As I bow out of this discussion I want to note that when I first became a board member of Lutherans Concerned, there were a number of people who thought that including TSs would be a fine thing, but they weren't comfortable with the idea of accepting a bunch of CDs.  During my time on the board I worked constantly to let people know that discrimination is always discrimination and that the mission of LC is to support people of all sexual orientations and gender identities.

this is simple.  men don't belong in women's spaces.  period.

Quotesusan's is a tg group.  it works here.  i like it here.  but i also like being exclusively with ts's in some forums and for some purposes.

That's the key, that quote is the key to this argument. When this discussion began, by the end of the second post it seemed to be a carry-over from another discussion of a few nights ago when there was some disagreement about whether or not a CD should have the right to say something about their thoughts in a "TS thread" or to a "TS person."

If that argument had been taking place on the MTF "Just for Us" forum there would have been no problem in the first place. The person in question would not have been able to have seen the statements and, hence, would have made no reply. Thus, no argument.

Wing Walker started a thread here afterwards about CDs in TS support groups. A reasonable discussion, or so it seemed to me. The difficulty began when another poster continued the remarks begun the night before from that other thread. That almost immediately made this discussion about, once more, the night before, instead of the perfectly sane disagreement that Wing Walker started with: CDs and TSes do not necessarily even begin to understand one another and mixed support groups do not work well.

Having experienced a primarily CD support-group, thinking at first, because of their advertising, that it was TS, I readily agree to Wing Walker's initial contention. That group divided into TS and CD groups after a business meeting of about 1/2 hour. Effectively 2 separate groups meeting at the same time. That seemed to work.

This forum is not segregated in that fashion, unless a post is made in the "Just For Us" area appropriate to someone's identity.

Support groups, as in those out in the "real world," can be and are.

The arguments here are now going at cross-purposes to one another and are only here for the sake of argument, so it seems to me. I totally agree with Tasha's comment. I also agree with, given the context, every last person who has posted on this thread. But these remain double-contexts.

This board is a TG board until and unless Susan changes the nature of it. If someone wants their posts CD-, androgyne- or ftm-free of commentary: then post your comments in the mtf "Just For Us" spaces provided. What and how anyone fashions their lives away from this board, with whom they talk or do not talk, with whom or without whom they go to "support" meetings, is strictly their own business and not subject to Forum Rules. These threads ARE subject to Forum Rules.

Live your lives, people, and allow others to live theirs. You want a room-of-your own? Use it, you already have it.

Nichole

Quote from: ell on July 18, 2008, 02:01:59 AM
One day there was this gathering of cross-dressers and they were talking and having a fun meeting and then, out of the blue comes this large group of Transsexuals, who just barged in and started taking over the place! it was like, they were being invaded by this so-called group of so-called peeps, if you will (and i think you will).

Well, of course after the transsexuals show up, here comes an intersex group, and, right after them, those dang non-binary androgynes, followed by a couple of FTM's with all their male space-invader ways, and followed by, worst of all, a few lactose-intolerants.  Sheesh!
-Ellie

yes, i know ell.  i was at that party.  we were all having a bunch of fun.  it wasn't the lactose-intolerants that ended the fun though, but when the aa crowd showed up and started insisting that we have to close the bar...well, things just went down hill from there.  the party was over early for all intents and purposes.

Hi all, I truly don't like to see people flaming about other people that I agree does not belong in the affairs of TS. I am not certain who opened the thread Just for us but pleas check it out, you may find it more to your liking for discussing sensitive subjects.

You will Find Just For Us at
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,39331.0.html

Again thanks to whom ever set it up.

Cindy

I must mention at this point that I am a Co-Admin for a 'Transgendered' board, one that accepts as members anyone that is either TS/TV/TG/CD or any person that respects and admires such people.  It is rather different to this board in that it covers areas that may not be appropiate here but it is not set up to exclude anyone unless they break the one rule that matters most and that is to show respect for us.

I joined Susan's because it was different and it allows me to just take part and read and discuss matters as a transsexual woman with other twomen as an equal with no duties to monitor or edit or make rulings etc...this particular thread has justified my decision to join  

Susan set it up Cindy and it is NOT a new space, it's been here for some time.

N~

there's also a Discrimination section, which is where this thread belongs.

-Ell

Hi Nichole, I just happen to see it a couple of days ago when I was going down the list of different forums looking for something else, Hmmm maybe I was abducted by aliens or something, "hee, hee, hee." Just kiddin. But that's the way it goes, I know I need glasses but I hate the darn things.

Cindy 

Posted on: July 18, 2008, 01:46:51 PM

---

Hi Ell I don't believe I will be going there. But if you would post the thread for it here it maybe more convenient for those who are blind like me.

Cindy

Quote from: ell on July 18, 2008, 01:40:26 PM
there's also a Discrimination section, which is where this thread belongs.

