I should add to all of this that I seem to have broken through a lot of my ambivalence. The possible breakthrough that I mentioned earlier seems to have been significant. I have made progress this week. A lot of progress.

Whew!

And thank you, thank you, THANK YOU for the support, guys. I sure as heck needed it, whether or not I was willing to acknowledge it.

Quote from: Arch on August 20, 2008, 06:36:20 PM

Quote from: Mister on August 20, 2008, 05:52:57 PM
FWIW, nothing of a sexual nature came up in my therapy and isn't really relevant.  A transman fantasizing about being penetrated vaginally isn't a contraindication to GID, so why bring it up at all?

I'd say that the need to talk about this stuff probably varies from person to person. My situation is complicated by the fact that I AM gay, and that made it so hard for me to understand myself when I was growing up. I mean, I could easily have been a straight female. After all, I liked guys...and maybe the tomboy thing really was just a phase. Maybe?

None of which could plausibly explain why I was so frantic (almost to the point of tears) to play the male lead in the class play in first grade or why I could never forgive my mother for throwing out my favorite shirt (a hand-me-down from my brother) when I was seven or eight, or why I just plain hated myself for years and years.

I was brought up in a much less progressive and accepting era than that of most guys who are posting here these days, I was brought up in a military family (traditional!!! conservative!!!), and I further gather (from observation of other families) that my mother was ultra-straitlaced, even by military family standards. Certainly she had mental issues of her own that were never addressed and never talked about. It's no wonder I was a screwed-up kid and young adult.

For me, sex and gender are intimately tied up with each other, and I still feel some guilt and shame about it all. I not only want to talk about it, I NEED to talk about it. To sort it all out and figure out who I am. And where I want to go. So that's what I'm gonna do.

Then talk away.  I was saying it shouldn't be required or necessary for the therapist to ask.  But if you want to dissect your fantasties and sexuality and such, have at it.  Oh, and if you run across one of the lame therapists who claim that gay transmen do not exist (there are some, believe me. the DSM lists homosexuality as one of the diagnostic criteria for GID), bring up Lou Sullivan.  He was a gay FTM activist who routinely showed up at offices of such disbelievers to attempt to debunk their theories, as well as many other things.

Quote from: Mister on August 20, 2008, 06:54:28 PM
Oh, and if you run across one of the lame therapists who claim that gay transmen do not exist (there are some, believe me. the DSM lists homosexuality as one of the diagnostic criteria for GID), bring up Lou Sullivan.  He was a gay FTM activist who routinely showed up at offices of such disbelievers to attempt to debunk their theories, as well as many other things.

Cover your ears, Mister.

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTT???!!!!!!

Are you sh*tting me? There are still dinosaurs who deny the existence of gay transmen? What planet are these people on?

Hm. I haven't actually read the DSM on this. When you say that the DSM lists homosexuality as a criterion, do you mean that the pre-transition FTM client/patient is supposed to be attracted to "other" women and the pre-transition MTF people are supposed to be attracted to "other" men? I didn't know that. I wish they would depathologize the whole thing already, anyway.

Yeah, I love Lou Sullivan (never met him, but I look up to him as a true pioneer for folks like me). Thanks for reminding me.

Quote from: Arch on August 20, 2008, 07:02:23 PM

Quote from: Mister on August 20, 2008, 06:54:28 PM
Oh, and if you run across one of the lame therapists who claim that gay transmen do not exist (there are some, believe me. the DSM lists homosexuality as one of the diagnostic criteria for GID), bring up Lou Sullivan.  He was a gay FTM activist who routinely showed up at offices of such disbelievers to attempt to debunk their theories, as well as many other things.

Cover your ears, Mister.

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTT???!!!!!!

Are you sh*tting me? There are still dinosaurs who deny the existence of gay transmen? What planet are these people on?

Hm. I haven't actually read the DSM on this. When you say that the DSM lists homosexuality as a criterion, do you mean that the pre-transition FTM client/patient is supposed to be attracted to "other" women and the pre-transition MTF people are supposed to be attracted to "other" men? I didn't know that. I wish they would depathologize the whole thing already, anyway.

Yeah, I love Lou Sullivan (never met him, but I look up to him as a true pioneer for folks like me). Thanks for reminding me.

