she walks as well. I have to run about three steps for every one of hers.

The other thing is, because she is bio female and it doesn't bother her to be taken as MtF, she often dresses in a manner that hides her curves.

I certainly didn't want to make anyone feel nervous about passing. Remember, she's not trying to pass at all.

Dennis
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Annie Social

Quote from: Dennis on May 04, 2006, 01:57:06 AMShe finds her non-passing amusing (of course, because she doesn't have the fear that one of us would have about being "clocked") and has a very good attitude about it.

I think that may be the key; it doesn't bother her because she doesn't have the fear. My hope is to get to that point myself; that I no longer care about being clocked, because I know who I am. If it doesn't bother her, why should it bother me?

Annie
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