Quote from: Nero on October 18, 2008, 01:02:05 AM

Quote from: deviousxen on October 18, 2008, 12:54:07 AM
... Having the hand strength to open jars?

The hell are you talking about Nero?

Being MtF is as good as being an archeologist with a crappy shovel.

Nice analogy there. Think I'm getting the picture. You girls don't get exempt from all society's pressure on little girls.

Analogies are my forte ^_^ Thanks dude.

On the point of math...I've got a very high IQ (for what that's worth lol) and have always been innately good at every subject in school.

However, I did fail Trig 3 times, making me give up on my previous dream to be a Physicist. Now, I am very happily an English (Creative Writing) major with a Japanese minor who studies linguistics in her spare time and plans to attend law school eventually.

I've also always actually rather sucked at basic math. Give me something complex and I won't have trouble with it, but give me some simple little subtraction problems and I'm screwed. lmao In fact, it's only just recently that I've finally managed to master 8+5=13. ^^;

it does?  i'll try to remember that.  <giggle>

Honestly, the math issue seems a little sexist to me. My SO Ann has her masters in Mech engineering, she also double majored for her undergrad in Mech Engineering and Applied Mathematics.

I am O.K at math, in most of my higher math classes: Calc 1-3, physmath, DiffEQ, E-Math2, I finished at the top of my classes.

Ann however is much better than I am at math, and she is one of the most feminine girls that I have ever known (physically and psychologically), she likes shopping, fashion, cooking, (she even works part time in a well known store, just to get a discount on the newest styles of clothes and shoes).

So statistically she shouldnt be able to add 2+2 much less explain what a "Laplace-Transform" is or solve for "Gradient-Vectors" but she can.

I think that math is one of those things that can be very stressful and time consuming to understand, and this is where a man's macho attitude can sometimes come out on top, if they dont understand something they will try until they do (or lie about it), and alot of girls (I have seen) will simply quit when it gets to difficult or stressful.

But to say that all women are terrible at Math and the ones that are good at it are abnormal and unfeminine, is just absurd.

sorry jesslee.  i didn't mean anything by it.  i'm just making fun of myself.  making fun of it is easier then dealing with it as a handicap, which it is.  my wife, annie, is pretty good at math too...thankfully.

i don't know why i'm just no good at it, i've heard theories about how strong brain side and weak side have something to do with it...but the truth is...i just ain't no good, it won't stay with me.  trig?  physics??  completely out of the question.  ok, algebra....that stinking subject has cost me an awful lot, you have to have some simple grasp of it to get into almost any program.  it's not that i haven't tried, i've taken several classes, remedial ones...it just won't stay with me.  i sometimes can figure out one problem...but then it seems like starting over from scratch for the next one.  it's frustrating!

Quote from: Jesslee on October 18, 2008, 01:26:07 PM
Honestly, the math issue seems a little sexist to me. My SO Ann has her masters in Mech engineering, she also double majored for her undergrad in Mech Engineering and Applied Mathematics.

I am O.K at math, in most of my higher math classes: Calc 1-3, physmath, DiffEQ, E-Math2, I finished at the top of my classes.

Ann however is much better than I am at math, and she is one of the most feminine girls that I have ever known (physically and psychologically), she likes shopping, fashion, cooking, (she even works part time in a well known store, just to get a discount on the newest styles of clothes and shoes).

So statistically she shouldnt be able to add 2+2 much less explain what a "Laplace-Transform" is or solve for "Gradient-Vectors" but she can.

I think that math is one of those things that can be very stressful and time consuming to understand, and this is where a man's macho attitude can sometimes come out on top, if they dont understand something they will try until they do (or lie about it), and alot of girls (I have seen) will simply quit when it gets to difficult or stressful.

But to say that all women are terrible at Math and the ones that are good at it are abnormal and unfeminine, is just absurd.

That was my point as well as others' sweetheart. That society doesn't steer our girls towards math because of sexism.

Quote from: Nero on October 16, 2008, 05:11:37 PM
Evening dolls.

I was wondering about something. Do you think your background (being raised as male, treated as male, etc) has helped you in areas women typically struggle with?

