Quote from: Truth Seeker on November 26, 2008, 10:55:03 AM
But would I accept it? No. The only kind of suicide I can condone is that which ends a painful, terminal illness, and even then I would encourage they learn to deal with the pain. But a mercy killing is still just a mercy killing, even if suicidal, and that can be acceptible in my opinion. In any other situation? No, I would not accept it, and I would try to talk them out of it.

Define terminal illness and pain.

Mental anguish can be far worse than a lot of physical pain and it can be terminal. Just because help is sometimes available, does not mean they have access to it, or the ability to get themselves to that help.

As for trying to get them to live with the pain, that can be read as being selfish on your part, but also, and more importantly, I have to wonder if you have ever truly suffered.

I do however agree that a lot of suicides are pointless, especially younger ones and at the same time, who are we to judge. You don't know what that person may have been going through, and what the suicide is blamed on, may have only been the last straw.


Also, you should not place blame or fault anyone because they were not strong enough.

QuoteAlso, you should not place blame or fault anyone because they were not strong enough.

Survival of the fittest?

Quote from: Leslie Ann on November 26, 2008, 03:54:40 PM
Define terminal illness and pain.

Terminal as in terminal. That which eventually kills you, and pain as a symptom of that.

That's the only situation which can even remotely be considered hopeless, in my opinion.

Quote from: Leslie Ann on November 26, 2008, 03:54:40 PM
Mental anguish can be far worse than a lot of physical pain and it can be terminal.

No it can't. Except perhaps through some psychosomatic effect like broken heart syndrome. People don't drop dead from being very sad.

Quote from: Leslie Ann on November 26, 2008, 03:54:40 PM
Just because help is sometimes available, does not mean they have access to it, or the ability to get themselves to that help.

True, but the capability for helping oneself is always there, even when it seems impossible.

Quote from: Leslie Ann on November 26, 2008, 03:54:40 PM
As for trying to get them to live with the pain, that can be read as being selfish on your part, but also, and more importantly, I have to wonder if you have ever truly suffered.

If you're going to try and make this personal then I will not waste my time discussing this with you. I will only respond to mature arguments, not juvenile distractions, what I have or have not experienced has no relevance in this discussion.

There is nothing selfish about trying to get someone to make peace with themselves save from the fact that I don't like to see someone suffer, nevertheless the deed itself is by definition, selfless. There are many people out there suffering from agonizing terminal diseases, who are living their lives to the fullest right as we speak.

I'm sure they'd be glad to know that had you been their friend, you would have safety given up on them the moment things got tough. Me, I like to encourage positivity.

Quote from: Leslie Ann on November 26, 2008, 03:54:40 PM
I do however agree that a lot of suicides are pointless, especially younger ones and at the same time, who are we to judge. You don't know what that person may have been going through, and what the suicide is blamed on, may have only been the last straw.

I'm sorry, are you saying that you judge "a lot of suicides" to be pointless, or we should not judge any suicides to be pointless? You see I got confused at the part where you blatantly contradicted yourself.

Maybe it's only acceptable to say that suicides are pointless when we are maintaining a safe distance from any reprisal by refusing to actually define exactly which ones are pointless and which are acceptable? It's much easier to judge others when you are straddling the fence.

Quote from: Leslie Ann on November 26, 2008, 03:54:40 PM
Also, you should not place blame or fault anyone because they were not strong enough.

I have not. But if I had, at least it's not as bad as accusing someone of doing something they clearly didn't do, in order to set a negative slant on their involvement in the debate from that point on. Yes I'm very glad I didn't do that, because then it would look like I was being childish and manipulative.

See, I can be subtle too.

Now let's raise the bar of this conversation back up to the adult level shall we.


Truth Seeker

Leslie said "I do however agree that a lot of suicides are pointless", not "appear pointless", this clearly implies the latter meaning.

Perhaps I didn't understand her intended meaning, but if so that's because she didn't word it properly.

Quote from: Emme on November 26, 2008, 05:11:56 PM
It's pointless for people to serve me smoked oysters.  I won't eat them.  I don't judge those who serve them to me though.  It's the same principle.  The fact that you're nitpicking over word choices and trying to split hairs is probably a good indication we should all agree to disagree and let the matter rest.

I agree. That's why personally I would never judge anyone for their beliefs. I wouldn't, for example, begin making personal judgments about them or their experiences based on their beliefs or be dismissive of their arguments purely because I don't agree with their conclusions.

If you are pro suicide or against suicide, you're cool by me. I don't judge. My personal beliefs however, are against suicide. I hope that doesn't offend anyone or make them feel insecure, but I don't appologize if it does.


Truth Seeker

Quote from: Nichole on November 26, 2008, 10:11:23 AM
"Mistaken assumption" and "the esay way out"?

I tend to agree with being against suicide, Seeker.

But I think there are some a priori presumtions at work in your thinking as well.

