Quote from: tekla on December 05, 2008, 09:31:11 AM
A lack of tact to be sure * and what's that you were sayin' 'bout men being crass and inconsiderate??? *  but then again, she no doubt was not trained for that kind of tact either.  I mean we're only sort of checking the guy out, and making sure that he knows that we know that he is there.

What I had said, and maybe I wasn't very clear, was that it's a stereotype that men are crass and inconsiderate. I reject that stereotype out of hand as being false and sexist. I've been alive too long to believe it.

I have to work with rich (and I mean really, really rich) women a few times a year I know that no bunch of guys have 'inconsiderate' on any of them.

I think a lot of people, both men and women, are becoming more crass and inconsiderate =/

Probably my opinion is kind of skewed by the fact that I never felt like one, but from my jaunt in the world of clashing beers and wiry beards I do remember some unpleasant things. Mostly mentioned already, so I won't reiterate.
I guess it's the flipside of being assumed an airheaded idiot who's judged only on how good she looks, in the case of women.

Quote from: tekla on December 05, 2008, 09:31:11 AM
A lack of tact to be sure * and what's that you were sayin' 'bout men being crass and inconsiderate??? *  but then again, she no doubt was not trained for that kind of tact either.  I mean we're only sort of checking the guy out, and making sure that he knows that we know that he is there.

I can understand a parent wanting to be sure there aren't any ne'er-do-wells near kids, theirs or otherwise. But, what kind of training does a person need to be polite?

Well, it would seem, a lot more than most are getting, I'll vouch for that - though tact has never been a strong suit of mine to tell 'ya the truth. 

But 'ch know what?  I blame TV for making people so damn scared and paranoid that they see threats everywhere they look in the world, and its not the right threat at that.

It's all that StrangerDanger nonsense - in fact, if a child is molested, its gonna happen at home, by a member of his or her family.  That's what the stats say.

Quote from: tekla on December 05, 2008, 10:31:37 AM
Well, it would seem, a lot more than most are getting, I'll vouch for that - though tact has never been a strong suit of mine to tell 'ya the truth. 

But 'ch know what?  I blame TV for making people so damn scared and paranoid that they see threats everywhere they look in the world, and its not the right threat at that.

It's all that StrangerDanger nonsense - in fact, if a child is molested, its gonna happen at home, by a member of his or her family.  That's what the stats say.

True on all counts.

2. Hello! This is one reason why I'm struggling so much. Doctors say that a penis transplant is impossible, because there aren't "sufficient vein/arteries" in the female body. Bull->-bleeped-<-. I can prove otherwise. They won't give me a dick for political reasons.

By political, if you mean some sort of consensus on the part of the people that giving guys vaginas is OK, but somehow we ought not give girls dicks, I think you are wrong.  At the level that political decisions are made, no one cares about this at all.  Matter of fact, the federal and state governments have been pretty damn cooperative and non interfering in SRS and the like, (Though not all at the same speed, of course).  But, if you mean economic reasons, which in the USA are not much different from political reasons, then OK.

Great thread Shades!

Since I was a child, I've not conformed to male stereotypes, and except for high school where I was harassed for not doing so, rarely seem to encounter men who do conform to them.

Once upon a time before I realized that I was trans/androgyne, I read a book, Refusing to Be A Man: Essays on Sex and Justice by John Stoltenberg, which resonated deeply with me. I've always disliked the notion that "boys will be boys" somehow excuses men from offensive behaviors. As others have said, both men and women are capable of stupidity. Our society punishes one gender for the same thing that the other is applauded. I'm tired of the double standard. It is a prison for anyone regardless of gender.

Z

Quote from: Nicky on December 04, 2008, 01:48:36 PM
I'm approaching this a little from the perspective of the frustrations I feel because they see me as a man. I'm not sure a man would see all of these as an issue.

Crappy range of clothing and it is accepted that men don't care
Assuming that you are gay because you don't dress manly enough
People assume you drink beer
People talk over your head to your partner about how your house is decorated, and about cooking for the family. Then when you tell them that you do all the cooking they sort of give you that 'does not compute' look.
People assume that your partner does most of the parenting
Taking your little kids shopping, to the pool or to school people look around for your kids mum, or react as if you are a potential pedophile.

