A Wiki search here doesn't include a definition for "behavior." Lacking that I would point out the below as possibly having some significance for everyone posting to this thread. Perhaps that way we can all stay on the same page without having to write new ones? Thank you.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
be·hav·ior      Audio Help   [bi-heyv-yer] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.   manner of behaving or acting.
2.   Psychology, Animal Behavior.
a.   observable activity in a human or animal.
b.   the aggregate of responses to internal and external stimuli.
c.   a stereotyped, species-specific activity, as a courtship dance or startle reflex.
3.   Often, behaviors. a behavior pattern.
4.   the action or reaction of any material under given circumstances: the behavior of tin under heat.
Also, especially British, behaviour.

[Origin: 1375–1425; behave + -ior (on model of havior, var. of havor < MF (h)avoir ≪ L habére to have); r. late ME behavoure, behaver. See behave, -or1]

—Related forms
be·hav·ior·al, adjective
be·hav·ior·al·ly, adverb

—Synonyms 1. demeanor, manners; bearing, carriage. Behavior, conduct, deportment, comportment refer to one's actions before or toward others, esp. on a particular occasion. Behavior refers to actions usually measured by commonly accepted standards: His behavior at the party was childish. Conduct refers to actions viewed collectively, esp. as measured by an ideal standard: Conduct is judged according to principles of ethics. Deportment is behavior related to a code or to an arbitrary standard: Deportment is guided by rules of etiquette. The teacher gave Susan a mark of B in deportment. Comportment is behavior as viewed from the standpoint of one's management of one's own actions: His comportment was marked by a quiet assurance.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

This little gem is from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_association

No one is forced to associate with another if they don't wish to. Something that also applies, I believe, to this board given Site Rules and the very convenient "Ignore" toggles placed for everyone's convenience on both member profiles and for topics and particular boards as well.

Please guys. Can we have differences of opinion without the need to get heated over them?

Thank you all.

Nichole

Quote from: Tasha Elizabeth on August 04, 2008, 02:03:25 PM
i suppose it is behavior in the same way that submitting to chemotherapy is behavioral, or getting a liver transplant is behavioral.  you can "behave" in a way that cures you -- or gives you a chance to live a "normal" life -- or you can die.

however, you are totally entitled to define yourself, and your own interpretation of transsexualism.  if you have already made up your mind that the treatment of transsexualism is behavioral, there is nothing i can say to change your mind.  nor would i wish to. 


edit:  ellie, i'm not trashing anyone by saying tekla and i are different.  i like tekla a lot, you know that.  we have different needs, so what?  so do you and i, for that matter.  i am talking EXPLICITLY about facility usage, which does not, in my opinion, dismiss a group as being unworthy, or make one group better than any other.

i dont feel that i was hostile at all, and if i came across that way, it was certainly not intentional.

I'm transsexual and a liver transplant patient.  There is no comparison between the two.  My transsexualism has never caused me to hemorrhage or vomit blood.  HRT is nothing at all like Rebetron therapy.  You don't like spiro?  You should try interferon injections. 

It is a behavior how one chooses to deal with ESLD as it is transsexualism.  There are things worse than death that can be done to you in a hospital or clinic.  We who have had chronic and life threatening illness know that regardless of treatment decisions we will never be "normal" again.  I will alway be a liver patient.  The operation changes my symptoms and therapy, it doesn't eliminate them. 

Quote from: Gracie FAISE on August 04, 2008, 02:05:09 PM
Where in this thread has anyone "trashed" or displayed hate towards CDs?

uh, how 'bout in the title of this thread?

Oh your reading it from the beginning, no fair.

Quote from: Lisbeff's Elf on August 04, 2008, 02:36:31 PM

Quote from: Gracie FAISE on August 04, 2008, 02:05:09 PM
Where in this thread has anyone "trashed" or displayed hate towards CDs?

uh, how 'bout in the title of this thread?

There are quite a few miles in the emotion spectrum that separates "rash" and "hate"

I am slightly peeved or lightly upset, not enraged with hate.

Quote from: Gracie FAISE on July 31, 2008, 09:29:42 PM
Okay so, I've been having a conflict in feelings lately. I've been having trouble sorting things out in my head, so if a few of my statements are contradictory, that is why. I don't know whether this belongs here or the edge too, so move it if necessary...