As you point out, quite correctly, there's no evidence that suicde will release one from whatever pain and trouble currently affects the life of the person in question.

I'm rather conflicted, however, where you find the "evidence" that the choice of suicide is "mistaken" or "easy." I'd imagine that until one dies one wouldn't be privy to that knowledge, that she'd only have a preference based on her own view of life and living and the imagination of what might ensue afterwards, provided, of course, there is an afterwards other than that which is inherent in the equivalence of energy and matter and the scientific fact that both are, as best we can discover, eternal.


Nichole

While you're naval gazing about suicide, Nichole, please remember that under the law you have an obligation as a mental health professional to take action to prevent the act.  Failing to take reasonable measures to prevent a suicide would at the very least subject you to liability under malpractice law and depending on the degree of negligence, professional sanction as well.

Suicide and Clinical Practice, Chapter 9, P. 148

Gosh, Claire, I wonder how I ever managed to do my job before you started reading my posts?

Let's take a look at point one in your cited reference. Hmmm, professional relationship .... Lemme see, Claire, any professional relationships with anyone on these boards? Nope, none.

Case closed.

N~

More times than most, people go ahead with it with out saying a word.
Then its too late to do anything.
Usually when some one says 'im going too kill myself' or 'i want too' means, they feel like dying but want a chance of help weather they want to live or not.
My theory is, you cant be there 24/7.

Quote from: mr_marc on December 09, 2008, 02:10:42 PM
More times than most, people go ahead with it with out saying a word.
Then its too late to do anything.
Usually when some one says 'im going too kill myself' or 'i want too' means, they feel like dying but want a chance of help weather they want to live or not.
My theory is, you cant be there 24/7.

Actually most cases have a history of giving hits to suicidal thoughts. however most people assume they are joking or would never actually do it.

Truth Seeker, I understand what you are saying, and I can see why you and others might think like that. However don't forget that a pain one person can overcome may be insurmountable by another. Using myself as an example and a n extreme one at that, I was raped. I got over it mostly as time went by, but another of my friends who is a genetic female couldn't. She failed her attempt and was locked up.

Pain is pain, and as I mentioned I have chronic depression. I have suffered from it since I was a child. In fact I remember several times growing up and having people worried about me being depressed when I thought I was having a great day. Would this be terminal, and would it be permissible for someone like me to commit suicide?

What is it that makes one case a mercy killing and not suicide, and therefore not wrong? Who makes these decisions? Who would have to suffer to what point before they would get the green light?

Life is a gift, I won't argue that.I also won't argue that a person who dies by their own hand is tragic. But what I will argue is that it isn't their choice to make. A person's life is their own, and sometimes a person chooses to take their own life. It is their life to take if you argue it is their life to take charge of. I still don't see anyone really pointing out a contradiction to this statement.

Quote from: lisagurl on November 13, 2008, 09:31:44 AM
'Seems" is part of the sickness. There are always other options.

Not if you are at the point of suicide, there is only two, life or death. It's that simple, and everything else doesn't exist. The "options" are the one thing people who haven't been there assume those who are there see. Nothing could be farther from reality and the truth.

But would I talk someone out of suicide. Having been there, yes I would, but not because there are options, but to understand them. Suicide isn't about the person, but their circumstances. And it's not about the others or worse the survivors, it's about the one and their world.

And unless you're prepared to be their friend for a long time, sometimes almost a lifetime, you should be careful what you do. Abandonment by trusted friends only hurts more. They need to know you are always there and a friend to trust and listen.

Just a few thoughts.

Quote from: Terra on December 13, 2008, 03:00:43 AM
Pain is pain, and as I mentioned I have chronic depression. I have suffered from it since I was a child. In fact I remember several times growing up and having people worried about me being depressed when I thought I was having a great day. Would this be terminal, and would it be permissible for someone like me to commit suicide?

Have you seen a specialist? Just curious. Have you explored Dysthymia? It's chronic depression, and sometimes lifelong, and usually genetic (runs in families). There are some excellent books on the subject if you're interested.

It's also easy to get a double depression, where you suffer depression on top your chronic depression. And from personal experience, being Dysthymic, it does lead to the possibility of suicide. You need to understand the symptoms leading to more severe depression to adjust, to what I call "tread water" (meaning life) until it passes.

Good luck.

QuoteNot if you are at the point of suicide, there is only two, life or death. It's that simple, and everything else doesn't exist

If a person refuses to see reality that is a problem with education. It seems our culture is willing and most times rather agree with lies than hurt feelings with the truth. People then get to live in a delusion not having a reality check.

Quote from: lisagurl on December 29, 2008, 11:48:27 AM
If a person refuses to see reality that is a problem with education. It seems our culture is willing and most times rather agree with lies than hurt feelings with the truth. People then get to live in a delusion not having a reality check.

