Quote from: Melissa on June 23, 2006, 01:37:40 AM
   And Leigh also only saw me with my male look.   

This isn't quite true.  I did see you in the Pride parade.

Leigh

Oh yeah, I forgot.

Melissa

That is such a cool event Heather.  I will remember it as I go through my days.  I was out the other day and didn't give it much thought until some woman gave me a strange look I smiled but continued shopping.  I don't know if I have the confidence that you talk about but I did try to not let it bother me.  I struggled with it on the way home.  Thanks for relaying this event.

Quote from: Chynna on June 23, 2006, 08:05:09 AM
Sorry everyone...... you know I have this way of seeing things and I just wanted to say to all who took offense to her post that if you carefully read it "out loud" like i did the second time and you may pick-up on a few things hidden in this persons post & you may get a better understanding of the person Tania...

Pay close attention to the last two lines where she at least tried to be courtesy and apologenic after being and I agree with all "somewhat rude" for her post. I know its a fustrating thing when a person insults another person and then tries to clean it up or apologize for it.
and
Of cousres there are just rude people in the world and then you have those who have a difficultie in expressing thereselves in words and simply cannot elegantly state there thoughts like so many of us here can and inadvertantly  come off seeming rude or abrassive. which may or may not be the case in her point.
It could be she as a serious issue or complex in herself with passing and she got extremely upset by the thread
It could be that she saw Melissa as someone who "had it all together" and she got a little jealous.
Or I could be simply trying to make excuses for her or protect her because that is a character flaw I myself have
I try myself not to be jugdementall to anyone (even though I sometimes am) so I was trying to be objective and give the girl the benifit of the doubt at first.

I just want to throw my thoughts and opinion in on the manner..Hence trying to reach that dollar by contributing my 2 cents.

JUST A THOUGHT


Seeing two sides to every coin
Chynna

Chynna, I tried giving the benefit of the doubt as well, which is especially hard when the comments are directed at yourself.  I was polite in my response, and yet I was attacked again.  So then, I decided to clarify what I meant by passing.  I do realize she was saying "sorry" and "i don't understand", which was the reason for my polite responses.  But I do want to thank everyone for pitching in.  Hearing stuff like that when I'm already PMSing is not good.  I invited her to post an introduction, but she hasn't done so.  From what I can discern from her few posts, she is genderqueer and passing is not important to her and she doesn't quite understand what being TS is.  At this point, I do not feel hurt by those comments, because regardless of what she thinks, reality says different.  I hope I have provided enough information to help her "understand".

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on June 23, 2006, 10:58:28 AMI was polite in my response, and yet I was attacked again.  So then, I decided to clarify what I meant by passing.  I do realize she was saying "sorry" and "i don't understand", which was the reason for my polite responses.

Melissa = class

Does one want to pass as our gender or is it that we wish to be accepted as our gender and have the freedom to develop our personality?

Quote from: michelle on June 23, 2006, 01:37:45 PM
Does one want to pass as our gender or is it that we wish to be accepted as our gender and have the freedom to develop our personality?

Quote from: Melissa on June 22, 2006, 08:24:28 PM
...whether I pass or not is unimportant.  I am doing this for myself.

Melissa

not understand too much about you give ideas about passing.  you say dont care passing but talk about pasing all the time. if i say someone dont pass you get mad at me. not my fault people look masculine on photos. what i say is opinion of me not what you think, so it's ok to say some people here dont pass and dont look like normal woman.
i'm studyng english too, at least tryng to learn two language.
for me pasing not everything in transition, i don't lie to me and say i pass when i dont pass never. you opinion count but mine count also. tania

Well you can't always tell from a still photo. For one thing, it's kind of a given that most of the posters here are somewhere in the TG/TS/CD/TV spectrum, so there's certainly the expectation to see pictures here of people who are. That can do a lot to influence how you "read" others.

And then too it can be surprising who will pass. I used to look at myself in the mirror and say yuck I won't ever pass looking like this. Then I found myself passing not only when dressed up but also at work when I wasn't even trying to look female. I even posted my photo on other boards thinking well it's not that great a picture but at least people will see what I look like. And men - straight men - started hitting on me.

So, when anyone here says that they pass, I believe them... because it really is more than just looks. It also involves confidence, intonation, what clothes you wear, how you carry yourself, and any number of other factors.

Hi Tania, glad we didn't scare you off yet.

I do agree that the picture I posted does tend to look on the masculine side, but as I said I have changed a lot since then.  I did not say I was passing back when I took that, although others did, but I have also lost weight since then.  Anyhow, by the term "pass", all I meant is that people see me as female.  I think many weren't sure just by looking at me (there are plenty of masculine looking women), but when they saw how I carried myself and all my mannerism, they saw me as female.

