Quote from: Rachael on October 29, 2008, 08:22:01 AM
i still belive there is a differece between identity and obsession...

You seem to be missing the point that there's no reliable way to tell whose identities are the result of an obsession and whose aren't.  Also, no reliable way to tell whose obsessions are the result of underlying identities and whose aren't.  Unless a self-proclaimed autogynephile says 'I am a MAN who is an autogynephile' you are not in a position to state that they're not a woman.  Invalidating trans people's identities or even deciding their identities for them is Not A Good Thing(tm).  In doing so you give tacit consent for people to question ALL trans people's identities.

Quote from: Rachael on October 29, 2008, 08:22:01 AM
i still belive there is a differece between identity and obsession...

Hmmm, well for myself, I must admit there was never a moment in my life where I wasn't thinking about all this. Changing my sex, being a girl, however you wanna phrase it. Every single thought throughout my 44 years of existence had "yea but you're not a girl, darn it..." appended to it. 24/7. Nonstop. Unrelenting. Whether happy, sad, laughing, mad... "yea but you're not a girl, darn it..."

It was beyond "obsession," it defined who I was, how I saw the entire world and myself.

FWIW.

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on October 29, 2008, 08:51:28 AM

Quote from: Rachael on October 29, 2008, 08:22:01 AM
i still belive there is a differece between identity and obsession...

Hmmm, well for myself, I must admit there was never a moment in my life where I wasn't thinking about all this. Changing my sex, being a girl, however you wanna phrase it. Every single thought throughout my 44 years of existence had "yea but you're not a girl, darn it..." appended to it. 24/7. Nonstop. Unrelenting. Whether happy, sad, laughing, mad... "yea but you're not a girl, darn it..."

It was beyond "obsession," it defined who I was, how I saw the entire world and myself.

FWIW.

~Kate~

Well im so glad to have read that Kate, I completely obsess about transitioning, heck I think about it more times than men supposedly think about sex, once a min so ive read and to the point that all my dreams for years have been female in nature or basis so if that is then perceived as a form of ->-bleeped-<- then so be it. Society though has encouraged women for at least the last decade and beyond to revel in your womanhood, look and sexuality.

Btw I have really enjoyed this thread having never really read such an in-depth opinion of this subject and its many nuances before. I apologise now for any ignorance I have on the subject, just a girl trying to be a girl I am 

Thank you for the really interesting posts.

Quote from: Kate on October 29, 2008, 08:51:28 AM

Quote from: Rachael on October 29, 2008, 08:22:01 AM
i still belive there is a differece between identity and obsession...

Hmmm, well for myself, I must admit there was never a moment in my life where I wasn't thinking about all this. Changing my sex, being a girl, however you wanna phrase it. Every single thought throughout my 44 years of existence had "yea but you're not a girl, darn it..." appended to it. 24/7. Nonstop. Unrelenting. Whether happy, sad, laughing, mad... "yea but you're not a girl, darn it..."

It was beyond "obsession," it defined who I was, how I saw the entire world and myself.

FWIW.

~Kate~

Exactly!

Quote from: Rachael on October 29, 2008, 08:22:01 AM
i still belive there is a differece between identity and obsession...

But where do you draw the line? And how much of an obsession may someone have in addition to the identity, or even about making their body congruent with the identity? To quote Louis Gooren, The biology of human psychosexual differentiation (Hormones and Behavior 50 (2006) 589--601),

Quote
Preoperatively, many subjects experience sexual arousal to cross-dressing or to fantasies about themselves as women (' ->-bleeped-<-'). In all probability, with a male anatomy experienced as an alienation from the self, there are not many other options for sexual fantasies about oneself than to imagine oneself as woman. This assumption is substantiated by the observation that postreassignment surgery episodes of autogyenephilia declined from occurring in 49% preoperatively to 3% postoperatively (Lawrence, 2005). These observations argue against the use of the term nonhomosexual and autogyenephilia as a trait of late onset transsexuals since they lack permanence in the course of the lives of transsexuals.