For sure.  I'm not sure where you're located, but they exist.  Frightening, ain't it?

You hit the homosexuality bit on the nose- a criteria for transmen is lesbian-identification and the opposite for transwomen.

uh I don't feel like making a new thread about this since there is already...sort of a thread. Hope you don't mind Arch.

I got an appointment with a therapist relatively quickly (like....I called Friday and got an appointment this Monday). They're close to my house, they had an opening....so of course my first thoughts are "ok, what's the catch?"

Unfortunately my new therapist....is not technically a GID specialist. And by not technically I mean, she said she's dealt with sexuality in the past before but it's not her area of occupational expertise.

*Huge Sigh* Talk about feeling like you're going nowhere. The thing is though, I wouldn't go back to my old therapist if you paid me. She was great a lot of the time, but I never fully trusted her, I still don't, and sometimes she gave me reason not to so I've told her quite a few lies and I can't get a new slate. Then she'll just peg me as a liar even if I try to change.

Then ohhh then there's this new therapist. I seriously hoped I was talking to an incompetent secretary on the phone when I was making the appointment for Monday because:

1) she wasn't really answering my questions about whether or not the insurance would cover it,

2) she wouldn't let me tell her WHY I wanted the appointment until AFTER I gave her all my information (which is just stupid especially since it turns out she's not technically a GID therapist and that's what I was looking for),

3)When I told her I was looking for someone who specializes in GID she asked "Gastro Intestinal...?" ugh. Clearly I know I have the number for a therapist why the HELL would I be looking for a colon doctor with a therapist's phone number. It makes me wonder "do you even KNOW what Gender Identity Disorder is??"

4) I feel like she's had more experience with sexuality than GID and she would turn all my sessions into "but you don't know your sexuality so how do you know you're a boy" like my last therapist did, except it would be 24/7.... And I feel like sexuality is only a very small part of being trans. I neeeeeeed someone who understands that I need to talk about my gender, NOT my sexuality. I'm very comfortable in my sexuality. But I NEEEEEED to talk about my gender.

5) It turns out I WAS talking to my future therapist on the phone and she was referring to herself in third person the whole time, AS THOUGH she were a secretary talking to a patient about the therapist. You're a little crazy, lady. Why didn't you just tell me it was you on the phone.



So I'm very frustrated about this whole situation right now because I get to start a relatively clean slate with someone but just one conversation with her on the phone makes me feel like she's incompetent, which then makes me feel like I don't think I can trust her.... I want to be able to trust someone because I WANT help so badly.....

Ugh I need help trusting people. Who knows, she may turn out to be more help than I'm thinking and I may be able to actually trust her but all this doubt is making me want to go in on Monday with guarded emotions....

Quote from: trapthavok on August 23, 2008, 09:09:57 PM
uh I don't feel like making a new thread about this since there is already...sort of a thread. Hope you don't mind Arch.

Hell, no. I don't mind at all. (I can see it now: Yo, dude, yer pissin' in my yard. War! WAAAAR!!!! Okay, enough empty posturing. That's not my style at all. Welcome to the thread; it's very nearly dead, and you are reviving it.)

This seems like a very weird situation. I can see why you have reservations. Since you made the appointment, you might as well take the opportunity to suss her out, but if she doesn't even know what GID is....well, that doesn't sound promising AT ALL.

And the whole third-person thing sounds extremely weird to me. I'm with you. Why not just answer the phone as herself?

I'm not quite sure why you called her in the first place, though. Not to attack you, but did you get a faulty reference or something? Isn't there a specialist anywhere near you?

Whether you can trust her is one issue, but I'm more concerned that she is not qualified to aid you in your travels. If she doesn't specialize in GID, then I don't think she is.

I'd like to hear what others have to say about this.

I know what you mean about wanting help--I feel the same way, but get me into the chair and I'm my own worst enemy. Sheesh.

Quote from: Arch on August 23, 2008, 09:59:42 PM
I'm not quite sure why you called her in the first place, though. Not to attack you, but did you get a faulty reference or something? Isn't there a specialist anywhere near you?

