Personally I have no plans for FFS as I believe I have said earlier in this thread. I have found that at least in the community were I live when people see me they see a woman. Even many who had seen me around before as a man do not recognise me. If however everywhere I went people pointed stared laughed or whatever and no one saw me as a woman I would be waiting in line to get FFS.

There are many transwomen out there who simply cannot pass no matter how hard they try and for them FFS is something of a necessity if they ever expect to be seen as a woman by others. Now not that what others think should matter a hill of beans but in the real world this is what is needed by some to be accepted by society as what and who they are. If they need that acceptance as part of their feeling whole then they should do it. I don't think it is very constructive to criticize or condemn someone for doing something they feel they need to do and saying that they are somehow cow towing to a male dominated view of women.

If you want FFS then get it and don't give what anyone else thinks a second thought. If you think now is the time then just do it. When is the time? Like Steph said;

QuoteYou should consider FFS when you believe if will make you feel better about yourself.

Good Journey,

Cassie

Strictly speaking there is a time and place for all things, and any ol time for FFS really isn't the (optimal) time.

I was told I should not consider surgeries until approximately 18 months after HRT had started. This is mainly due to how FFS (for example) is done and how facial features change during HRT. ... In short one does not want to get a new nose to match their existing face, which is in the process of changing.

Hello Kimberly,

I don't think you have to worry about HRT changing the physical features of your face.  The surgery remoulds your facial bone structure from a male form to that of the female.  Although HRT can and often redistributes body fat, smooths and softens skin it has very little effect, if any, on bone structure.  FFS is not the same as a face lift, although a face lift is all that some need.

Generally FFS involves cutting the jaw bone and removing bone to make it rounder,  removing bone and remoulding the bridge of the nose, and removing bone from the cheek bones and the brow line to make them less prominent.  But you probably knew that.  Being on HRT should have no bearing on "when" surgery should take place, except that some surgeons want HRT stopped prior to the procedure.

I would think that for a young person who is still growing may or should have to wait.  Cailyn has had FFS so she would have a great perspective on this, although I can't remember if she was on HRT.

Just my thoughts, chat later

Steph

People say that you pass from the neck up.

I believe FFs is the most important stuff MtFs can do to pass

Gail

In my mind, I have a priority list:

1.  GRS -- For my sense of wholeness and correctness.

2.  Voice surgery, assuming voice therapy doesn't do it alone, and that they (finally) come up with a technique with a good success rate and that doesn't make one sound weird.

3.  FFS, assuming I need it.

4.  Orthodontia.

Reason for Voice surgery as #2, I don't want to be constantly 'sir'd on the phone, and I'd like to be able to participate in converstations, rather than just sitting there looking good...

Karen

Quote from: Stephanie Craxford on September 03, 2005, 01:33:42 AM
I don't think you have to worry about HRT changing the physical features of your face.  The surgery remoulds your facial bone structure from a male form to that of the female.  Although HRT can and often redistributes body fat, smooths and softens skin it has very little effect, if any, on bone structure.  FFS is not the same as a face lift, although a face lift is all that some need.

Stephanie, keep in mind though that FFS is frequently a combination of many procedures, both bone work and soft tissue modification such as a forehead lift, hairline adjustment, rhinoplasty, and others.

This is just speculation on my part, but there could be an issue in that some types of procedures could alter the way the skin adheres to the underlying structure; I can see a situation in which internal scarring or sutures might cause a 'snag' of sorts as the fat distribution of the face changes.

Advising against surgery until HRT is well under way might be justified, especially if a lot of these soft tissue procedures are contemplated.

Annie

Very true, and i believe that one would be very prudent to thoroughly research such procedures before embarking on them.

Steph

regarding fixing the voice, here's some information for you:
the male vocal apparatus grows larger than the female, due the permanent effects of testosterone; this over time comes to resonate according to its fundamental frequency, like the difference between a cello and a violin. To simplify this, to continue the analogy, the cello vibrates a bigger box. Put some smaller, 'violin' strings over that box (or shorten the vocal cords), it still won't really sound like a violin, it will sound peculiar, and like neither instrument. This is why (unless the singer is especially gifted) you can tell the difference between a man and a woman singing the same part. Fixing the voice this way tends to just create a permanent falsetto, sounds like Jack Lemmon or Tony Curtis in "Some Like It Hot".
The thing about a female voice to me is its musicality; I don't imagine this sort of result tends to be a very musical sound.