This sounds pretty reasonable to me -- and please note how he uses Lawrence's own data to argue against her conclusions. Explaining ' ->-bleeped-<-', or at the very least the vast majority of it, in this manner is much more plausible than the BBL line: the article Gooren cites above (Anne Lawrence, Sexuality Before and After Male-to-Female Sex Reassignment Surgery, Archives of Sexual Behavior, Vol. 34, No. 2, April 2005, pp. 147--166) contains mental gymnastics such as

Quote
Several previous studies (Bentler, 1976; Blanchard, 1985; Blanchard, Clemmensen, et al., 1987; Freund,
Steiner, & Chan, 1982; Leavitt & Berger, 1990) have reported a history of autogynephilic arousal in persons
described as homosexual relative to anatomic sex, an unexpected finding if  ->-bleeped-<- is theorized to be
a variant form of gynephilia. Blanchard (1985) suggested that some ostensibly homosexual transsexuals who reported autogynephilic arousal were probably not genuinely homosexual but had misrepresented their sexual orientation.

All in all, Lawrence's article has some vaguely interesting data, but large parts of the discussion would be best described as funny if it wasn't meant so seriously. The bottom line in any case is that the number of 'homosexual' transsexuals who are free from autogynephilic 'obsession' is small -- only 14% of Lawrence's study participants claimed to be completely free from such experiences, and she herself notes that there is a clear reluctance to admit to any  ->-bleeped-<-.

Sure, there was a clear correlation that straight girls had less 'autogynephilic experiences' than lesbian or bisexual girls, but it's a bit hard to figure out whether this is because of how the study defined 'autogynephilic experience' (she doesn't specify this), or because straight girls tend to get turned on by the male body rather than the female, or for some other reason. And it's interesting to note that the number of these experiences dropped drastically after SRS (before, 49% had 'hundreds or more' of these and 14% 'none', after 3% had 'hundreds or more' and 56% had 'none'): if one really was turned on by the thought of being female, wouldn't 'he' be even more constantly turned on post-op?

If a study that was designed to find such obsession didn't result in better evidence than this, I'm sorely tempted to think that the obsession is at best rare enough to be meaningless.

  Nfr

Quote from: Zythyra on October 28, 2008, 10:07:07 PM
If, for a hypothetical moment, we were to say that Blanchard/Bailey's autogynephelia and/or transvestic fetishism existed as a diagnosis, what's their recommended cure for it? SRS? HRT? Full time transition? Occasional cross-dressing? Inquiring minds want to know.

Z

An interesting question.......and the answer is:  Blanchard regards SRS for AGs legitimate treatment.  At least that's the position he maintained for years at Jurassic Clarke.  A growing number of psychiatrists however disagree with him on that and will not write letters for those who fall on the AG side.

Quote from: nooneinparticular on October 29, 2008, 09:21:43 AM
An interesting question.......and the answer is:  Blanchard regards SRS for AGs legitimate treatment.  At least that's the position he maintained for years at Jurassic Clarke.  A growing number of psychiatrists however disagree with him on that and will not write letters for those who fall on the AG side.

Amoungst those who embrace these theories, is there any consensus about the "success" of transitioning for AGs vs. Everyone Else? Are AGs as capable of blending and assimilating as Everyone Else?

~Kate~

Nicole, your constant need to psychoanalysis me is getting beyond old.......

You know little of my life, nothing of my day to day realities and frankly I do not share many of my personal opinions on trans issues.  What you are doing is bordering on the obsessive.  It is beyond a doubt offensive in the extreme.  If this board had an Intergalactic Overlord Monitor, I'd be tempted to complain about it.

I have no reason to care much for transgenders, that is absolutely true.  Your constant shots at my "self esteem" issues and "need for personal vindication" and "need to be real" are total bull...the fact is I am supremely comfortable within my own skin, my womanhood creds unquestioned by myself and almost everyone in my life, I have no passing issues and hell, I'm not even trans.   I don't buy into "no trans left behind" and never will.  I'm a feminist and I do draw personal distinctions.  I do, however, treat people with respect until they give me reason not to and you are giving me ample reason not to.

Give it up.

Isn't it the problem with the concept of AG that it sees everything through the prism of testosterone-fueled sexuality and dismisses gender identity altogether?

Quote from: nooneinparticular on October 29, 2008, 05:25:27 AM

Quote from: Rachael on October 28, 2008, 06:06:32 PM
different maybe.... better or worse? no, the trans community seems to belive that younger is somehow better... or older is worse. i dont see that as the case, but surely the most stuborn amungst us must see there are people who transition as soon as they can, and some who will live 30-40 years then do it. It seems quite cut to me... dispite plenty doing it at all ages as you say, theres seems distinct groupings however in the averages.