ARRRGHHHHH I called the g@% damned insurance company and asked for a GID reference that they would cover, and they gave me her name and number. So I THOUGHT based on the insurance company's referral, this was a doctor who specialized in GID. It's going to be hard finding specialists near me though because many of the therapists I find in online searches aren't in the same county...it's quite a drive getting around where I live, let alone trying to drive OUTSIDE of where I live. I know I told people before that if possible they should seek help even if it's a drive, but it's REALLY a drive here (idiot drivers...) and I want someone I could hope to see with some regularity without having to worry "will I need 1 or 2 hours to drive to get there today...is it raining? god then I'll need 3..." when in a normal city, you could probably get in and out no problem.

No worries about attacking me lol you had a valid question, I don't feel attacked.

Quote from: Arch on August 23, 2008, 09:59:42 PM
This seems like a very weird situation. I can see why you have reservations. Since you made the appointment, you might as well take the opportunity to suss her out, but if she doesn't even know what GID is....well, that doesn't sound promising AT ALL.

And the whole third-person thing sounds extremely weird to me. I'm with you. Why not just answer the phone as herself?

Whether you can trust her is one issue, but I'm more concerned that she is not qualified to aid you in your travels. If she doesn't specialize in GID, then I don't think she is.

She already weirds me out, definitely. I'll probably just go see her this one time and never see her again. I REALLY need a GID specialist, not someone who "thinks they may be able to help me regardless" just because she wants my copay.

I'm very concerned about her credentials myself. What if 5 months from now I want/am ready for my letter and she's just not qualified to give it to me? Then I'll have wasted 5 months and will have to start all over again, that's what. I need someone who can help me with EVERYTHING GID not just "oh hey lets figure out the sexuality you already know." I like boobs. But not on me. Eff off lady.

Sounds like you need to go back to the insurance people and try again?

You know, the more I read about other guys and their difficulty just in FINDING a qualified therapist within decent driving distance, the more fortunate I feel to live so close to mine. He's less than ten miles away, right in the gay part of town where I feel pretty comfortable. It's maybe a fifteen-minute drive, plus time to scout around for a parking space.

Wow. Something else to feel good about. I should add that to my other thread.

Anyway, I've got my fingers crossed for you, Nate. Let us know what happens with this therapist and with the insurance guys. I hope you don't wind up with one of those insane drives that you talked about. You might as well be in Outer Mongolia from the sound of it.

Quote from: Arch on August 23, 2008, 10:38:23 PM
Sounds like you need to go back to the insurance people and try again?

Yeah I'm calling them monday BEFORE my appointment. This is not acceptable.

Quote from: Arch on August 23, 2008, 10:38:23 PM
I hope you don't wind up with one of those insane drives that you talked about. You might as well be in Outer Mongolia from the sound of it.

Me too. LOL at outer Mongolia.... People just really suck at driving here ON TOP OF the fact that there's a crapload of us living here so the overcrowding causes daily traffic outside the city, in the city, you name it.

My school for example is about a 15 - 20 minute drive. If there's no such thing as traffic. When school's in session however I need to give myself a good 35-40 minutes to get there, which is effing ridiculous. My current therapist? Tch she's in the part of town that's KNOWN for the worst drivers. So close to my school and would probably take 5-10 minutes to get there without all the people living here, but instead it takes me 20 minutes to get there because there's always people on the road. Just trying to get around here is ridiculous.

Quote from: Mister on August 20, 2008, 05:52:57 PM
FWIW, nothing of a sexual nature came up in my therapy and isn't really relevant.  A transman fantasizing about being penetrated vaginally isn't a contraindication to GID, so why bring it up at all?

It's kind of silly, but this remark still sort of bothers me because it isn't accurate. I don't have such fantasies. I'm not ragging on you--I don't expect you to be psychic--but I just have to set the record straight.

The fantasies I do have are completely tied up in my identity issues, and they have nothing to do with vaginas. ("Not that there's anything wrong with that...")

Quote from: Arch on August 26, 2008, 04:55:25 PM

Quote from: Mister on August 20, 2008, 05:52:57 PM
FWIW, nothing of a sexual nature came up in my therapy and isn't really relevant.  A transman fantasizing about being penetrated vaginally isn't a contraindication to GID, so why bring it up at all?

It's kind of silly, but this remark still sort of bothers me because it isn't accurate. I don't have such fantasies. I'm not ragging on you--I don't expect you to be psychic--but I just have to set the record straight.

