Quote from: Keira on July 23, 2008, 04:50:43 AM

There is actually a physiological diff in the female and male larynx, its not
just positioning. T changes the larynx's shape.

Its not that much of the size either, its more the shape it has which makes
it protude more. There is a bit of a diff in size, but that doesn't explain
the adam's apple by itself.

But, its possible to reinforce certain muscles in your throat to make
it easier to position the larynx at its highest position which
gives a head voice (in singing). The head voice has a shallower
hair column and thus gives higher harmonics not just in the direct
from the vocal cords sound, but also in its reflection.

Yes, and women naturally use more of their head voice because of the lack of testosterone which helps in  lowering the voice. They are able to keep it there because they breathe using their upper airway muscles, where as males use the there lower muscles( which gives the larynx room to drop).

QuoteI have a very noticeable adam's apple but I have noticed that when I swallow it moves up and all but vanishes for a second then moves back down when the motion is done. I have often wondered if you could train your throat muscles to hold it up there where is much less noticeable. This is the same thing Keira is talking about I think. The only problem is I get a sore throat when I hold it there for long. I wonder if its possible to build the muscles up enough to hold it there permanently. Hmm I am going to have to do some serious google searching later today.
K

Not only do you have to train your muscles to do this, but you have to train yourself to breathe differently to keep it up there. If you can breathe using more of your upper airway muscles, your adams apple will become less prominent.

Now, I'm noticing some  strong psychological connections that could assist in making this easier. I believe it has something to do with how we hear ourselves. I read a report that said most people hear themselves a deep pitch/tone because of vibrations in the skull, whereas other people hear us differently(generally with a higher pitch). This was an explanation as to why don't think we sound like we do when we record our voices.

I'm finding it helpful to listen to myself talk LIVE in a pitch alternating program but at a deeper pitch.( -1)
When I hear voice in this altered lower pitch, my brain seems to tell me to raise my pitch because it knows this not how I want to sound. After a  while, I'll put the pitch back to normal and notice that my voice sounds better. (more pitch).

I also do this with the music I listen to. I lower the pitch of the song to about -3 ( in audacity) and sing along with it. When we sing along to a song, I think our brain tells us that "we" are the ones making that Britney voice, so we get relaxed because "we sound good", but its not us.
But when you lower the pitch of the song, your brain tells you that "this is not how the song is supposed to sound!" so you sing along with it but you're making an effort to sound pitcher hoping to sound more accurate than this altered version.

This is kinda stuff is why I think some kind of voice therapy would be great. I've never taken voice therapy but if I can conclude this type of stuff on my own, then I wonder what kind of techniques a therapist would have you go over. Maybe what I do to myself is a bit intense...lol

A really interesting thread,

i still have no idea how to breath with my upper airway to try some of this out, luckily in some ways im only small with a small jaw and ive already learnt to remove alot of the bass and depth in my own but if your ever bored silentcandy im sure alot of us would really like to try out your methods probably in conjuction with their own speech therapy.

A beginners guide sometime

V x

I've actually tried doing that before, just to remember certain key things that would help me -warm up- in the day and to keep of list of what does what.  Its like I learn new techinques but forget about some of the older ones.  Thats kinda why I started that youtube account too. Until a few days ago, I had forgotten how effective doing "head voice" training was. I've been so hooked on the geniohyoid muscle and upper airway stuff. Even now, as  I'm drinking coffee, I'm wondering if I should stop again since I've already used it to help me breathe easier...I think I will stop.

I'm not going to throw myself too much into this discussion.

But, if you refer to Calpernia Adams CD/DVD about creating a female voice, part of the training is learning to raise the larynx.  This does a couple of things.  It cuts the resonance of the male voice so it sounds more feminine.  It also obscures the trachea because it is hidden beneath the other throat muscles.  And yes, you can learn to breath using the upper part of your lungs and less of your diaphragm.

If you have a less pronounced trachea then you will have less of a protuberance.  So less of your Adams apple will appear.

My trachea was small to begin with but I still opted for the shave, even though it too was virtually invisible when I raised my larynx to cut my resonance.