Now the confusion may lie in the fact that I said I pass, but I never said I pass 100%.  I know there are people who can tell I'm TS, but there is also a good portion of people who see me as any other woman.  I talk about passing, because that is the title of this thread.  I don't talk about it all the time.  If you take a look at my past posts, you will see that the few on here that do talk about passing, make up a miniscule minority of the writing I have done.  If I only had 10 posts and 8 of them talked about passing, then I would agree with you that it is excessive.  However, I have well over 1600 posts at this time and the couple that do talk about it are few and far between.

I don't consider it the most important thing, but it does feel nice when it happens.  Especially when I'm not even trying.  Am I transitioning in order to pass?  No way.  I am doing this to express my true self.  I don't pretend to be anything anymore.  When people meet me, what they see is how I truly am.  I sensed that your intentions were not truly malicious and therefore I didn't react in a way that may have had negative repercussions.  I'm sorry you had to experience being chewed out.  That's the way this forum works.  Like a great big family.  You had not joined the family when you started posting those comments and thus the attacks.

You state about me posting conflicting messages.  I believe they were not mutually exclusive, but that they were actually complementary.  Just because it's not the most important thing to me, doesn't mean I don't pass well to *other* people.  Perhaps you know what to look for (I saw your intro and you are TG), because you are TG yourself.  You know what signs and imperfections to look for.  Plus, you had the advantage of knowing this was a transgendered board.  People who are not familiar with transsexuals do not typically look for certain signs and give you the benefit of the doubt and therefore, that makes passing to a non-TG person much easier, than passing to a TS person such as yourself.  Even if you did know the signs (adam's apple, large hands, very tall), I do not possess those.

I understand that your english skills may be somewhat subpar, but rather than posting general comments such as "you do not pass", please elaborate on why.  What things in particular did you think stood out.  That would be much more helpful, than a "you don't pass at all".  Again, as I said, you are TG yourself, on a TG forum, where I have many posts admitting I'm TS.  Of course I won't pass to you.

Melissa

Melissa
i was wondering what kind of vocal work you have done, just regular practice?
was your drab voice low? or did you have a head start there.
Kate

I started with an average male voice.  Not super deep (I can get it low enough to sing Johnny Cash if I want), but not super high either.  I bought the Finding your Female Voice DVDs and used those, but I didn't feel like they were really helping.  I think they did womewhat though, since I was able to figure out how to talk in a "head voice".  What helped me the most though is speech therapy.  I've had 4 sessions and at this point, I know the techniques to get a voice on the phone that passes, but I still need lots of practice.  I will be able to practice all the time, once I go fulltime.  I've also been raising the pitch of my male voice over time, so the difference won't be as shocking to other people.

Melissa

Tania
I feel that you have made some very frank and open comments. those comments also reflect your cultural standards. so i think we have ended up with a bit of culture clash. (our standards do not match your standards)

certainly your introduction post helps us to see  your view point. I must admit that the first post of yours that i read was your introduction, and having that background gave me insight to your other posts.

I also feel that some members have over-reacted to those comments. members have been all to quick to use the smite. it is my opinion that some of those are justified others are not so valid. and that you have you have now become the target of well meaning members who only wish to defend someone who we hold close to our hearts.

I believe that one of the great things about Susan's is our diversity. That wide range of differing opinions and view points. I for one hope that you chose to contribute to this community. I look forward to your posts.

Perhaps you might post what steps you have been taking to pass on your journey.

Kate Alice

Please do not reply to Tania in this topic as there is some doubt as to her authenticity.

Steph

Passing has a lot to do with attitude and confidence. DeBouvier said: "One is not born a woman, one becomes one", and that should be the mantra of all of us. We become women by being women. Trial and error until we get it right. It's in our minds and in our hearts and we must believe.
This past weekend I was picking up a friend at JFK and was determined to meet her as a woman. Driving across the Whitestone Bridge the radio news reader was talking about the "visual profiling" program recently put into place by the TSA and I thought "Oh s***!". But I was determined and I pressed on regardless.
At JFK I learned her flight would be at least an hour late and I knew I couldn't spend the time locked in a stall in the ladies room, so I checked my appearence, recalled Helen Reddy's song, and found a comfortable seat and a good magazine.
My concerns were for naught, looking at so many of the women there with me. Really, some were dressed as absolute slobs, and looked horrible. I was in my NYC summer casual attire: longish cotton skirt and tailored tee; sandals and a light sweater draped across my shoulders; peasant looking jewelry and light makeup. My hair and boobs are my own and my look is generally that of a plain looking 60ish, never really grew up lady.
Her plane fnally arrived and leaving the terminal she turned to me and said " You look mahvelous, Dahling". And she's a GG.
We must start looking like a woman and truly believing the woman is who we are. Getting by in life is so much of a head game; we have to have it inside to succeed on the outside. Passing as a woman requires attitude and more attitude. Be it for a few hours, a few days, or  the rest of your life, a transgendered person has to believe in what they're doing and who they are, and they must know their abilities, and their limitations.