Quote from: Nichole on August 01, 2008, 08:44:29 PM
And actually, Virginia Prince is still alive and she didn't "coin" the term. The term was used before her but she grabbed hold of it. The coining of the term is generally attributed to her by transsexuals. She did say that she meant to destroy the term transsexuality. As far as I know Virginia spoke for herself.

I've never met a CD who was determine to destroy us before. Of course I haven't gone to San Diego to meet Virginia Prince who's about 98 right now either.

A visceral hatred expressed tends to lead to only hatred. I personally know more than a few TSes, classic ones, "who sound like men."

But here's the fact. Visceral hatred is exactly what killed Angie Zapata. That it is used by sisters just appalls me.

N~ 

Here is the link to the story about Angie Zapata in the New York Times: 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/02/us/02murder.html?ref=us

Murder and violence are never acceptable.

Wing Walker



Posted on: August 02, 2008, 01:59:00 AM

---

Here is a link concerning bio information about Virginia Prince:

http://zagria.blogspot.com/2008/04/virginia-prince-1912-pharmacologist.html

With the internet being what it is, I cannot vouch for or stand against the correctness of this item.

Wing Walker

well there are some things that need to be said even if it upsets some people.  i think we're fine as long as we don't turn to personal attacks, right?

Posted on: August 02, 2008, 04:43:40 AM

---

ya if you're implying that a crossdresser is a ts, you've go another thing coming.  they aren't.  even the definitions of this website label them as something entirely different so let's stick to them, k?

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,14714.0.html

Quote from: site standard terms and definitionsTranssexual: a person who is mentally one gender, but has the body of the other. They desire to live and be accepted as a member of the mental gender, this is generally accompanied by the strong desire to make their body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatments.

Crossdresser: a person wears the clothing of the opposite gender, and has no desire to permanently change their sex. There is generally no sexual motivation for the cross-dressing.

->-bleeped-<-: a person who wears the clothing of the opposite gender, and has no desire to permanently change their sex. There is generally a strong sexual motivation for the cross-dressing.

androgyne

androgyne

should i go on?

Having re-worked this and posted it elsewhere I've removed it .

Nichole

Crossdressers aren't ts and that's all there is to it.  the rest is just semantics.

I can't tell you what to think.

You can't make me think a way I don't want to think.

(seems like a couple of universal truths for this here particular META-topic...)

So if that be, then I'll address the following to no one in particular.  I've said the same thing in other topics.

The word Transsexual carries with it a HUGE negative connotation in general society, and moreso in the Religious Reich segment.  Even though it's seen in the 'T' community to denote a distinction of those who live 24/7/365 as their true genders from the 'weekend warriors, that distinction is lost on society-at-large.

Society will also not let any subgroup escape separately from the cursed Transgender Umbrella.  They see no difference between a Glam Drag Clown, Candis Cayne, or Angie Zapata.  To them it's all the same.

Reclaim "Transsexual" from those forces?  How much money 'choo got?  Think "Tylenol" as in the Tylenol poisoning a few years back.  That kind of heroic (and hugely expensive) campaign is what it's going to take to re-brand the word TransSEXUAL so that it doesn't make a significant segment think of SEX!SEX!SEX!

Quote from: http://christianglbtrights.blogspot.com/2008/01/symbolism-nuditiy-and-sexuality.htmlLast year, I asked my class to tell me the first word that came into their minds when I said the following word: I said, "Gay," and virtually everyone came back with the word, "Sex." Most people don't see LGBT people as being "fully human," or being comprised of many facets that go to make up a fully functional human beings but, rather, they have been conditioned by the paradoxical mind-set regarding things sexual, as honed to a fine art in most religious circles (and imposed on both religious and secular society), to think of LGBT people in terms of their sexuality, and nothing else.

Until that heroic, 'Tylenol'-sized ad campaign runs to re-brand the word "Transsexual", and it's had enough time to work (say, five years,) you are shooting yourself in the foot every time you shove the word 'transsexual' down a str8 Religious Reicher's throat.

And while I'm at it, how are you going to educate the general public in the differences between a Drag Clown, a weekend warrior, and a 24/7/365.  Until THEY understand the difference, we're like conjoined twins whether we like it or not.  If you think it's easy to change the public's mind , or get them to use the verbiage you wish them to use, I'll trot out my 'Tent Cities' story to illustrate...

You want to make a distinction between 24/7/365 and 'but only on weekends', fine.  The right of association is enshrined in the first amendment.

Until general society understands the differences, I'm going to be smart and use the word 'Transgender' because it doesn't have the deeply negative connotations that 'Transsexual has.

Karen

Quote from: redfish the flip-flopper on August 02, 2008, 11:42:49 AM

QuoteShe would be exhibiting 'transgender behaviour' if she decided to go out in a men's shirt and tie!

