In this topic, I am addressing MTFs since I don't personally know any FTMs, but they can join in.

Now many of us know that a transsexual physically has a female brain in a male body (or vise versa).  But, many TS also have other attributes that ressemble the sex opposite to that they were born with.  For instance, there is the 2D:4D Test where you compare the length of the index and ring fingers.  On most males, the ring finger is longer, but on GGs and TS, it is almost always the same length or shorter.  Many TS have other feminine features around their body including small hands, shorter height, feminine facial features, gynecomastia, smaller than average genitals, feminine arms, hips, lack of body hair, etc.  Additionally, I have known some TS (including myself) that have had some hormonal abnormalities where the body slowed way down on testosterone production.  Also, some will look younger than their age, but this is due usually to the feminine body features.

So back to the original question: Could being transsexual be a minor or limited form of being intersexed?

Melissa

Technically Melissa, this is in effect a very serious question, though I've never seen it defined the way you describe it in medical literature I've been through.

Typically an IS person is described as having abnormalties with sexual organs, but what you say does make a lot of sense.  I have always noticed that my hieght/weight and bone size were always somewhat smaller then average, and I have always looked some years younger then my actual age ..... and let's leave the mental problems alone for right now.

It would take some discussion with a doctor in the field of genetic sexuality/gender to really sort it out, but in my belief, you are somewhat correct in your assumption.

Terri

If you go by literal definition of each word Transsexual in itself means "TRANSitioning OR TRANSforming" into another sex wether it be MtF or FtM.

Whereas Intersexed means: simply between sexes or of both. this implies no movment towards either sex.

However if you do not take into account the literal definition of these words Then I can see through your points where Transsexualism could be a minor form of being Intersexed but now that raises this question if a person such as myself has no desire to fully transition over to the female sex does that make me Intersexed? even though I am transition to a female in the mental sense and altering my physical appearance by acquiring secondary female sexual characteristics.
But have no desire for SRS
Where am I Intersexed,Transsexual or both good question what do you think?
love the thread Melissa!

Somewhere between start & finish
CHYNNA

Hi Chynna,

I meant before even beginning transition.  What you do to alter yourself doesn't count.  I was referring to what you are born with.

This is meant to be more of a discussion thread to compare notes, rather than seeking a definite answer.

Melissa

oops...misunderstood. 

Quote from: Melissa on June 01, 2006, 01:12:48 PM
So back to the original question: Could being transsexual be a minor or limited form of being intersexed?

I'd think so. "Intersex" normally refers to physical abnormalities of course, but if we assume that TSism has a biological foundation, then both physical AND emotional deviances would be consequences of a hormonal/chromosomal imbalance. And I'd say that anyone who manifests consequences (physical or emotional) from an inherent hormonal/chromosomal imbalance is intersexed.

There's a wide range though... there are feminine-looking men who are perfectly happy in their male identities, and marine drill sergeants who desperately want to become the women they feel they are.

I'm a bundle of contradictions myself, being very tall.. and my ring fingers are slightly longer. And yet, I swear my pelvis is wide enough to pass a baby, and my overall physique is very non-muscular.

That's correct Kate.  Not everyone has all of these attributes, but usually some more or less to a degree.  I know there are some poeple without any of these or perhaps just too few of things to be noticable, and therefore they may not be IS at all. 

There are people with quite a few of these features who don't identify as TS and I often wonder if they are just in denial.  For instance, I have noticed my Boss at work has some of these attributes, but seems content being male.  I wonder what his reaction will be when I come out.  That will be interesting.

Melissa

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Personally I think being TS means you were living in the wrong gender and then you travel (transition) to be in the rigth one.

And being IS refers more to abnormalities in the body structure, genitals or a weird endocrin behavior.

So an IS person could also be TS or not.

Given that nobody really knows your brain structure until you're dead and they dissect it, it makes sense to me that we could be intersexed to a degree that has affected some body structures and not others. Just because they're not as visible as genital abnormalities or other physical characteristics doesn't make them any less real.

I have the male index finger pattern as well and apparently male thought patterns.

Dennis

Quote from: Dersi on June 01, 2006, 05:24:46 PM
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Personally I think being TS means you were living in the wrong gender and then you travel (transition) to be in the rigth one.

And being IS refers more to abnormalities in the body structure, genitals or a weird endocrin behavior.

So an IS person could also be TS or not.

That's my point.  Many people who identify as transsexuals also have some body abnormalities, but not to as severe of a degree as somebody who identifies as IS.

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on June 01, 2006, 06:23:55 PM
That's my point.  Many people who identify as transsexuals also have some body abnormalities, but not to as severe of a degree as somebody who identifies as IS.

Melissa

That be me.

I can not resist this thread.

Maybe I am intersex as I do have feminine feature. Everyone comments that I have a very feminine walk when in my skirts. And I evern heard that before I identified myself as a CD such as the cross dressing night I when I was in affrica. That was where my original picture was taken if people can remember what I looked like. So I would say I have feminine fatures.

Alice

Melissa,

This is a very fascinating point that you're making.  I've also noticed that Jocelyn, despite having not started hormone therapy is extremely feminine looking.  I'm a small girl (5 feet) and Joss is only a couple inches taller than me so that would still make her short to average even for a girl. We wear the same clothing sizes, we wear the same ring size, not quite the same shoe size, but you get the picture. Even when she's in boy clothes she still gets mistaken for a girl (much to her delight!) Your description was nearly dead on, and it's really got me curious now. Kudos on giving me food for thought!