-Ell

PMS ZONE  this is a place to get it off your chest!  "it" as far as i can make out is an undefined pronoun in this context.

Look-it. most of the lately made comments on this thread have been rather innocuous. Please keep them that way. PJ's comment was perfectly appropriate. As were Cindy's and Ellie has every right to opine that a thread might seem to her better fit for another board.

So, keep them in-line with those comments, please. No need to lock a thread if people don't have to feel like they have to convert others. How much does that occur among gender-variants anyhow? 

Thanks so much,

Nichole

Quote from: Natasha on July 18, 2008, 09:21:59 AM
this is simple.  men don't belong in women's spaces.  period.

This is your statement turned around.  Women don't belong in men's spaces.  Period.

Or how about this one.  Blacks don't belong in White's spaces.  Period.

It depends on what the space is, doesn't it, together with the grounds for categorizing the groups differently.  It is, perhaps, reasonable to exclude women from men's restrooms, but not so reasonable to classify an FTM as female.  It is not reasonable to exclude Black's from White's restrooms.  I don't think it is reasonable to callsify a TS support group as women's space, either, especially if it is open to FTMs.  And if a TS group is only open to TS women, a CD is not excluded on the basis that she is not a woman.  And I don't think it is fair to say that a CD is never a woman.  If a CD chooses to say she is a woman when presenting as such, then I say she is right, and should be welcome in women's restrooms, for example.

hi glenda.  that's where i draw the line.  maybe it's generational but i do not want a man, i don't care how he's dressed, in the bathroom with me.  period.  in fact i would personally feel less comfortable with a man dressed in women's clothing then a generic male.  my assumption is, and i don't think it's a rare assumption, at least among my generation, that a man who is dressed in women's clothing is presently involved in a sexual act.  one doesn't have to be handling his genitalia to be experiencing erotic fantasies.  of course that isn't always true, but it's not an unreasonable assumption.  while it's not rape, it is sexual abuse to involve one person in another's sexual act without their approval.

knowing the difference by visual assessment may not be practical and the benefit of the doubt should go to the individual, but if i KNOW he's a man, i don't want him in there with me.  if it's a one room potty where one can lock the door for her privacy and a man comes in by himself it doesn't bother me...<as long as he doesn't pee all over the place>...but then i wouldn't want a woman to do that either.

there are times when i have gone into a public restroom for the express purposes of making adjustment to something i might need to at least partially undress to fix.  maybe it's old fashioned but at least in me it's deeply embedded, modestly won't allow me to undress in front of men without a darn good reason.  other people may have different sensibilities about this but i am not ready to have that sensibility imposed on me yet and it has nothing to do with my transness.  i guess that's one part of my thinking that lends me to the "just another woman" club.

Quote from: glendagladwitch on July 18, 2008, 02:19:38 PM

Quote from: Natasha on July 18, 2008, 09:21:59 AM
this is simple.  men don't belong in women's spaces.  period.

This is your statement turned around.  Women don't belong in men's spaces.  Period.

Or how about this one.  Blacks don't belong in White's spaces.  Period.

It depends on what the space is, doesn't it, together with the grounds for categorizing the groups differently.  It is, perhaps, reasonable to exclude women from men's restrooms, but not so reasonable to classify an FTM as female.  It is not reasonable to exclude Black's from White's restrooms.  I don't think it is reasonable to callsify a TS support group as women's space, either, especially if it is open to FTMs.  And if a TS group is only open to TS women, a CD is not excluded on the basis that she is not a woman.  And I don't think it is fair to say that a CD is never a woman.  If a CD chooses to say she is a woman when presenting as such, then I say she is right, and should be welcome in women's restrooms, for example.

cd's have a male gender identification; consequently that makes them men.  wearing a dress every rainy saturday doesn't make anyone a woman, not on my book.   that's my opinion btw.

Quotecd's have a male gender identification; consequently that makes them men.  wearing a dress every rainy saturday doesn't make anyone a woman, not on my book.   that's my opinion btw.

This statement, as it stands as written and taken literally, is correct and one that agree with.  As a law student, I would use it in the literal sence if I was having to present a case in a court room but it struggles if we have to live in this politically correct world where diversity rules what we can say or write or do etc.,    another variable is with genetic women that decide, for whatever reason, to only ever wear trousers/pants and have rejected skirts, we never call them crossdressers.....here lies the conundrum.  Those women are still women regardless of how they appear dressed, I am a woman likewise because in my opinion, I have chosen to live as such and dress accordingly to how I believe I wish to appear to others.