I dunno, are we ready to label every action that does not follow gender norms as being "transgender behavior?" Wouldn't we kind of be enforcing gender norms by doing so (or have "gender norms" been replaced by "cisgender norms?")

Also, if I were to wear a men's shirt and tie, people might find it a little odd, but I don't think they'd necessarily consider my behavior to be "transgender." However, if someone they read as a man wore a dress, they'd probably be more likely to consider it that way. There's definitely a difference between how people read as female and people read as male are considered - transgender is not free from social construction.

I agree with you entirely.  I was just demonstrating the flaw with how the term is commonly applied to transsexual people.  The issues you state are a big part of why I avoid using the term whenever possible (the presence of at least 3 conflicting definitions in common use is another reason why I avoid it).

The term transgender is certainly not free from social construction, indeed it's largely the result of social constructions.

threads of this nature do not send a welcome message to Cross Dressers. on the contrary, these kinds of threads might just tend to drive Cross Dressers away, and make them feel inferior and stupid.

the Trans clubs that i have seen are absolutely dependent on Cross Dressers. i mean, unless you're talking about dives where the people are mostly um, "professionals." those clubs are mostly Trans, and they are usually not so friendly.

so if you want to have "nice" Trans clubs which are not professional, you need to welcome Cross Dressers. places like Susan's are very helpful, but occasionally it is also helpful to talk to a real person.

Cross Dressers, though sometimes horny, are neither inferior nor stupid. they are, in my opinion, more friendly and honest than the general public at large. they are intelligent, fun-loving, have a good sense of humor, and are nice to have as friends.

-Ell

Quote from: Lisbeff's Elf on August 03, 2008, 03:10:07 AMthreads of this nature do not send a welcome message to Cross Dressers. on the contrary, these kinds of threads might just tend to drive Cross Dressers away, and make them feel inferior and stupid.

the Trans clubs that i have seen are absolutely dependent on Cross Dressers. i mean, unless you're talking about dives where the people are mostly um, "professionals." those clubs are mostly Trans, and they are usually not so friendly.

so if you want to have "nice" Trans clubs which are not professional, you need to welcome Cross Dressers. places like Susan's are very helpful, but occasionally it is also helpful to talk to a real person.

Cross Dressers, though sometimes horny, are neither inferior nor stupid. they are, in my opinion, more friendly and honest than the general public at large. they are intelligent, fun-loving, have a good sense of humor, and are nice to have as friends.

-Ell

I do not agree.  This is the "Transsexual Talk" section isn't it?  This is the only section I post in.  In the past I tried posting in some neutral areas and found that too confusing because different people have way different perspectives.  The result was I was often misinterpreted.  Out of respect I have never posted in the CD section.  I know their needs are different from mine and I would expect that they show us the same courtesy.

A BIG mega-forum like this can't please everybody.

If you subject us to the whims and feeling of everybody else here (Susan's) you might as well shut this whole place down.  We need the intellectual freedom and freedom to be ourselves if this place is to satisfy it's mission.

I also think the mods here do a pretty good job of keeping things running smoothly and providing thread guidance when necessary.

Quote from: Beyond on August 03, 2008, 04:54:43 AM
I do not agree.  This is the "Transsexual Talk" section isn't it?  This is the only section I post in.  In the past I tried posting in some neutral areas and found that too confusing because different people have way different perspectives.  The result was I was often misinterpreted.  Out of respect I have never posted in the CD section.  I know their needs are different from mine and I would expect that they show us the same courtesy.

A BIG mega-forum like this can't please everybody.

If you subject us to the whims and feeling of everybody else here (Susan's) you might as well shut this whole place down.  We need the intellectual freedom and freedom to be ourselves if this place is to satisfy it's mission.

I also think the mods here do a pretty good job of keeping things running smoothly and providing thread guidance when necessary.

um, i just go to the "Show unread posts since last visit" link, and read, where ever i find an interesting topic. if i accidentally post in a place where i am not welcome...well, i don't know, people here have generally not made me feel unwelcome. well, of course, people do sometimes become argumentative and mean-spirited. this is because anger is often a satisfying type of expression, i think.

Fundamentalists can't get enough of trashing people who do not think like them. There is a "homosexual agenda," they say.
one must defend freedom, or family, or the church.

but at the end of the day, when they are saying their prayers and asking forgiveness, do they admit that their words have hurt other human beings? that with their words, they have been spreading hate?

Quote from: Lisbeff's Elf on August 03, 2008, 03:10:07 AM
threads of this nature do not send a welcome message to Cross Dressers. on the contrary, these kinds of threads might just tend to drive Cross Dressers away, and make them feel inferior and stupid.

the Trans clubs that i have seen are absolutely dependent on Cross Dressers. i mean, unless you're talking about dives where the people are mostly um, "professionals." those clubs are mostly Trans, and they are usually not so friendly.

so if you want to have "nice" Trans clubs which are not professional, you need to welcome Cross Dressers. places like Susan's are very helpful, but occasionally it is also helpful to talk to a real person.