Melissa,

I have never really considered it in terms of being "intersexed", although I have considered many of the things that you are talking about. Even when I participated in athletics, like wrestling, or football where there was vigerous physical workouts, and even in adulthood when I spent time in the gym, or my very physical job, being an electrician, I have never had any muscle definition. No bicept lines, no viens in my hands or forearms that protrude.

I have a very girly bubble butt and much of my overweight, weight, is on my rear and hips, much like a woman.  I have looked younger than my age since my late 20's and still do.  My avatar is not retouched, all I did was resize it. I have an illness that is primarily a woman's illness, fibromyalgia, with 90% of those afflicted with it, being women. I have always been the physically weakest and slowest of every male peer group I have ever been with.

While I have considered that transsexuality may be a brain developement issue, as there seems to be at least some anecdotal evidence to this effect, I never really considered it to be IS, but what else could it be? Is not IS the physical manifestation of both of the physical sexes?

Great post!!!  Gives me plenty to think about.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Hi Elizabeth.  My wife had fibromyalgia.  Somehow it mysteriously went away after about 10 years.  I have a problem with sciatica when my body gets too fatigued, which is also primarily a female affliction.  I hadn't really thought of that for a while.

Melissa

Hi Melissa,
        Although I'm an S.O., I find this a very interesting thread!  Marco and I have had several discussions about this very thing.  He's not home right now, so I don't think he'll mind me posting on his behalf.  At first, he would bring up to me the possibility of him being intersexed or being genetically different from a GG.  And I would kind of play devil's advocate and tell him what I knew about genetics and didn't realize what I was doing until he brought it to my attention.  It really upset him that I didn't seem to give this possibility a chance.  I realized that it was really insensitive of me to do this and I started to ponder the possibility.  After further discussions, we both agreed that this was a huge possibility.  Marco definitely has a male brain.  In every sense of the word.  There is nothing feminine about him.  Even when he was trying to live his life as a woman, he still looked masculine.  I think someone mentioned earlier, their walk.  Marco has a very distinctive, masculine, walk.  He's not even back on testosterone yet and his beard growth has really picked up lately.  There are other things about him too that are apparent during our "intimate times" that are definitely masculine.  I don't want to get too personal on that subject.  But I would say that with no testosterone or SRS to this point...he's ALL man!

Pam

Interesting topic. I was kind of trying to figure out the difference betwwen the two when I first started here and saw the titles. I still can't see the difference between TS and inter-sex myself. Myself, once I opened to myself and my wife realized the female characteristics and traits I have, as does my wife. However, one thing my wife has noted is lack of body hair, even before I started shaving. As well, she noticed that for some inexplicable reason, once I 'came out' that my breasts have slowly started developing or growing on their own without being on HRT. Please don't ask me to explain that one, just the 8th wonder of the world I guess. This is why I can't see a difference between the two, just society wanting to make some new titles I guess!!

Hi Kim, sounds like were in the same boat, since I had the same thing happen with my breasts.  I also had a feminine structure to begin with.  This is also one of the reasons I started the topic.

Generally, the differences between being TS are that with TS, your body is 100% male and you brain is female.  With intersexed condition, you generally have features that are exclusive to both sexes (before transition).  Generally the most obvious is ambiguous genitals or mixed chromosomes.  However, I am theorizing that they may not quite be as different as they are made out to be.  I am also now thinking that there are 2 groups.  IS transsexuals and regular transsexuals.  The regular transsexuals, who seem to be more rare, generally look extremely male with their body and an ISTS, has a much more feminized body to begin with.  I could pass as female before transition even started.  That's how much I had going for me to begin with.  I have a facial bone structure extremely similar to a genetic female, but a slightly bigger head.  I would say that the responses from everyone has solidified my theory even more.  If we can prove that there is a relationship between the 2, we'll accomplish 2 things:

1. We'll understand why the brain is physically structured like a female.
2. This would make much more concrete evidence for showing that this is a physical rather than mental and possibly have fewer skeptics.

I may eventually do this, but I like to at least put my theories out there and see how they develop.

Melissa

I don't think so.  As far as I am concerned,  intersexed people are born with both ovarian and testicular tissue; also,  some intersexed people are born with an abnormal chromosomal makeup such as XO and XXY.  Moreover, most iintersexed people are born with ambigous genitalia, and others are born with genitals that don't match their internal reproductive organs or their chromosomes.
A transsexual person, on the other hand, is someone whose body does not match their own inner conviction of who they are.  Their chromosomes always match their natal sex and there isn't any ambiguity on the appearance of their genitals or internal reproductive organs.  If someone has any new information about this, please let me know.

tinkerbell

P.S.  I had a karyotype test a while back just to make sure, and I also know many people who have had it done.  Well...the results were pretty obvious, my chromosomes matched my birth sex, XY . and so far I have not met or read about any transsexual whose chromosomes don't match their natal sex.  But like every mistery out there, it could be possible if you think about it...an extremely mild (almost non-existent) form of intersexuality.

Tinkerbell,  Maybe intersexed isn't the right word, but for some transsexuals, it's a little more complicated than just having a female brain in a male body.
Yes, genitals and chromosomes are the indications of real IS.
Maybe Melissa is using the word intersexed because there's no word to differentiate between a transsexual whose body exhibits outward signs (even though subtle) of her/his condition and a transsexual whose body is more typical of their birth sex.
Isn't it odd that many MtFs report experiencing a delayed puberty? Slighter builds, minor breast development before estrogen, very little muscle development, etc.

I would venture to say that if transsexuality is caused by hormonal changes in utero, it also could cause some outward symptoms of the condition.
So, yes there could be varying degrees of IS or some transsexuals just have mixed bodies.
Male genitals, female build and breast development.