Also I too have been creating my feminine voice for well over a year using these same techniques.  I now get ma'amd on the phone.

Silentcandy:
Your process of self discovery is gratifying.  And I wish you all the best.  The best rule of thumb when learning to feminize your voice is that if it hurts, don't do it.

And check out Cal's website for some free tips about voice training.  They really help!

-Sandy

Thank you Kassandra I complete agree that if it hurts, don't do it. The first week I started I decided to scream my throat out in an attempt to sound better... it gave me my first case of laryngitis and I told myself I would never do that again, and I haven't.

I've never heard of Calpernia Adams but I will check her out now, she sounds like she knows what she's talking about. ^ ^

a rather famous lady

she also has a forum, kind of small and takes ages to get signed up but still worthwhile. Thanks as well Kassandra, to be honest i wasnt sure if Ms adams course was just another product what with so many therapy courses its hard to choose one thats gonig to really help and they usualy cost so much too.

I'm not sure how to go about breathing with upper respiratory muscles and all that, but I'll look into that.  I haven't had much luck with my voice so far...

I'm kind of odd - my Adam's apple is small.  Really small.  Invisibly small, without exaggeration.  It's also really really low, like almost under the collarbone.  Even if I tilt my head back and swallow, it's very hard to pick out among the general tracheal/esophageal movement.  I can feel it with my hands, but I have to actually poke myself in the throat to do it.  That makes it really hard (and uncomfortable) to observe what happens to it during voice practice.  If I raise my pitch, it gets lost somewhere inside my upper neck, and yet I still sound like a guy.

Actually, the most success I had with my voice was one day when I jabbed the edge of my hand into my trachea near the base of my jaw while holding a high note, just for the hell of it.  It dropped the pitch dramatically, and I fought to raise it back (and to breathe) while holding the hand there.  When I had it back, and took away the hand, my voice got somehow "stuck" in a quasi-female sounding tone & resonance for a few minutes, until I cleared my throat.

Quote from: Krystal on July 23, 2008, 06:27:27 AM
I have a very noticeable adam's apple but I have noticed that when I swallow it moves up and all but vanishes for a second then moves back down when the motion is done. I have often wondered if you could train your throat muscles to hold it up there where is much less noticeable. This is the same thing Keira is talking about I think. The only problem is I get a sore throat when I hold it there for long. I wonder if its possible to build the muscles up enough to hold it there permanently. Hmm I am going to have to do some serious google searching later today.
K

Krystal.........Yeah, it's more than just possible.  That is how Kathy Perez teaches female resonance and pitch in her CD's.  If your throat gets sore, then rest it, but keep practicing.  I had no choice, as I went fulltime, BOOM, overnight.  It stops getting sore after a month or two, and then you can use your voice almost all day. Yes, it is a process of building up certain laryngeal muscles, and letting others relax, so they diminish in size.  The intention is to develop a female voice, not hide your adams apple, although that happens also.  I've practiced my voice for a year now, and rest during my days off, but I still have a female voice, just a note or two lower.  I can summon up my old voice if I concentrate, then flip back and forth.  Marcy hates it.  It creeps her out, so I won't do it anymore.  Besides, why would I want the old voice of Mike??  Okay.....once in a while, if I have to talk to my medical insurance reps, or something off the wall like that, I'll use my male voice, but it's not anything that it used to be, thank God.
Now, I practice my female singing voice.  I sang in choir as a baritone, and now have an alto voice.  I much prefer singing in my female voice.

Bev

Well, I don't know about "muscles" hiding the larynx because T sometimes causes the adam's apple to develop in FtMs (or at least that's what I've heard). Also, with my limited knowledge of anatomy, I can feel my larynx just fine. It doesn't seem blocked by anything.

As you can see in my avatar, my larynx is showing up in the shadowing. That photo, however, is a trick of the light. That's me being a good photographer; I have no true adam's apple.

Hi Miss Bev
Have you got a link to those Kathy Perez CDs?  google can't seem to find them My voice is going to be the hardest think for me to change I think and I need all the help with it I can get.
thanks
K