For instance, a lot of women struggle with assertiveness and to some degree this is enforced by the 'proper feminine decorum' police. Assertive or confrontational women are often labeled bitches. So some women shrink back from speaking their mind in order to appear more 'pleasing' to others.

Only insomuch as I understand men probably better than other women since I spent decades in their world.

As for assertiveness, I could never get that one right. I always ended up coming off as mean and mad when I tried to do the male assertiveness thing. The problem was I was trying to be assertive in a masculine way and that is just not me. Now I am learning to be assertive in a more feminine way, and that I understand and am comfortable with. Go figger.

Quote from: Nero on October 18, 2008, 02:12:00 PM

Quote from: Jesslee on October 18, 2008, 01:26:07 PM
Honestly, the math issue seems a little sexist to me. My SO Ann has her masters in Mech engineering, she also double majored for her undergrad in Mech Engineering and Applied Mathematics.

I am O.K at math, in most of my higher math classes: Calc 1-3, physmath, DiffEQ, E-Math2, I finished at the top of my classes.

Ann however is much better than I am at math, and she is one of the most feminine girls that I have ever known (physically and psychologically), she likes shopping, fashion, cooking, (she even works part time in a well known store, just to get a discount on the newest styles of clothes and shoes).

So statistically she shouldnt be able to add 2+2 much less explain what a "Laplace-Transform" is or solve for "Gradient-Vectors" but she can.

I think that math is one of those things that can be very stressful and time consuming to understand, and this is where a man's macho attitude can sometimes come out on top, if they dont understand something they will try until they do (or lie about it), and alot of girls (I have seen) will simply quit when it gets to difficult or stressful.

But to say that all women are terrible at Math and the ones that are good at it are abnormal and unfeminine, is just absurd.

That was my point as well as others' sweetheart. That society doesn't steer our girls towards math because of sexism.

Nero, you are so correct!

I honestly believe that the only reason Ann continued on in school was because she had a very strong Mother who was a civil engineer, and her father was an mech engineer.

They both encouraged her to pursue education in this field and when she had trouble with something they never told her she was not supposed to be good at it because she was "female".

She was shocked when she got her first job, because an older male engineer (who liked her, but also wanted to dominate her) told her she should think about going back to school and getting a MBA because Engineering is a "very male profession" and she would always have trouble fitting in.

I have also seen this attitude in the class-rooms where many engineering students and a few professors have made comments similar to the above.

They had no idea that I was not a male (psychologically, neurologically), so it was often very discouraging.

With the current situation in America, we need all the engineers we can get so equally encouraging girls and boys who show prospect in the area, must be done.

Society's attitude regarding this, needs to change!

Quote from: Jesslee on October 18, 2008, 01:26:07 PM
I think that math is one of those things that can be very stressful and time consuming to understand, and this is where a man's macho attitude can sometimes come out on top, if they dont understand something they will try until they do (or lie about it), and alot of girls (I have seen) will simply quit when it gets to difficult or stressful.

That works both ways though.  I'm doing a maths phd and we have to tutor undergrads as part of that.
And its men's machoness that seems to make them less willing to listen and learn, and they are quite happy to pretend they know stuff when they blatantly don't.  That seems to make them less able to actually come out on top.  and guys and girls seem to quit equally when they can't do something, and both genders seem equally capable of learning the stuff!

But yes its completely sexist to think girls can't do maths, (and i like to think that i and the rest of us girls in the grad school prove that point)

Quote from: pennyjane on October 18, 2008, 01:51:38 PM
sorry jesslee.  i didn't mean anything by it.  i'm just making fun of myself.  making fun of it is easier then dealing with it as a handicap, which it is.  my wife, annie, is pretty good at math too...thankfully.

i don't know why i'm just no good at it, i've heard theories about how strong brain side and weak side have something to do with it...but the truth is...i just ain't no good, it won't stay with me.  trig?  physics??  completely out of the question.  ok, algebra....that stinking subject has cost me an awful lot, you have to have some simple grasp of it to get into almost any program.  it's not that i haven't tried, i've taken several classes, remedial ones...it just won't stay with me.  i sometimes can figure out one problem...but then it seems like starting over from scratch for the next one.  it's frustrating!