Define reality.
You define it by what you see and experience, everyone's is different. Many are simply unable to see reality as you do, or as most people do. It does not make their reality any less valid.

Education and drugs cannot solve everything, some of these very things contribute to suicide rates.

QuoteDefine reality.

The one that everyone agrees on not what is inside you. The physical world around you that has natural laws.

Now the inside reality is a dream made up by a mind that is not conscious of its own deception. If you do a self check and requirer evidence of what you are experiencing then you can understand what a fool you mind truthfully is.

Quote from: lisagurl on December 30, 2008, 05:05:23 PM

QuoteDefine reality.

The one that everyone agrees on not what is inside you.

No two people see it the same.
And going by the general consensus does not mean it is reality, only that they view it as such. At one time everyone thought the universe revolved around us, that was proven wrong.

QuoteNo two people see it the same.

That is why it is the one everyone one agrees on. Plato said you need to measure, have weight, and calculation then you apply rational reason. What you have is reality whether you are alive or not. Reality is what is without human perception distorting it.

Quote from: Terra on November 13, 2008, 08:34:32 AM
Before I get a bunch of stuff thrown at me let me put forth a scenario.

Lets say someone is chronically depressed, and though they want to live no matter what they do they still suffer. They do what they are supposed to do and get help, even spend time in a psych ward but nothing helps. So while they feel that they still want to live, suicide seems to be the only option. Given that, would it be ok for them to go ahead with it? If you say no, then the question become: do we have the right to tell someone they should live, even force them to, when they don't want to anymore?

Yes, I am describing myself in this question. No i'm not planning suicide, the question stands as a purely philosophical one.

I felt like you when i was 12 and ended up in a mental hospital for two 4 months periods. Well one was for wearing womens clothes. Time went by and i still suffer but i have experienced many things. I know i could have done myself in but i was at the same time curious and also didn't want to hurt my family. I am now in my 50's and last night i cried and begged God to take me but i know that i must not do it myself. I know i must hang in there and continue to keep experiencing the many things i have. I have been able to help many and now i know how much worse the world would be if i didn't stay around. People like you and me are needed very much to help the rest of the world have a sense of humanity. Many times when i was in the mental hospital we would always say we were the normal ones and the rest outside were the crazy ones. We knew we had a heart and we knew that heart was needed to bring some balance in a world that is always leaning in a negative direction. So i say hang around because even if you do take your body out your spirit will still be here watching the world go by and then you will be wishing you could be here to help make a real change. That would be a terible place to be without a shell / body unable to bring peace and love to others and only being a little voice in others ears hoping they hear you as you try to guide them in their earthly lives.

hugs love Danielle

EDITED TO ADD: I have a dear friend alexandrea from perth australia who i helped in 2000 with a place to stay while she was in Portland getting GRS with toby meltzer. She then went to DR O and had FFS then she went back to perth and within 6 months took her life. Her mom then took her life within 20 minutes of her daughters death. They both talk to me and try to guide others about what its like being on the other side. They wish none of us would take our lives. They wait for another body in some strange way or frame of time to come back and do it right. When we die we only shed our shells we are still here but then its eternity without being able to reach people except for people who can hear. Jesus says let those who can hear hear.. I hear and i share and i tell you what they tell me and i am just the vehicle the words are not mine so i surrender and know that the words i say are meant for me but if they speak to another then know that is from above and i am just the vehicle for their message to you.

Quote from: lisagurl on January 01, 2009, 09:55:28 AM

QuoteNo two people see it the same.

That is why it is the one everyone one agrees on. Plato said you need to measure, have weight, and calculation then you apply rational reason. What you have is reality whether you are alive or not. Reality is what is without human perception distorting it.

We seem to have lost the point.

You are more or less trying to force everyone to conform to "your reality". Some people cannot, do not and will not regardless of drugs and education. Who is to say they should.

And who is to say that if they do come to see "reality" the way you do that they will be any better off. Sometimes reality is the very problem.

Quoteyour reality

Not my reality I am dead remember just as everyone else. Remember reality is there regardless of humans. You seem to have a hard time understanding the concept of reality outside your own head or mine.

Quote from: Leslie Ann on January 01, 2009, 02:14:02 PM

Quote from: lisagurl on January 01, 2009, 09:55:28 AM

QuoteNo two people see it the same.

That is why it is the one everyone one agrees on. Plato said you need to measure, have weight, and calculation then you apply rational reason. What you have is reality whether you are alive or not. Reality is what is without human perception distorting it.

We seem to have lost the point.

You are more or less trying to force everyone to conform to "your reality". Some people cannot, do not and will not regardless of drugs and education. Who is to say they should.

And who is to say that if they do come to see "reality" the way you do that they will be any better off. Sometimes reality is the very problem.

WISER BEYOND BOOK KNOWLEDGE  

Some people think all knowledge is found in a book

you will have to over look them