Nicky Im with you on this one. I look around my house and try to find thing's that have man attached to it and i can't find but a few thing's here and there. I just can not understand why it is ok for a women to call a man a freak for wearing skirt's and such. Do you hear men calling women freak's where they wear something from the men's section? That to and why is it that if a man is out by himself and he see's a little one that look's like they are lost or hurt and try's to hurt the first thing people think is that he's a freak or a pedehpile? I mean me I work as an EMT so it is in my training and nature to stop and help someone that look's like they need it. Me in my house I get stuck with most of the parenting stuff, but when the school calls about my kid's they call for my wife and not me. So for someone to say cause your a man you have all the card's in your favor they need to take a look again. It' use to be like that back in the day. Now it's the other way around. Just my .5 cent.

I've definitely had a lot of the thoughts posted here.  But then, I guess manhood is always frustrating for those who don't really feel like men or want to be men.  I wish I could be accepted as something other than a man, though I don't really feel like a woman, just more feminine than masculine.

I feel silly thinking about clothes at all, but I see women every day who are wearing things that make me think, "That's so {fun, beautiful, colorful, sexy, etc.}.  I wish I could wear that!"  I hate the pressure that men are under to act "normal," and the extremely narrow range of options this entails.  I guess appearance is a little bit important because it's an opportunity for expression.  You can tell people something about you before they even talk to you.  But men are restrained by social convention from saying too much.  I wish I could express myself publicly in a way that wouldn't be misunderstood.

I don't think it's so silly to worry about clothing, really.

In some places, clothing choices can lead to mockery and verbal abuse. Not all that terrible, but certainly no fun either. And, such things can really wear a person down after a while.

But in other places, clothing choices can lead to physical violence. It's hard (I think) to be able to tell if the place one is in at any given time harbors the latter or former risks.

One of the thing's that get me bent out of shape about being a man is all the bashing that happen's from women! I mean how many time's have you heard a women say they don't need a man cause all  men a worthless? I just get's under my skin so much that there a men out there that treat the opp. sex like nothing but a peace of meat! So what happen's you get a guy like me that might be a little different from most men and would actually treat a women with respect and dignity like I would like to get from her and she thinks I'm a perv or something cause I wear heel's or a skirt and might act a little softer than most men, or she may be cool with it and park me in the friend zone. I just don't get it! Like I told my partner I said "Jusr cause I may wear a skirt from time to time does not make me gay!" I said "that make's me open minded and willing to try new thing's!" The other thing that get's under my skin is the fact that a women can go into her employer and wear anything they want and nothing would ever be said! Take wear I work for example! I work as an EMT (Emergancy Medical Technician) the women are aloud to wear one set of ear ring's in each ear, wear make up of course, and paint there nail's and such! A guy on the other hand can't even think about it! I mean my feeling is that if a women can wear ear ring's and makeup up and nail polish why couldn't a man? I mean after all we all do the same job! Hell a guy wear I work can't even have longer than what would be considered normal. Ya could I take it to court and fight about it? Sure but then I wouldn't have a job! So I suck it up and don't agree with it. I would love to see the day wear a man could walk into a job wearing a skirt and heel's if he want's and not have to worry about hearing "Go change or you don't have a job anymore!" I mean come on if you told that to a women all hell would break loose! These are just a few of the double standard's that just drive me up the wall! Sorry for the rant!

Speaking from the other side of the line:

I'm woman-bodied and I've always felt that men are more boxed in by society than women. And yes, more the butt of jokes and offensive comments that they're not supposed to be offended by.

I've found that women can be much more cruel and mean-spirited.