PJ, I did not take any offense from what you said, please dont think I was 


I just hate to see a woman get treated like an Odd-Duck because they have a mathematical/scientific background, it is almost as bad as the "Old-Maid-Librarian" stereotype.


As for the math, I can undestand what you went though, it was very tough for me as well. (unlike my SO) I grew up very poor and worked (full time) from the 8th grade onward, I went to a very rundown poor highscool (thank god they finally closed it after 3 consecutive "F" ratings) that only taught Elementary Algebra.


When I started college I also had to begin with remedial (elementary algebra) math, I spent an extra year (3 semesters) trying to catch up with normal freshman level math, and then nearly 3 years of higher mathematics.


Just so you know, almost everybody has trouble remembering things. I was just talking with a friend who is a Phd. candidate working in "Condensed Matter Physics" and we were discussing one of his friends who finished his Phd. in Physics several years ago and took a job outside of the Engineering/Physics field.
He said that after being out of this for several years he has problems even doing simple "Integration", Just so you know, a physicist who cannot Integrate is like a Pilot who cannot see! So dont feel bad about not remembering things, because almost nobody can!

Posted on: October 18, 2008, 03:16:32 pm

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Quote from: jenny_ on October 18, 2008, 03:00:22 PM

Quote from: Jesslee on October 18, 2008, 01:26:07 PM
I think that math is one of those things that can be very stressful and time consuming to understand, and this is where a man's macho attitude can sometimes come out on top, if they dont understand something they will try until they do (or lie about it), and alot of girls (I have seen) will simply quit when it gets to difficult or stressful.

That works both ways though.  I'm doing a maths phd and we have to tutor undergrads as part of that.
And its men's machoness that seems to make them less willing to listen and learn, and they are quite happy to pretend they know stuff when they blatantly don't.  That seems to make them less able to actually come out on top.  and guys and girls seem to quit equally when they can't do something, and both genders seem equally capable of learning the stuff!

But yes its completely sexist to think girls can't do maths, (and i like to think that i and the rest of us girls in the grad school prove that point)

Hello Jenny congratulations on your achievement I hope that you do well, I also read recently that Phd's in Mathematics have the most stress free jobs for their pay! Pitty us poor Engineers (all work, no theory) 


If you notice I did mention that I have personally seen that men will "lie about" understanding it.



Also what I mean about coming out on top, is that most of what I have seen in this field is that "Perseverance" pays off. At the lower levels of college math the classes were almost always evenly divided between male/female.



however, once the curriculum began to get more challenging, I would notice that the males would be less likely to admit that they had trouble understanding it (and they could be very vocal about this), while I had girls actually tell me that they were about to start crying during tests, and this led many of them to think that they were the only ones who were having trouble. Add to this the fact that society says its O.K for a female to not understand Math/Science, then most of these girls felt that it was normal for them to have such trouble and would decide that an education in the Sciences/Mathematics/Engineering fields would not be possible for them.


I do not know how classes in England are statistically divided, but I can tell you that here in Florida, I personally seen that after calc-2, the majority shifted from female to male, and by the time I was in DiffEQ, and E-math2, the classrooms were over 90% male. Once again, this is not because females couldnt do it, I believe it is because they were encouraged to develop an "Apathetic" attitude towards this field of study!

The notion that girls couldn't do math was one I simply didn't get.  My mother holds an MS in the field.

For the original questions in this discussion I always felt my background was rather odd.  I have one sibling, born the same gender and only a couple years younger.  One would tend to think our youth experiences would be very similar, but that was not the case.  It's actually difficult to imagine them being more different.  His youth was one of a great deal of freedom, few duties, and little criticism, being allowed a great deal of free time and social contact throughout school age, and dating starting in 7th grade.   Mine was very limited freedom, an excessive load of duties, and constant criticism, with no real amount of non-family social contact, including dating, allowed until college (we were two years apart in school, so this meant my younger brother was allowed the freedoms while I was still denied them for several more years.)  My father ran a dairy farm so what I was assigned as "daily chores" was far beyond what most tend to think of that phrase implying, e.g. my summer days were spent running diesel tractors to mow or bale hay for 10-12 hours.  Academic achievements made a great example of the criticism; I got better grades but they were never good enough, e.g. I'd be criticized for only getting a 99% on an exam.  When it came to sibling rivalry, the balance tipped the same direction - I was always seen as the party in the wrong.

