Before I get a bunch of stuff thrown at me let me put forth a scenario.

Lets say someone is chronically depressed, and though they want to live no matter what they do they still suffer. They do what they are supposed to do and get help, even spend time in a psych ward but nothing helps. So while they feel that they still want to live, suicide seems to be the only option. Given that, would it be ok for them to go ahead with it? If you say no, then the question become: do we have the right to tell someone they should live, even force them to, when they don't want to anymore?

Yes, I am describing myself in this question. No i'm not planning suicide, the question stands as a purely philosophical one.

Quotesuicide seems to be the only option

'Seems" is part of the sickness. There are always other options.

Quote from: lisagurl on November 13, 2008, 09:31:44 AM

Quotesuicide seems to be the only option

'Seems" is part of the sickness. There are always other options.

So you don't think that suicide should be allowed, even in that situation? In that case, what do you think about forcing people to live against their will?

Personally? Making people live against their will is unconstitutinal. Forcing people to live is similar to forcing someone who is in chronic pain to live without painkillers. Forcing someone to live is more selfish then someone wanting to die.

It is not forcing it is protecting them from their selves. Now if a terminally ill person is in pain and has no chance of recovery and can not benefit themselves or society then to reduce the hardships on everyone perhaps with that person's request a planned pain free sleep can be administrated by a qualified doctor.

The facts are that our brain is not always the best judge of our bodies. You can be creative and contribute to yourself and society for many years to come. Life is too short as it is. I have been in your shoes myself in my 20's, I am glad for the help I received. One of the things I learned is to keep a daily routine of eating and sleeping. Stop any mind altering drugs including caffeine, alcohol, aspirin, smoking and anything else you take for pain.  See a qualified doctor and get a full checkup both mind and body. Exercise at least an hour each day outside in the sun.

The real problem is you have not found someone to help you.

To date, I've known two people who killed themselves due to chronic pain that medical science of their times (1980 and 2008) could not correct. There is no way I could have told those persons to continue suffering. Who am I to say how another should suffer?

I believe that people should have the right to choose whether or not the should live. Perhaps the two of whom I spoke could have been spared if they had enough money. That is a key factor in medical care: how much relief can one afford. Alternatives might indeed exist, for a price.

With any issue, though, I perceive it in shades of gray (hence my screen name). There might be those who perhaps should not make such decisions on their own. I don't think it's an issue I could, or would, decide for another person.

I've seen the results of suicide. I've never seen so much pain and devestation to a family. It truely is a horrid thing. Occasionally I talk to very old people on the help line I voluntarily work at and they are still grieving, still in pain from a family member completing suicide when they were young. The pain in their voices, the way it has colored their whole lives. It sends out ripples of pain all around, through family, friends and the community and they never go away. Often people commit suicide in response.

Certainly I think someone has a right to die if that is what they want, but I don't think it is ever ok. It is never a good thing. In terms on impact on all those associated with the person it would be better is somone raped, tortured and murdered them instead of them completing suicide. The impact is that huge. It is just so sad.

In answer to your question I don't think anyone has the right to stop someone completing suicide but we all have the right to try. It would be inhuman not to try stop it. (I think euthenasia is a different thing)

Quote from: Nicky on November 13, 2008, 04:21:36 PM
In terms on impact on all those associated with the person it would be better is somone raped, tortured and murdered them instead of them completing suicide.

Because knowing their loved one died a slow, agonizing death would somehow mitigate the grief? I don't understand this at all.

Except in the case of terminal illness I do not believe the depressed or otherwise mentally ill should be allowed to commit suicide. On the other hand we could do a lot more to help them, beginning with examing our attitudes which cause us to have ideas like the one above.

Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 13, 2008, 04:56:19 PM

Quote from: Nicky on November 13, 2008, 04:21:36 PM
In terms on impact on all those associated with the person it would be better is somone raped, tortured and murdered them instead of them completing suicide.

Because knowing their loved one died a slow, agonizing death would somehow mitigate the grief? I don't understand this at all.

Ah, sorry. Bad gramma. I meant instead of that person dieing by suicide they had been raped, tortured, murdered - the impact on those around them would not be as great. Just establishing a yardstick. This is in my own experience in terms of listening to grieving people. All I mean is I think suicide is really really bad on those that know the person.

The problem is that whilst it may be the "right" choice for the person, is it the right choice for the friends and family that he/she leaves behind? What if you ask the question "Is there any reason that someone close to you could justifiably commit suicide?"