-- Luke, who likes to hang with the guys

Quote from: thescrappycoco on October 29, 2009, 10:43:13 AM
One of the thing's that get me bent out of shape about being a man is all the bashing that happen's from women! I mean how many time's have you heard a women say they don't need a man cause all  men a worthless? I just get's under my skin so much that there a men out there that treat the opp. sex like nothing but a peace of meat! So what happen's you get a guy like me that might be a little different from most men and would actually treat a women with respect and dignity like I would like to get from her and she thinks I'm a perv or something cause I wear heel's or a skirt and might act a little softer than most men, or she may be cool with it and park me in the friend zone. I just don't get it! Like I told my partner I said "Jusr cause I may wear a skirt from time to time does not make me gay!" I said "that make's me open minded and willing to try new thing's!" The other thing that get's under my skin is the fact that a women can go into her employer and wear anything they want and nothing would ever be said! Take wear I work for example! I work as an EMT (Emergancy Medical Technician) the women are aloud to wear one set of ear ring's in each ear, wear make up of course, and paint there nail's and such! A guy on the other hand can't even think about it! I mean my feeling is that if a women can wear ear ring's and makeup up and nail polish why couldn't a man? I mean after all we all do the same job! Hell a guy wear I work can't even have longer than what would be considered normal. Ya could I take it to court and fight about it? Sure but then I wouldn't have a job! So I suck it up and don't agree with it. I would love to see the day wear a man could walk into a job wearing a skirt and heel's if he want's and not have to worry about hearing "Go change or you don't have a job anymore!" I mean come on if you told that to a women all hell would break loose! These are just a few of the double standard's that just drive me up the wall! Sorry for the rant!

I hear you on all of this. Not all women are automatically male bashers. And some appreciate a nice guy.

You need to find someone that appreciates you for who you are. I'm not even going to comment on the current dating scene, and all that entails. Bleach. You will most likely not find what you are looking for there.

So, with that said - where might you meet someone that will appreciate you?

My idea is volunteer work. This attracts people with a kind heart, to a common/shared cause. ASPCA, etc.

I'd guess that your prime area to find someone compatible with you would be in this area.

I wish you the best of luck.

most of the "all men are scum" type of comments I've heard have come from females who have just brocken up with their boyfriend as a way of releasing anger/hurt toward anyone like that being bio male and sitting through girls venting like this was never easy but I tried not to take it personaly but it always made me feel fragile and If anything hurtfull was said that was focused at me specificaly then I'd need a good cry otherwise I'd assume I wasn't included in the whole "All men" rant after all nothing being decribed applied to me. 

Interesting thread.  Where I work the pay rates are based on years of service, not gender, so there is no discrimination that way.
On the other hand the staff are 80% female, and if someone can't find something, they will be accused of having a "boy's look".  If I say something about that, they just don't get it.

"Society allows us to make choices regarding working. Women can choose to work full time, work part time and have a family, or not work and have a family. Men have choices too. They can work full time, work full time or work full time."

By the way riven , nice legs!!

Ah, yes.. Sexism towards men..

Well; it happens a lot. It does, that! But.. It's supposed to be okay, since society still has this image of 'the man in charge,' and it's okay to be rude about the person in charge.
The problem is: 'The man in charge' is outdated in most countries. Most countries have pay-checks based on years of employment and status, not on gender.

And.. Oh, I'd love to rant and rant and rant... But other people have already said everything I could rant about.. So..

Meh; I think what ticks me off most is that feeling of 'All men... Hey, wait a minute! I don't want to be in there! I shouldn't be in there! That's not me! Gemme out!'

Interesting series of posts. I have spent a good portion of my life studying "sterotyped gender role socialization" and trying to help men especially but also women live outside of the stereotypes. And I agree there are many common and accepted "male" behaviors that are obnoxious - but not universal. Not all men are the same. Sometimes it is annoying - 17 years ago when my son was an infant, there were not many diaper changing tables in mens' rooms, nor were there many "family" restrooms. Now I see them all over. When I took my son to "Mommy and Me" there was no "Daddy and Me," but they changed the name because of me. One mother of a friend freaked out that I was holding my infant son.

More seriously, we do no one a favor by excusing not ok behavior because of gender. Nor is it so incredibly extraordinary that a man can parent. Nor is it fair or useful to tar all men with the same broad and negative brush - as people often do.

Why am I posting? In part because after all thie time I spent trying to change men, I had to admit as did some one else earlier, that even in a group of polite, sensible, compassionate men, I do not feel I belong. So I am left with some uncertainty. Have I been trying to help people change the wrong things? I doubt I've done harm, I do not use coercion or trickery. But I am coming to realize I am not like most other "genetic men." I am most comfortable with the gender rebels of all stripes.

The older I get, the more questions and the fewer answers I have.