I was definitely required to be passive and permissive.  I was not told I had to be, in fact I received a conflicting message.  I was told I should be aggressive and stand up for myself, but I was punished every time I did so.  I'd say the view held by my parents was that I should be only when they approved, but an occasion in which I it was deemed acceptable never occurred.  On multiple occasions I was directly told my punishment was for failing to "just get along."

My only comparison to girls came from a cousin who lived nearby.  Although she did not enjoy the level my brother did, she enjoyed far more freedom than me.

It just goes to show you that stereotypes were meant to be broken. I was lousy at math in high school and college. I concentrated on art and  literature classes instead. But now, I have, on my own, mastered tha calculus of computer programming. I know c, c++, c#, pascal, BASIC and visual BASIC as well as the declarative languages of the web: HTML, CSS and XML. How did this happen? I take to programming like a duck to water, but don't ask me to do anything more than simple addition, subtraction, division and multiplication.

I still have not gotten how this happened.

QuoteBeing MtF is as good as being an archeologist with a crappy shovel.
Deviousxen

"Hee, hee, hee." I laughed until I almost peed my panties when I read this post.

Wing Walker said the crappy shovel makes no difference if your dig site is in the sand.  She's like that, the one who will clean a barn full to the rafters with horse ->-bleeped-<- because she's sure that there's pony for her someplace in the mess.

Psssssst, I got a back hoe behind the house.

Cindy

Posted on: October 19, 2008, 03:04:23 am

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Hi Tasha hon, obviously I can see that that you appear to be struggling with some type of problem. I pray that I am wrong but if I am correct then please feel free to contact me by PM and share some with me if you should so desire to.

Cindy 

My past has enabled me to change a tyre without flagging down a helpful male to assist me in my time of maidenly distress.

Darned Skirts *huff*

"Hee, hee, hee." Hi Rachael, I never tried that, do you think thy would stop to help an old lady?
Cindy takes walking stick, eye glasses, and white hair piece from under the seat.

Cindy

If your past does not inform your present, and help you in some way deal with it, you pretty much wasted your life to date.

All that math stuff is bull.  Some people - not male, or female, just people - are better at it than others.  That's all.

"Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamen!"

Cindy

Quote from: tekla on October 19, 2008, 05:32:58 AM
If your past does not inform your present, and help you in some way deal with it, you pretty much wasted your life to date.

All that math stuff is bull.  Some people - not male, or female, just people - are better at it than others.  That's all.

Im afraid to say DUH....

My past WAS a waste of time... i spent 20 years in limbo now im living, did i learn anything? men smell.

as for math, my housemate is doing her masters degree in math

Quote from: Rachael on October 19, 2008, 06:27:45 AM

Quote from: tekla on October 19, 2008, 05:32:58 AM
If your past does not inform your present, and help you in some way deal with it, you pretty much wasted your life to date.

All that math stuff is bull.  Some people - not male, or female, just people - are better at it than others.  That's all.

Im afraid to say DUH....

My past WAS a waste of time... i spent 20 years in limbo now im living, did i learn anything? men smell.

as for math, my housemate is doing her masters degree in math

Have to agree with you about the past.  Living a lie doesn't really get you very far, and was a waste of time.  And any way anything i've learnt over that time wasn't because i was "male".

and Rachael, your meant to be British, spell maths properly!!!

Quote from: jenny_ on October 19, 2008, 06:42:15 AM

Quote from: Rachael on October 19, 2008, 06:27:45 AM

Quote from: tekla on October 19, 2008, 05:32:58 AM
If your past does not inform your present, and help you in some way deal with it, you pretty much wasted your life to date.

All that math stuff is bull.  Some people - not male, or female, just people - are better at it than others.  That's all.

Im afraid to say DUH....

My past WAS a waste of time... i spent 20 years in limbo now im living, did i learn anything? men smell.

as for math, my housemate is doing her masters degree in math

Have to agree with you about the past.  Living a lie doesn't really get you very far, and was a waste of time.  And any way anything i've learnt over that time wasn't because i was "male".

and Rachael, your meant to be British, spell maths properly!!!

huh you mean math is plural in British?