I think the point is that our Judeo-Christian values tell us it is an irredeemable sin to take one's own life. Family and those who care for us are truly concerned about the well being of our souls in whatever after life is to follow. Then there is the societal shame attached when a member of the family commits suicide. We all know "crazy" runs in the genes.

One might choose to look upon it with the thought that the person who committed suicide is no longer in pain and aside from what your faith may tell you about what happens after you die, you don't know for sure that killing yourself is an enternal sentence to the Lake of Fire, or whatever bad thing you attach to it.

Why would you insist that someone live in pain, emotioinal or physical, just because you either want the knowledge that their soul will wind up where you imagine it should or you are unable to deal with the shame you will put on yourself? Surely it is no less selfish to demand that the person who is hopeless go on living a hopeless and painful life just so a few people don't have to suffer the inconvenience of adjusting their thinking.

Should we encourage a culture of suicide as is done in other parts of the world? Absolutely not. Our value of life is what defines us and it makes us a hell of a lot better than other people in my opinion. But then the inablity to obtain needed health care is a real slap in the face to that value, almost makes it hypocritical. People are dying of easily treatable illnesses everyday not because the treatment is unavailable or too expensive but because policy makers set the system up that way. The case of the dental abcess is one point; if you get an infection that leads to blood poisoning due to a problem with your teeth and are unable to obtain emergency treatment on your own you might very easily if die if the public hospital in your area has decided not to do dental. It happens more often than you might believe.

I'm getting to the age where I can very easily see myself alone and unable to do the simplest of things to take care of myself in not too many years. What if I were to wind up in a homeless shelter or a nursing home being abused? I might decide I'm done doing it anymore and I'd like the option of checking out in such a case. Now, I'm sure that won't happen...but it could.

I have a brother who I worry about. If he were gone I would grieve for a time. But if he were to commit suicide I would not feel worse than if he had died by other means. I know what he's been through and he's older than me so I know what things I might face in 10 years or so.

This is a difficult subject but generally speaking I think most people misunderstand death. It might actually be a good thing, who knows?

It seems the only real reasons for not allowing it are religious and selfish-ness.

You are perfectly willing to put a pet out it's misery but not a person? How sane is that.
I'm sorry, but this is one instance where religion really misses the boat.



If a person wants to, and is perfectly rational and sane in making the judgment, I see no reason not to allow it. 

There is also other things to consider, this would eliminate a lot of messy suicides, no more family finding dad with his head blown off by a shotgun, mommy laying in her own feces, or jr. hanging by a rope. Not to mention the nutters who make a big show of it, or create problems like stepping in front of a commuter train. All of which cause problems for many other people (cleanup, mental, and more).

If a person truly is determined and wants to, they will.

Who are you to judge, and who is to say this was not God's plan? You can say the book is his word, but it has been passed down through mankind and we know how accurately we keep history. I also do not see how God would judge someone harshly for not being capable of handling the pain.

If you think you can live with any pain you can experience, you have not experienced real physical pain yet.

Interesting responses all. it is interesting though not surprising that a few have taken the religious reasoning against suicide. Not to say this is wrong, just interesting. It also can add an aspect to the question being asked. For instance, are we as a nation forcing the majority religion upon the minor religions in our country? Using myself as an example, I'm a wiccan. So the arguments used such as going to hell and such I would consider invalid, as they do not pertain to my religion. Other religions could take similar viewpoints.

So this leaves a core question. Is there any reason besides religion that denies the validity of the right to take one's own life?

Quote from: Terra on November 14, 2008, 04:40:46 AM
So this leaves a core question. Is there any reason besides religion that denies the validity of the right to take one's own life?

Selfishness on the part of those wanting the person to stick around despite living in pain.
(you did not ask for good ones)

Quote from: Terra on November 13, 2008, 08:34:32 AM
Before I get a bunch of stuff thrown at me let me put forth a scenario.

Lets say someone is chronically depressed, and though they want to live no matter what they do they still suffer. They do what they are supposed to do and get help, even spend time in a psych ward but nothing helps. So while they feel that they still want to live, suicide seems to be the only option. Given that, would it be ok for them to go ahead with it? If you say no, then the question become: do we have the right to tell someone they should live, even force them to, when they don't want to anymore?

Yes, I am describing myself in this question. No i'm not planning suicide, the question stands as a purely philosophical one.

No i believe suicide should be stopped. Nature and society has devised so many other ways of killing us off that we owe it to ourselves it find ways in the meantime of stopping that.

The real issue is should you let depression talk for you?