However, as for men in a dress on a rainy Saturday wanting to spend time with me and my friends? er.....no thanks   

Quote from: pennyjane on July 18, 2008, 02:52:57 PM
hi glenda.  that's where i draw the line.  maybe it's generational but i do not want a man, i don't care how he's dressed, in the bathroom with me.  period.  in fact i would personally feel less comfortable with a man dressed in women's clothing then a generic male.  my assumption is, and i don't think it's a rare assumption, at least among my generation, that a man who is dressed in women's clothing is presently involved in a sexual act.  one doesn't have to be handling his genitalia to be experiencing erotic fantasies.  of course that isn't always true, but it's not an unreasonable assumption.  while it's not rape, it is sexual abuse to involve one person in another's sexual act without their approval.

knowing the difference by visual assessment may not be practical and the benefit of the doubt should go to the individual, but if i KNOW he's a man, i don't want him in there with me.  if it's a one room potty where one can lock the door for her privacy and a man comes in by himself it doesn't bother me...<as long as he doesn't pee all over the place>...but then i wouldn't want a woman to do that either.

there are times when i have gone into a public restroom for the express purposes of making adjustment to something i might need to at least partially undress to fix.  maybe it's old fashioned but at least in me it's deeply embedded, modestly won't allow me to undress in front of men without a darn good reason.  other people may have different sensibilities about this but i am not ready to have that sensibility imposed on me yet and it has nothing to do with my transness.  i guess that's one part of my thinking that lends me to the "just another woman" club.

So I suppose you think that a CD presenting as a woman in public does not have the right to use the restroom?  Or perhaps you think she ought to use the men's room and get beaten up, raped, and/or killed?  Surely, you must also agree with Barney Franks that ENDA should not include Transgender because preop TS women should not be in the ladies room.  Surely it is not too much to ask that they must also use the men's room and be assulted, raped, and/or killed.

I still advocate for a bright line rule that one's gender identity is whatever one says at the time, and access to gendered facilities should be granted on the basis of gender of presentation at the time.  Yes, preop TS women should have access even to women's showers so long as they present as women, including wearing a bathing suit and tucking it out of sight.

no glenda.  you again overreact.  you are trying to make it sound as if i am some hate filled bigot who wants to annialate the whole world.  you are completely wrong and you aren't being fair at all in charaterizing me in that way.  by doing that you avoid the substance of the argument and concentrate on the aruguer.  a good tactic if you're out to win...but if you are discussing and sharing it's not very helpful.

i think a cd should take responsibility for his own actions.  i think a cd should confine his crossdressing to places where facilities are available to him.  if he chooses to go to places where he might be beaten up or killed the perogative is his and the consequences are his as well.  no one should ever be beaten up or killed though.  my remedy is that he understand in advance that facilites are binary gendered in most instances and he is still a man regardless of how he dresses and in the vast majority of places his presence in the ladies' rooms will not be welcomed.  then it's up to him to decide if he wants to risk the men's room.  he has choices.

that doesn't mean i hate him or want to see him harmed.  that's something you have made up in your own mind to charaterize me as because you don't like what i'm saying and you don't like me because i say it.  that's really a shame.  that kind of behavior is what does drive people apart and stifles any chance for dialogue and conciliation.

as far as enda goes...that is a topic for politics.

i will say this, and again the truth is going to make some people mad.  i just hope you will stop and think about it from another perspective for just a minute.  i'm sure all transsexuals of either gender will hear and understand this.  crossdressing is a behavior...transsexulism is an identity.  they cannot be treated the same, they are not the same.  it's a mistake to try to make them the same.  it's just not realistic.

Quote from: pennyjane on July 18, 2008, 06:26:09 PM
i'm sure all transsexuals of either gender will hear and understand this.  crossdressing is a behavior...transsexulism is an identity.  they cannot be treated the same, they are not the same.  it's a mistake to try to make them the same.  it's just not realistic.

I said I was bowing out. I said I was bowing out.  I'm so glad some people have been given the divine revelation that allows them to speak for all transsexuals of either gender.  Firmly biting my tongue, I repeat the prayer my mother taught me, "Dear Lord, please keep your arm around my shoulder and your hand pressed tightly over my mouth."

i apologize lisbeth.  most transsexuals will hear and understand.  not necessarily agree.  and now...i bow out.

no, i take that apology back.  i have said nothing that i need to apologize for.  throughout this whole argument i have treated everyone with respect and kept a civil tongue in my mouth.  i cannot concieve of ANY TRANSSEXUAL who would not hear and understand what i said.  i have been treated like dirt by people who can't make a valid argument based on the facts so you resort to just villifying me.

that's mean and cruel and strictly the act of a bunch of bullies.  precisely why some people need seperate space.  so, yes...i'll go now and keep my butt in the same space with the girls in the future.  good luck to you all.

Quote from: pennyjane on July 18, 2008, 07:46:13 PM
i cannot concieve of ANY TRANSSEXUAL who would not hear and understand what i said. 

Yes, I do believe you can't conceive of it.  Your apparent inability to see a different point of view is why I have issues with what you said.