The fantasies I do have are completely tied up in my identity issues, and they have nothing to do with vaginas. ("Not that there's anything wrong with that...")

Congratulations?  :oP

Quote from: Mister on August 26, 2008, 05:06:52 PM
Congratulations?  :oP

Boyo, now you've really got me confused. I was just imparting information.

Perhaps I did it...poorly. (Hope you're an Indiana Jones fan; otherwise, you will not get that reference!)

I can totally understand that question mark, now that I think about it.

If a transguy fantasizes about vaginal penetration... what's stopping him from doing it? :/

Quote from: Elwood on August 26, 2008, 06:00:34 PM
If a transguy fantasizes about vaginal penetration... what's stopping him from doing it? :/

Um, I'm not sure what you mean by "it." What's stopping him from continuing to fantasize, or what's stopping him from having vaginal sex?

I guess if I parse your sentence correctly, you must mean the latter. What's preventing him from going through with the act.

Well, I guess it would be the same thing that has so far prevented me from acting on my fantasies of anal sex. Fear, inhibition, lack of concrete knowledge about the experience. I mean, I've done anal a few times, but I wouldn't consider myself knowledgeable.

So on the vag side, much of the same. Only I guess it would also make a difference if the transguy hasn't had that kind of sex before at all. And if he sees it as a female way of having sex, which I gather that a lot of transguys do.

And there's a sort of psycho-biological response that's hard to control. When I was much younger, I wanted to have sex this way and had had it a few times with different guys--I guess I was looking for something--but when I got with a long-term boyfriend and got past the first few ->-bleeped-<-s, I started going through these attacks of...call it frigidity...when the whole thing just felt WRONG somehow and I didn't want to be penetrated there, so I clenched up and it hurt like hell and I couldn't go through with it. But I still had fantasies about successful vag sex. Or, well, more like images and stuff.

I never really understood those "attacks" till very recently. I think I was okay with front-door sex as long as I was bouncing around from guy to guy and basically experimenting, but when I settled down with one fella and saw that this was going to be my sex life from then on, something kinda snapped. And I didn't really make an explicit connection, but that kind of sex wasn't exactly compatible with my longstanding sexual fantasies, which were man on man and had been for years...ever since I started having sexual fantasies, in fact.

I dunno, does that give you any insights at all?

Hmn. I guess I just will never get it. I don't think I'd ever be able to have vaginal sex. It's a part I shouldn't have. It "doesn't compute."

Quote from: Elwood on August 26, 2008, 06:34:05 PM
Hmn. I guess I just will never get it. I don't think I'd ever be able to have vaginal sex. It's a part I shouldn't have. It "doesn't compute."

Well, you have your own self image, that's for sure, and you have to work with that. But we are definitely coming from different places here. You've identified yourself as male before getting into sexual relationships. I didn't have that opportunity, so I didn't seriously entertain the notion that I might be a guy in the wrong body, regardless of what my imagination was conveying to me.

I will say this, though. When I first came out as FTM--that is, as a woman who WANTED to become a man--and from then on--I started having reservations about sex again. A lot of times I didn't even want to do it because it was incompatible with my image of myself. I mean, once I made the leap of identifying myself as transgender and started putting that together with my fantasy life, I had a hard time with the sex angle. I'm sure that graduate school had a dampening effect on my sex drive, but so did this other stuff, in spades. That's sorta similar to where you're coming from...sorta.

Now I feel as if I've got my mojo back--no, it's more like a mojo that I've never even had before. Feels great! And I hope it gets even better once I get over some of the last remaining hurdles.

It's possible for some transguys to be okay with front-door sex, but I can completely see why it's kinda foreign to you. It's possible that if you'd been in a situation similar to mine, that would be different. But there's no way to know, and I certainly don't recommend that you force yourself to experience it. "A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do." In your case, maybe it's more like you've gotta NOT do what you don't want to do.

Despite all of the obstacles that you're facing, I consider you fortunate to be figuring out all of this stuff so early in your life. My life is what it is, and I have to live with the choices that I've made and the resources that were available to me. Don't get me wrong; I have a lot of great life experience, and I have had some adventures. But sometimes I envy you younger guys a little bit. Usually, though, I'm just glad that you don't have to live in the world that I came from.