I dislike being considered as/grouped with non-transsexual transgendered people.
Basically: Cross dressers and ->-bleeped-<-s. I feel... demeaned or insulted when someone says "transgendered" when they mean "transsexualism." Now, I'm not saying I dislike them. I'm not stating any prejudices or trying to belittle them. I just don't like being told or described (whether directly, indirectly, knowingly, or unknowingly) as being on the same level as them.

I just feel that, even though we have similar struggles, I'm just from a completely different universe with all of it. It's a physiological thing for me, and to be called the same thing as someone who gender bends for sexual/recreational purposes makes me feel misunderstood and anguished and even a little upset/angry.

But the thing is is it makes me feel terrible that I have such negative, perhaps even grudgingly negative feelings towards people that seem so nice and friendly at my support groups. Why? I'm upset with the people that tell me I'm the same, not non-transsexual transgendered people themselves!

I do hold some sympathetic feelings for HBS views, and agree with some of their less discriminatory policies and goals. I don't know if these feelings are just the beginnings of some very aggressive feelings that I see in a lot of people that consider themselves HBSers or if they're just isolated frustrations/confusions I need to work out.



If I could hear others opinions about this maybe I could figure some stuff out about what I'm really feelings.

It might be nice if we went back to the original question and the tone the post ended with.  She asked for other opinions to help sort out her feelings.

Lets try to keep this civil.

Sarah L.

As with any "behavior" it only becomes "life-threatening" given an internal response and the ways one chooses to cope with the problem.

That transsexuality or cross-dressing or being a man or woman and others' reactions to the way any individual handles that and how that set of reactions and feelings are internalized by the person affected is what is life-threatening. Having a condition itself, unless it is liver-disease, a heart condition, diabetes, deviated septum, spina bifida, sickle-cell anemia, etc IS NOT life threatening.

That I may choose to cope with my transsexuality by committing suicide or someone else coping with it by murdering me isn't "caused" by the condition itself. It's caused by my reaction to the way I am or their reaction to the way I am.

Can we please agree to that much? Heck, I've lived with transsexuality for 56 years. I have almost committed suicide twice: once when I was ten and nearly succeeded and the other time a few years ago due to hatred expressed hatefully by another. The second time was ideation, not act. The act was precluded by talking about the desire and my pain with both my partner and my therapist on a Sunday night.

Both were results of ways I tried to cope, not of the fact of being transsexual.

Nichole

Quote from: Tasha Elizabeth on August 04, 2008, 02:50:11 PM

Quote from: Claire de Lune on August 04, 2008, 02:31:01 PM

Quote from: Tasha Elizabeth on August 04, 2008, 02:03:25 PM
i suppose it is behavior in the same way that submitting to chemotherapy is behavioral, or getting a liver transplant is behavioral.  you can "behave" in a way that cures you -- or gives you a chance to live a "normal" life -- or you can die.

however, you are totally entitled to define yourself, and your own interpretation of transsexualism.  if you have already made up your mind that the treatment of transsexualism is behavioral, there is nothing i can say to change your mind.  nor would i wish to. 


edit:  ellie, i'm not trashing anyone by saying tekla and i are different.  i like tekla a lot, you know that.  we have different needs, so what?  so do you and i, for that matter.  i am talking EXPLICITLY about facility usage, which does not, in my opinion, dismiss a group as being unworthy, or make one group better than any other.

i dont feel that i was hostile at all, and if i came across that way, it was certainly not intentional.

I'm transsexual and a liver transplant patient.  There is no comparison between the two.  My transsexualism has never caused me to hemorrhage or vomit blood.  HRT is nothing at all like Rebetron therapy.  You don't like spiro?  You should try interferon injections. 

It is a behavior how one chooses to deal with ESLD as it is transsexualism.  There are things worse than death that can be done to you in a hospital or clinic.  We who have had chronic and life threatening illness know that regardless of treatment decisions we will never be "normal" again.  I will alway be a liver patient.  The operation changes my symptoms and therapy, it doesn't eliminate them. 

i am guessing that you dont consider transexxualism life threatening.  my transexualism, however, as did many others here, resulted in numerous suicide attempts. 

the only thing that will "cure" me is transition.  it wont make me a "normal" natal female.  (which is why "normal" was quoted).  but it gives me a chance for some peace.

i do not agree that either having a liver transplant or hrt is behavioral.  i think it may be more properly termed as coercive.  it is only voluntary to an extent.

Liver transplants are a choice, in fact one needs to constantly prove they are worthy.  No one coerced me and I have no fear of death.  I know people that have chosen otherwise.  I did myself for awhile. 