Cross Dressers, though sometimes horny, are neither inferior nor stupid. they are, in my opinion, more friendly and honest than the general public at large. they are intelligent, fun-loving, have a good sense of humor, and are nice to have as friends.

-Ell

Lol it kinda sounds like you're calling me a prostitute

Quote from: Gracie FAISE on August 03, 2008, 01:18:39 PM

Quote from: Lisbeff's Elf on August 03, 2008, 03:10:07 AM
threads of this nature do not send a welcome message to Cross Dressers. on the contrary, these kinds of threads might just tend to drive Cross Dressers away, and make them feel inferior and stupid.

the Trans clubs that i have seen are absolutely dependent on Cross Dressers. i mean, unless you're talking about dives where the people are mostly um, "professionals." those clubs are mostly Trans, and they are usually not so friendly.

so if you want to have "nice" Trans clubs which are not professional, you need to welcome Cross Dressers. places like Susan's are very helpful, but occasionally it is also helpful to talk to a real person.

Cross Dressers, though sometimes horny, are neither inferior nor stupid. they are, in my opinion, more friendly and honest than the general public at large. they are intelligent, fun-loving, have a good sense of humor, and are nice to have as friends.

-Ell

Lol it kinda sounds like you're calling me a prostitute

well, i wasn't. why would you think that?

Quote from: Lisbeff's Elf on August 03, 2008, 01:33:50 PM

Quote from: Gracie FAISE on August 03, 2008, 01:18:39 PM

Quote from: Lisbeff's Elf on August 03, 2008, 03:10:07 AM
threads of this nature do not send a welcome message to Cross Dressers. on the contrary, these kinds of threads might just tend to drive Cross Dressers away, and make them feel inferior and stupid.

the Trans clubs that i have seen are absolutely dependent on Cross Dressers. i mean, unless you're talking about dives where the people are mostly um, "professionals." those clubs are mostly Trans, and they are usually not so friendly.

so if you want to have "nice" Trans clubs which are not professional, you need to welcome Cross Dressers. places like Susan's are very helpful, but occasionally it is also helpful to talk to a real person.

Cross Dressers, though sometimes horny, are neither inferior nor stupid. they are, in my opinion, more friendly and honest than the general public at large. they are intelligent, fun-loving, have a good sense of humor, and are nice to have as friends.

-Ell

Lol it kinda sounds like you're calling me a prostitute

well, i wasn't. why would you think that?

QuoteTrans clubs which are not professional, you need to welcome Cross Dressers.

Transsexual talk forum isn't really welcome to CDs and TVs. Are we all hookers?

It was a joke observation anyways, don't take it to heart. But in all honesty I really don't think any T club needs CDs and TVs in order for it not to look like a brothel. In all honesty I see more CDs and TVs giving it up than I do TSs.

Quote from: Beyond on August 03, 2008, 04:54:43 AM

Quote from: Lisbeff's Elf on August 03, 2008, 03:10:07 AMthreads of this nature do not send a welcome message to Cross Dressers. on the contrary, these kinds of threads might just tend to drive Cross Dressers away, and make them feel inferior and stupid.

I do not agree.  This is the "Transsexual Talk" section isn't it?  This is the only section I post in.  In the past I tried posting in some neutral areas and found that too confusing because different people have way different perspectives.  The result was I was often misinterpreted.  Out of respect I have never posted in the CD section.  I know their needs are different from mine and I would expect that they show us the same courtesy.

A BIG mega-forum like this can't please everybody.

If you subject us to the whims and feeling of everybody else here (Susan's) you might as well shut this whole place down.  We need the intellectual freedom and freedom to be ourselves if this place is to satisfy it's mission.

Neither is it welcoming to transsexuals like myself who want to be welcoming of all people.  I am one of a handful of people who was here ten years ago.  And in that ten years there have been various times when CDs have tried to push TSs away and TSs have tried to push CDs away.  Both of those are contrary to the reasons Susan created this place, and in my not-so-humble opinion, this kind of attitude does not belong at Susan's.  I've seen Susan put her foot down on it before, and I expect she will do so again.

<end rant>

Quote from: Lisbeff's Elf on August 03, 2008, 12:59:36 PM
but at the end of the day, when they are saying their prayers and asking forgiveness, do they admit that their words have hurt other human beings? that with their words, they have been spreading hate?

I do.

Quote from: Gracie FAISE on August 03, 2008, 01:46:49 PM

QuoteTrans clubs which are not professional, you need to welcome Cross Dressers.