 I just talked to a therapist at my college(so its free which is great), and she actually knows the doctor that will do the hysterectomy. And shes cool, but at first when I saw her I was nervous, because of her apperance, she looked so uptight and rightoues. But around the end of our session, she said she was suited to be my therapist because she is very infomed in glbt issues, and she was a lesbian( which was really suprising) But as first time experience, I love therapy. I get to talk about my ideals and philosophy and someone HAS to sit there and listen. Its great. And she said shell write a letter down the road cause she wants to get to know me(she must like my great thoughts...)

And...um...since you guys were talkin about vaginal sex, maybe I felt this way from a young age, but I could never understand how or why people would ever want to do that. I mean I always wondered why straight women would want to even have sex. I used to ask my mom all the time how the hell did she enjoy that, and she would answer with randomness, so then I would ask "how bout you just shoot yourself in the arm, and put your finger in it. According to you, that feels good.." Man, I was a disresptful kid...

Quote from: Jack Daniels on August 27, 2008, 01:39:17 AM
I just talked to a therapist at my college(so its free which is great), and she actually knows the doctor that will do the hysterectomy. And shes cool, but at first when I saw her I was nervous, because of her apperance, she looked so uptight and rightoues. But around the end of our session, she said she was suited to be my therapist because she is very infomed in glbt issues, and she was a lesbian( which was really suprising) But as first time experience, I love therapy. I get to talk about my ideals and philosophy and someone HAS to sit there and listen. Its great. And she said shell write a letter down the road cause she wants to get to know me(she must like my great thoughts...)

And...um...since you guys were talkin about vaginal sex, maybe I felt this way from a young age, but I could never understand how or why people would ever want to do that. I mean I always wondered why straight women would want to even have sex. I used to ask my mom all the time how the hell did she enjoy that, and she would answer with randomness, so then I would ask "how bout you just shoot yourself in the arm, and put your finger in it. According to you, that feels good.." Man, I was a disresptful kid...

Great news on the therapist, Jack. I'm still getting used to talking...sometimes I talk freely, sometimes I grope around and stammer. Which is very annoying, because normally I don't have a stammer, and normally I'm quite articulate. And I don't like to come across as scared...but that's my own hangup, nothing to do with my therapist, who is awesome.

Re your second paragraph, I always used to wonder what men saw in women--in fact, I sometimes still do. This view made it rather difficult for me to like myself and have any kind of self-confidence because I was female-bodied. What could anybody possibly see in ME?

Funny you could talk about anything sexual with your mum. Sex was not a topic of discussion in my parents' house. Ever.

So youre parents were those types of parents... but werent you sexually active? I never was so I talked about sex alot and made fun of girls who enjoyed sex(which now I realize is kind of sexist), and I would make fun of my mom on a daily basis. She just kept saying "youll understand one day", but now Im an adult and I still dont understand how in the hell people enjoy that? But you wonder whats good about a females' body?

Quote from: Jack Daniels on August 27, 2008, 02:49:08 PM
So youre parents were those types of parents... but werent you sexually active?

I had my first real sexual experience when I was eighteen. And a half. I was in college. I was still living at home at the time--didn't leave until I turned twenty-one. (Looking back, I don't know how I lasted that long. In fact, I almost didn't. Boy, was I a mess.)

The only kind of sexual relationship that seems COMPLETELY natural and comfortable to me has always been one between two men. It was weird and terribly confusing growing up both trans and gay/queer.

Anyway, yeah, I was brought up in an incredibly prudish household where sex was NEVER discussed or even alluded to. It was quite horrible. But in a way I'm rather grateful. The thought of my mother--MY mother--being open about much of anything, especially sex, is really revolting. Frankly, it would have been awful any other way.

I prefer to think of my mother as some kind of gruesome spectre who haunts my past, but I wish she would bloody well stay there. I thought I was well rid of her until this summer, when (after coming out) I couldn't help mentally reviewing and completely reinterpreting my entire past. Now she pops up in my head and won't always go away. I don't want to talk about her, I don't want to think about her...she doesn't belong there.

I hope my therapist can help me to get rid of her, because I don't seem to be able to do it on my own.