Most people in the world live in misery all the time.  No one is forced to commit suicide.  That's a  choice.  A mad one, yes, but still a choice. One may not like living as they are but that doesn't mean suicide is their only option.

Quote from: Gracie FAISE on August 04, 2008, 02:43:42 PM

Quote from: Lisbeff's Elf on August 04, 2008, 02:36:31 PM

Quote from: Gracie FAISE on August 04, 2008, 02:05:09 PM
Where in this thread has anyone "trashed" or displayed hate towards CDs?

uh, how 'bout in the title of this thread?

There are quite a few miles in the emotion spectrum that separates "rash" and "hate"

I am slightly peeved or lightly upset, not enraged with hate.

ok. the facts that you are upset and peevish are duly noted.

when one is so young, as you are, anger searches for many points of exit and expression.
then, we sometimes say things that needlessly hurt the feelings of others.

later, (hopefully not too much later) we learn that protecting the feelings of others is one of the primary objectives of behaving well. it's not an easy thing to learn. you figure, not even the president has learned it.

-Ell

Quote from: Lisbeff's Elf on August 04, 2008, 03:33:32 PM

Quote from: Gracie FAISE on August 04, 2008, 02:43:42 PM

Quote from: Lisbeff's Elf on August 04, 2008, 02:36:31 PM

Quote from: Gracie FAISE on August 04, 2008, 02:05:09 PM
Where in this thread has anyone "trashed" or displayed hate towards CDs?

uh, how 'bout in the title of this thread?

There are quite a few miles in the emotion spectrum that separates "rash" and "hate"

I am slightly peeved or lightly upset, not enraged with hate.

ok. the facts that you are upset and peevish are duly noted.

when one is so young, as you are, anger searches for many points of exit and expression.
then, we sometimes say things that needlessly hurt the feelings of others.

later, (hopefully not too much later) we learn that protecting the feelings of others is one of the primary objectives of behaving well. it's not an easy thing to learn. you figure, not even the president has learned it.

-Ell

My youth has little to do with a lack of empathy I may or may not have.

I am highly aware of how others feel and how the things I say may affect them. But being able to empathize doesn't mean I'm no longer allowed to express how I feel. In my first post I think I did very well in expressing myself without stepping on anyones toes

That's enough sniping, I'd rather not lock the topic.

Sarah L.

As Gracie stated in her first post...

I'm just from a completely different universe with all of it

See Ell, some universes are geocentric - everything revolves around the earth.  Some are heliocentric, where it all revolves around the sun.  This universe seems to be to be egocentric, where everything revolves around one person.

Because that is the end result of any sort of separatist argument.  So when all the cdgqqqietc people move out, then I'm sure there will be problems with other people, they are on drugs (we've got that one already, despite the fact that any research into the field would show that TG persons of all stripes have rates of substance abuse and self medication far above the national average, which is sky high as it is - so the odds of NOT running into people at TS support groups who are not on drugs is almost astronomical) or with people who make more money, or with those who have none -- how demeaning would it be to be compared with a homeless person, or with a sex worker, or with someone who is asexual, or... and, on and on.  Because once you start down that path you get to a group of one pretty darn fast. 

After all, who is exactly just like you, or me, or Gracie? 

As the Gospel according to Money Python states:

    Brian: You are all individuals!
    Crowd: YES, YES, WE ARE ALL INDIVIDUALS!
    Brian: You are all different!
    Crowd: YES, WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT!
    Lone Voice: I'm not.
    Person next to him: SHH!

I agree with Sarah. If we could simply state our opinions about what Gracie asked about without taking personal offense to the way others feel or don't then the heat here could be reduced without her having to lock the topic to all.

Come on, folks, surely we can do that. Right?

N~

Quote from: Sarah Louise on August 04, 2008, 04:18:01 PM
That's enough sniping, I'd rather not lock the topic.

Sarah L.

I'd kind of rather you did.

Lisbeth

Quote from: tekla on August 04, 2008, 04:33:48 PM
As Gracie stated in her first post...

I'm just from a completely different universe with all of it

See Ell, some universes are geocentric - everything revolves around the earth.  Some are heliocentric, where it all revolves around the sun.  This universe seems to be to be egocentric, where everything revolves around one person.

Because that is the end result of any sort of separatist argument.  So when all the cdgqqqietc people move out, then I'm sure there will be problems with other people, they are on drugs (we've got that one already, despite the fact that any research into the field would show that TG persons of all stripes have rates of substance abuse and self medication far above the national average, which is sky high as it is - so the odds of NOT running into people at TS support groups who are not on drugs is almost astronomical) or with people who make more money, or with those who have none -- how demeaning would it be to be compared with a homeless person, or with a sex worker, or with someone who is asexual, or... and, on and on.  Because once you start down that path you get to a group of one pretty darn fast. 