What you are seeing is a much higher percentage of AGs among older transitioners.  Now I won't pass judgment on who or who isn't a "woman" but I will observe that non-transwomen know other women and those AGs are the ones who typically have so so so much trouble with "passing".......and it ain't appearance. Several of my women friends are PCOS, a hormonal condition with high amounts of testeostrone.  They all had problems being "accepted" among other women before treatment despite very female norm bodies.

So you *ARE* reading the thread, but choosing not to reply to my direct question to you.

Does this mean you concede my point that your position is hypocritical and damaging too the community as a whole?

Or are you holding your fingers in your ears and screaming LALALALLALALLALALL I CAN'T HEAR YOU

Why does it matter how someone gets here? Once they're here, they're here. The only thing left to do is to help them transition.

We do not need another gatekeeper sorting out "classic" and "AG" transsexuals.

The evidence overwhelmingly shows the autogynephilic feelings decrease post-op, did you ever think that conceivably it's just one more in a large array of coping mechanisms?

WHY must you create a divide and insist that different groups even exist?

We all reach that point in our lives where we simply can not continue living as a man. We all reach that decision point and either decide to suicide, or to go through with the transition. How long and how well we cope prior to that decision point has a lot to do with environment, upbringing, personal, familial and financial considerations.

So, a Transsexual who can't transition imagines herself as a woman to get off, but hasn't yet admitted that she *is* a woman.... I call that a coping mechanism, not a sexual deviant who shares nothing in common with "true" transsexuals.

You've said it yourself, you're not a Transsexual, you're a mosaic chimera intersex who's chosen to live in the female gender, so from whence do you derive your power to apply a label to someone else, invalidating their experience and expect it to stick? Why do you or anyone else get to say who is and isn't a "true" transsexual?

Yes, I expect an answer. I expect it in calm logic, and not the emotional filibuster you've been using. You're dodging me, and it's either because I've stated uncomfortable truths, or because you can't differentiate my persistent pursuit of consistency of logic and civil rights for all, and instead think I'm attacking you personally.

Like I stated earlier, I am not attacking you personally. I am attacking your position and asking you to defend it. I don't care who you are, I don't believe that anyone has the right to label another human being against their will, and I believe in this case it is harmful to the community as a whole to cause this division.

We need to stand up to the gatekeepers, not become their lapdogs, or nothing will ever change.

Quote from: soldierjane on October 29, 2008, 09:36:16 AM
Isn't it the problem with the concept of AG that it sees everything through the prism of testosterone-fueled sexuality and dismisses gender identity altogether?

Yes, it's my understanding that they're saying there is no such thing as Gender Identity. It's a myth, an illusion, an erroneous conclusion people use to justify their actions and behavior.

There would only be two motivations to transition:

1) Effeminate gay men who see it making life easier for themselves, since being effeminate as a female is accepted by society. AND they can get more (and straight) men for sex

2) Hetero men who are in love with the idea of themselves as women, in an odd kind of romantic/sexual dynamic directed towards the self rather than another person. One becomes their own romantic/sexual partner, and the only way to fulfill the relationship is to transition

That's my take on it anyway...

~Kate~

Flutter:
Simple answer......there is no "community", what there is is a ramble of people with unrelated issues and conditions, some of whom demand others accept their imposed labels.......which I refuse to do.  Hell, the entire HBS vs. the transgenders issues is actually one of HBS people refusing a label and the TGs insisting they wear it anyway for some perceived legitimacy coattailled off it........

I know a bunch of post op crossdressers.......they remain crossdressers.  It isn't the surgery, it's the neurology.  Crossdressed body, crossdressed genitials......it's still crossdressing.  One is either a woman or they are not.

Plain enough for you?

Quote from: nooneinparticular on October 29, 2008, 09:49:15 AM
I know a bunch of post op crossdressers.......they remain crossdressers...

Is there a noticable difference though, in terms of assimilation into society and happiness overall, between postop CDrs and postop TSs?

~Kate~

My two cents worth on the whole thing. 

Any shrink who takes the easy road out by using the definition I found at the Wikipedia site is lazy, inept, and should be run out of the profession.

What a bunch of hogwash.

Sarah L.

Quote from: Kate on October 29, 2008, 09:51:41 AM

Quote from: nooneinparticular on October 29, 2008, 09:49:15 AM
I know a bunch of post op crossdressers.......they remain crossdressers...

Is there a noticable difference though, in terms of assimilation into society and happiness overall, between postop CDrs and postop TSs?