Quote from: Vanna on November 14, 2008, 05:20:10 AM
No i believe suicide should be stopped. Nature and society has devised so many other ways of killing us off that we owe it to ourselves it find ways in the meantime of stopping that.

I find this thinking intriguing considering that the planet is clearly showing signs of over population and is fighting back against us already. We are obviously not in tune with nature yet you want to fight even harder to keep tipping that balance further in a direction we clearly cannot win.

Quote from: Emme on November 14, 2008, 05:52:16 AM
3) Food shortage.  While there are areas of the world facing a starvation crisis, food really isn't an issue.  Money, profit and greed, yes.  Actually producing the food in ample amounts, not so much.

Our oceans have been clearly over-fished, it has been shown we cannot keep increasing production of meat and many crops are being effected by global warming. How much longer we can keep oing at teh current rate of growth or even the current state is questionable at best.

No my point was i believe in the santity of human life, we only have the one i know of and it makes me cry to see it wasted.

Yes i agree with your points Emme but i have walked both side of that fence, being a suicidee and now doing my best to help others in the same position.

Altimately as a race we have choice, i have never and would never if you ever knew me in real life impose my will on others.

However if i see someone in pain and real danger i have an issue with standing by and watching people suffer. If one you have helped they still decide and want to die that is free will and thats all you can do in life.

Im a caring person i cant help that.

I feel personally that our right to choose is the most fundamental thing that makes us human. Will, or "Free Will", if you will is what separates us from, as far as we know, all the rest of the animal kingdom. If somebody chooses to end his or her life, I have no right to prevent that - preventing it is coercion, which is violence, which is wrong. Which is not to say I am going to stand idly by, but trying to convince a person and providing alternatives is not the same as locking that person up in a padded cell.

There are situations where suicide is a valid choice. Deciding which situations those might be are determinations we can only make for ourselves - nobody else.

~Simone.

Then there are those who do not have the will to do it themselves and they got out in society and break laws do drugs and prostitution put themselves in the most dangerous situations and challenge the cops to kill them . It is also suicide but forcing someone else to do it. Then people will have compassion for them? what happened to the compassion when they are alive?

Quote from: lisagurl on November 14, 2008, 11:38:21 AM
Then there are those who do not have the will to do it themselves and they got out in society and break laws do drugs and prostitution put themselves in the most dangerous situations and challenge the cops to kill them . It is also suicide but forcing someone else to do it. Then people will have compassion for them? what happened to the compassion when they are alive?

Part of that is trying to avoid the taboo of suicide. Afterall, if a cop kills you, even if you wanted to die, is it really considered a suicide by the masses?

Quote from: Leslie Ann on November 14, 2008, 04:46:53 AM

Quote from: Terra on November 14, 2008, 04:40:46 AM
So this leaves a core question. Is there any reason besides religion that denies the validity of the right to take one's own life?

Selfishness on the part of those wanting the person to stick around despite living in pain.
(you did not ask for good ones)

You are right, I did not say they had to be 'good' ones. This is a matter of opinion, as are most things that society considers 'normal' and 'moral'.



The problem is how we try to 'help' the people who actively pursue suicide. I have heard, and experienced, cases of people being sent to psych wards to be observed. In my own case, it was probably among the worst 3 days of my life. Not because I had tried to kill myself, but because my treatment was so horrible. I wasn't a druggie or self mutilator or anything else that put me in the usual boxes. So for hours a day I had to sit around doing nothing but sit. I couldn't even sleep away the day until noon and we got up at 6am.

i saw a counselor once, and a social worker twice. This was how much effort they put into me to try and figure out why I would kill myself. I hadn't even tried to kill myself yet, never mind the people who might have actually tried and failed. After those three days I was discharged and led outside the gate, they didn't even try to see if I had a home or get me shelter. All in all I came to believe psych wards were to encourage suiciders to get it right the first time. I honestly believe that those three days were some of my worst days on this planet, and actually made me want to commit suicide even more.

So personal experiences aside, I feel that if we cannot provide resources to help prevent suicide. If we wish to make it illegal and a felony. If we even wish to brand people, and i've seen this done in families, a coward and disown them. If we wish to force people to live and not give them reasons to live, how can it be said they are selfish and uncaring to loved ones?

I would go so far to say that the people who force the ones to live are selfish. We are pack rats in nature, we cherish and assign values to things. So when someone wants to die, to take themselves out of our possession, we rebel against it. otherwise we are forced to give up something we cherish, and most of us have problems with that.