After all, who is exactly just like you, or me, or Gracie? 

As the Gospel according to Money Python states:

    Brian: You are all individuals!
    Crowd: YES, YES, WE ARE ALL INDIVIDUALS!
    Brian: You are all different!
    Crowd: YES, WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT!
    Lone Voice: I'm not.
    Person next to him: SHH!

*nods, sadly*

the politics of exclusion begin even before the grass-roots level.

on the playground...

-Ell

Quote from: tekla on August 04, 2008, 04:33:48 PM
Because once you start down that path you get to a group of one pretty darn fast. 

You only have to divide the world's population 33 times to get to groups of one.

Lisbeth

Math wise, in terms of interpersonal relationships it gets there even faster.

Back up to the original post.

Quote from: Gracie FAISE on July 31, 2008, 09:29:42 PM

I just feel that, even though we have similar struggles, I'm just from a completely different universe with all of it. It's a physiological thing for me, and to be called the same thing as someone who gender bends for sexual/recreational purposes makes me feel misunderstood and anguished and even a little upset/angry.

For a lot of CDs it is also Physiological, they react differently to the same stress/preasure.

For me I called myself a CD for a long time but now I am being accepted as a TS. I could just as well live between the genders and live as a CD, working as Male. There is no black/white here, we live with the same problem. It takes many years for a CD to come out to herself wondering if she is in fact TS, some go through a period of depression like any TS person. They come out of that period happy to live two different lives, half male and half female. As I said to one of my therapst just recenty, if I stop HRT I get rid of Alice. To me, the CD person accept they have two different personalities and get on with their lives, they are stronger in that regard then me.

CDs are human and face many of to social stigmas TS people face, they hid from their wives cause they are embarised and affraid of lossing their marridge. And Gracie has said they do it for sexual/recreational resons (a stigma) but when you look closly at them you will relised they cross dress for the same reason others have become TS (they need to identify with their female side).

Alice

Quote from: Alice on August 04, 2008, 08:52:39 PM
For a lot of CDs it is also Physiological, they react differently to the same stress/preasure.

For me I called myself a CD for a long time but now I am being accepted as a TS. I could just as well live between the genders and live as a CD, working as Male. There is no black/white here, we live with the same problem.

Thanks for saying this Alice! I believe that it's a continuum, that we're all dealing with some level of gender dysphoria, some more intensely. Once upon a time, I cross dressed occasionally, then I realized I was TS and transitioned. Then I was androgyne and managed to live between genders for years. Now, I don't really know what I am except that I need to move forward again... It's always been the same issue, I've dealt with it in different ways at different times and circumstances.

I cannot discriminate against anyone, CD, drag queen, genderqueer, HBS, heterosexual cisgenders, etc... We're all sisters/brothers, if even one of us doesn't have her equal rights, then what good are they for the rest of us.

Zythyra

Someone here, I forget whom, said that TVs crossdress for fetishistic purposes, while CDs crossdress for other reasons.  Long ago, I heard that the crossdressing, for TVs, is purely a fetish for the clothing itself, and they do not think of themselves as women at all, not even while presenting as women.  That was some of the information that led me to realize that I was not "just a crossdesser" as I had thought in my teenage years (just=purely, not merely).  But I thought then that crossdressers and ->-bleeped-<-s were the same thing.  I'm still not sure that I have all of the information.  Are CDs really part time transexuals?

Looking at wikipedia, the term "crossdresser" is rather undefined.  It seems that it can include anyone who crossdresses but who does not want to change their body medically and does not do it as an impersonation, acting role, masquerade or the like.  Seems like it is a catch all category that covers fetishistic ->-bleeped-<-s and people who identify as the other gender but do not plan to transition medically.  There is the statement that crossdressers may not identify as the other gender, but not that they do not identify as the other gender.  So maybe some of the contention lies in that the term "crossdresser" is not specific enough, and when one person hears it they think part-time, non-op TS, while another thinks fetishistic ->-bleeped-<-.

Still, there is an obvious prejudice against the fetishistic ->-bleeped-<-s, even among many CDs.  But the important thing is for each of us to confront our own prejudices and conquer and/or compensate as best we can.  In time, bridges can be built, but it takes regular exposure to the persons against whom the prejudice is held.