~Kate~

Asked and answered.......several times, no one here liked the answer.  The AGs have a lousy post surgical satisfaction track record and a high rate of personal acceptance post transitioned issues. 

Quote from: nooneinparticular on October 29, 2008, 09:55:04 AM
Asked and answered.......several times, no one here liked the answer.  The AGs have a lousy post surgical satisfaction track record and a high rate of personal acceptance post transitioned issues. 

So if someone is not completely happy after transition they are a post-op crossdresser instead of a transsexual woman? Is that what you are saying, or is there some other criterion you can use to decide who is what?

  Nfr

Quote from: nooneinparticular on October 29, 2008, 09:49:15 AM
Flutter:
Simple answer......there is no "community", what there is is a ramble of people with unrelated issues and conditions, some of whom demand others accept their imposed labels.......which I refuse to do.  Hell, the entire HBS vs. the transgenders issues is actually one of HBS people refusing a label and the TGs insisting they wear it anyway for some perceived legitimacy coattailled off it........

I know a bunch of post op crossdressers.......they remain crossdressers.  It isn't the surgery, it's the neurology.  Crossdressed body, crossdressed genitials......it's still crossdressing.  One is either a woman or they are not.

Plain enough for you?

There is no community because people seek to legitimize their own experience by belittling the experience of others.

Have these "post op crossdressers" told you they were still men? Can you provide a reference to this study you state 1) finds a way to differentiate the two groups and 2) shows their satisfaction ratings post-op?

This seems entirely to subjective to have such concrete figures as you mentioned earlier. And if these "post-op crossdressers" don't apply the term to themselves, or consider themselves women, what right do you have to tell them they are not?

How would you feel if I said you weren't a woman simply because you were born with a penis despite being a mosaic chimera? Do I have a right or a special insight that allows me to invalidate your reality?

Would you say a Boi in the lesbian scene isn't a woman because she acts and dresses like a man?

I'm sorry to pop your solipsistic bubble here, but why do you get to pick the labels?

Quote from: Kate on October 29, 2008, 09:48:05 AM

Quote from: soldierjane on October 29, 2008, 09:36:16 AM
Isn't it the problem with the concept of AG that it sees everything through the prism of testosterone-fueled sexuality and dismisses gender identity altogether?

Yes, it's my understanding that they're saying there is no such thing as Gender Identity. It's a myth, an illusion, an erroneous conclusion people use to justify their actions and behavior.

There would only be two motivations to transition:

1) Effeminate gay men who see it making life easier for themselves, since being effeminate as a female is accepted by society. AND they can get more (and straight) men for sex

2) Hetero men who are in love with the idea of themselves as women, in an odd kind of romantic/sexual dynamic directed towards the self rather than another person. One becomes their own romantic/sexual partner, and the only way to fulfill the relationship is to transition

That's my take on it anyway...

~Kate~

That was my point. I think that the concept of AG applied to TS issues is based on misperceptions and no matter how much explanation we do after the fact, it still won't work because the basic tenets are wrong, the categorization is wrong at the root. Discussing the prevalence or non prevalence of AG among a certain population, for example, is just hot air. Besides, the contempt it shows for transmen and their stories should really raise a flag.

But of course, if someone wants to call themselves AG, be my guest. Same if you want to call yourself '->-bleeped-<-' or any of those things; just don't expect much intellectual respect I guess.

Quote from: Rachael on October 29, 2008, 07:13:49 AM
This is getting too silly politically correct... people like anne laurence arnt in a stage. regardless of how they identify, identity can be delusion brought on through extreme obsession... Im afraid anyone who IDENTIFIES as being attracted to themselves as women is rather confused, and deffinately male in this instance.

Sorry, but i refuse to accept every niche fettish.

There was at least one study (someone posted it at BL) that reported natal women identified as AG at the same rate as transwomen.  I think a lot of people are just judging the "womanhood" of other transitioners based on how well they pass, which I think is ridiculous and shameful.  There are a lot of women who act butch but are still women.  If they were male bodied, they would probably have a lot more trouble passing.  Discrimination against butch acting women is a notoriously contemptible type of misogyny.

Quote from: glendagladwitch on October 29, 2008, 10:14:43 AM
I think a lot of people are just judging the "womanhood" of other transitioners based on how well they pass, which I think is ridiculous and shameful. 

But not really new. Lookism is alive and well in our community as well as in the larger female community.