Transsexual talk forum isn't really welcome to CDs and TVs. Are we all hookers?

It was a joke observation anyways, don't take it to heart. But in all honesty I really don't think any T club needs CDs and TVs in order for it not to look like a brothel. In all honesty I see more CDs and TVs giving it up than I do TSs.

i don't think it's proper procedure for you to change something i've said, re-word it, then put it in a quote, as if i had said it.

please change that.

-Ell

Quote from: Lisbeff's Elf on August 03, 2008, 01:59:32 PM

Quote from: Gracie FAISE on August 03, 2008, 01:46:49 PM

QuoteTrans clubs which are not professional, you need to welcome Cross Dressers.

Transsexual talk forum isn't really welcome to CDs and TVs. Are we all hookers?

It was a joke observation anyways, don't take it to heart. But in all honesty I really don't think any T club needs CDs and TVs in order for it not to look like a brothel. In all honesty I see more CDs and TVs giving it up than I do TSs.

i don't think it's proper procedure for you to change something i've said, re-word it, then put it in a quote, as if i had said it.

please change that.

-Ell

I didn't reword it, that was a direct copy/paste.

Quote from: Gracie FAISE on August 03, 2008, 02:02:15 PM
Transsexual talk forum isn't really welcome to CDs and TVs. Are we all hookers?

It was a joke observation anyways, don't take it to heart. But in all honesty I really don't think any T club needs CDs and TVs in order for it not to look like a brothel. In all honesty I see more CDs and TVs giving it up than I do TSs.

Quotei don't think it's proper procedure for you to change something i've said, re-word it, then put it in a quote, as if i had said it.

please change that.

-Ell

I didn't reword it, that was a direct copy/paste.
[/quote]

well, but you are taking it out of context.

Clubs that are primarily frequented by "professionals" means, if you're asking, that there are alot of Trans girls there who are trying to turn tricks. this statement has nothing to do with you! i wouldn't dare call you a hooker. why would i?

but i wanted to go to Trans clubs, especially earlier in my transition, to talk about bras and tucking, where to find shoes, etc., etc., and to make friends. these kinds of goals are difficult to achieve in a Trans club primarily used by Trans girls to turn tricks. so i go to other Trans clubs. and guess what? there are not enough Trans girls (who have regular jobs) who are interested in going to Trans clubs to keep those clubs viable. why? maybe they are in stealth, have already transitioned, and don't want to be associated with anything Trans, or a thousand and one other reasons.

-Ell

I dunno why you're bringing up night clubs. They have little to nothing to do with internet forums in the respects of their mechanics of drawing people to them. In this case, many stealth transwomen participate in trans forums.

btw, about night clubs. There is a reason those crossdressers are there too. Transsexuals aren't the only people that goto clubs lookin to set up shop

Quote from: Gracie FAISE on August 03, 2008, 05:21:32 PM
I dunno why you're bringing up night clubs. They have little to nothing to do with internet forums in the respects of their mechanics of drawing people to them. In this case, many stealth transwomen participate in trans forums.

btw, about night clubs. There is a reason those crossdressers are there too. Transsexuals aren't the only people that goto clubs lookin to set up shop

uh, the tone of this discussion sounds like i'm being told to shut my mouth here, and that my remarks are not needed. so...

As far as other people's perception of a TS vs a CD or whatever, I don't think they are more likely to see a TS as a woman than a CD.  If anything, the TS, to them, is the worst of the two.  So I can't see that being called "transgendered" instead of "transexual" would be an indication of less respect or understanding.  So whatever it is that bothers any of us for being called "transgender," I think it is coming from the inside, and not some perception of a more negative view taken of us by the speaker.

I think this whole discussion about TS v. every other group of gender variant peoples is disturbing because of the intolerance it shows on the part of some TS individuals. 

It displays a sex negative perspective that says "if you're about sexual pleasure, you're not quite as good as I am.  Where's I, the TS want to sit at home and knit doilies, like a real woman, you just want sexual thrills."  For some reason, (repressed sexuality perhaps?) that makes one group superior to the other.  As much as some may wish it, sexuality cannot be divorced from ->-bleeped-<-/transsexualism.  Despising one's genitals is an attitude towards sexuality.  How can one claim otherwise?

Whether or not transsexuality is a condition caused by genetics or in utero hormone washes is open to debate.  The claim that it's a result of those things is really a way to deny that one is of gay sexuality in my view.  Otherwise why would it be so necessary to exculpate oneself from suspicion?

Someone also mentioned restroom usage.  People who identify CD or TV are not entitled to use the women's ignoring the fact that a person dressed en femme places themselves at risk if they use the men's.  Why is restroom assignment so important?  The argument sound like what you'd expect from Focus on the Family.  Perhaps it would be more useful to focus on the things we have in common rather than those that devide us.