Karen, if you hear Andrea James talk about it on her excellent voice training materials, she warns against voice surgery, saying the effects aren't that good and you still have to train that voice too. But she warns it can really damage your voice permeanently. Just a caution.

 I am almost certainly going to undergo FFS at some point, simply because I detest the size of my brow.  Even if, by the time I sort out all of the emotions and confused feelings, I decide  not to transition, I will have some surgery to reduce my brow bone.  I want to be able to pass as a woman some day, even if just for the occasional night out.  If this somehow "supports the patriarchy", whatever.  I would do it for me.  To be more attractive to women, and to have the image in the mirror be closer to what I feel inside.  Whether I have FFS or simply some cosmetic surgery is a matter of where my current road takes me.

I think there are a lot of men who would like to have less pronounced facial features, or even be a bit closer to feminine.  Feminine faces attract both sexes.

Oh, and there are standards of male beauty too.  I have been a not-handsome guy long enough to know that it matters. Genetic males do not possess the monopoly on superficiality.

Lastly...I seriously doubt that FFS resulted from a group of *gasp* male doctors sitting around having drinks. and one suggesting "Hey, there are a lot of women and transsexuals out there who do not look as good as we think they should look.  Let's pioneer a surgery to make them fit our standards and exploit them for what little money we actually allow them to make!"

Jonna

From my particular point of view:

I pass and very well, my face structure is femenine and even my brow bossing is similar to the one my sister have, so my face is still in the female range.

Will I want FFS... Hell yes, to get rid of something that I believe doesnt belong there (just like my genitals) and ceirtainly will help so I will look even better.

Quote from: tinkerbell on June 13, 2006, 12:48:12 AM
Today a very famous FFS surgeon in SAN FRANCISCO is charging almost U$45, 000 for this type of procedure, so as you can see, it isn't an option for everyone.

Ousterhout bumped his price up to $45K?  Last I knew, he was charging about 30K.  Fortunately I don't plan on getting FFS.  A few months on hormones did the trick.  A couple more years will do wonders.

Melissa

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, sory I just spent the last hour responding to this and closed the wrong browser tab and lost everything I wrote, ARHG. anyway I will resurrect some of the main points

In reguards to the main point of the thread, when to get FFS. I actually had the same question, and IMO it might be advisable just to get a professional opinion from a FFS sergion or someone who knows a lot on the effects of HRT. And if you're concerned with passabillity, just play around with photoshop or a similar program. You'll probably find, as I did, that hair and eyebrows can make all the difference in looking male or female.

In responce to who said there are no male or female faces, sorry but thats just ignorant. Take a look around, I asure you'll notice that the majority of men have the predominant brow, less rounded forehead, and more square jaw. there are definite differences. Granted there are those who arent "typical", Sigourney Weaver and Leonardo DiCaprio, are just a couple of examples. and then keep in mind race plays a factor too. Asians have a more neutral facial structure, while euro-caucasians have more distinct differences in facial structure between sexes.

Unfortunatally, Social expectations do play a huge part in an individuals comfort in life. If you look like a "typical" female, In our society it will be much easier for you to live a comfortable life as a TS woman, I dont necesarilly agree with it, but its a fact of life these days.

To put it simply (as others have already said) do it for you, if you're happy without FFS then dont get FFS, if it will make you happier or more comfortable to get FFS, then do it. Everyone has different reasons for doing what they do, so if you want to do it, do it, reguardless of others opinions about why your doing it.

Hi girls:

FFS is a personal choice and you should only do it if you feel that it's going to make you feel more comfortable about yourself.  Most MTF don't need FFS, for HRT will feminize the face somewhat.   In addition, FFS is a very costly, long and complicated surgery....some physicians consider that  it is much easier to transplant a heart than it is to transform a face.  Likewise, the recovery time varies from person to person, and it can take up to a year to see the aftermath of the surgery in some people.
If you're considering FFS, please do some research first...there are many outstanding surgeons in the US who perform an excellent job.  Here are three links of three different plastic surgeons whose work I cherish daily...

http://www.yarishmd.com

http://picosmeticsurgery.com/pi-silver.htm

http://www.drdouglasousterhout.com/


tinkerbell

I've also heard that the surgery can result in numbness of some areas of the head, such as the very top.  I agree that many don't need it.  I thought I would need it for sure, but the changes I have experienced from HRT so far have been nothing short of miraculous.  I have heard that you get the maximum effects after a couple of years and more so after removal of the testicles and I've only been on HRT for 5 months.

Melissa