I do more manly stuff than most men (hunting, familying, concreting, building...), but it does not count if you wear lipgloss. 

My perspective does not alternate. It is my own 'androgyne' perpective.

Quote from: Pica Pica on January 06, 2009, 02:47:13 PM
now i have the physical stuff, and i protect those i love and care for, i provide enough for myself but I still don't see myself as a man. I spose it's because I don't set much importance in those things as much as I do in connections and creations and imagining stuff, as long as i provide enough to survive.

that's not what i meant either. i'm not a man because i provided the husband role. guess you just know when you're a man and when you're not.

In fact, its something that most people never think about or question.

Quote from: Nero on January 06, 2009, 02:48:35 PM
guess the point i'm trying to very clumsily get to is does an androgyne alternate between the male and female perspective?

At a guess, they are able to understand/appreciate things from both perspectives, though they don't subscribe to either of them.
Like a Soccer player can appreciate both American Football and Rugby, but plays neither.

I think what Pica and others are saying is that for them, it's not a male or female perspective, but a human perspective.

For me, male is just an identity, not what I do, how I dress, how I speak, or what I say. It's my perception of myself (and luckily, now, others' perception of me). I would still be male if I dressed in Paris Hilton CFM boots, a miniskirt, and wore makeup.

Dennis

Quote from: Nero on January 06, 2009, 02:51:02 PM
guess you just know when you're a man and when you're not.

i guess so to. Yeah, it's more an integrated holistic thing androgyne-ness. Or at least the way I have it, bi-genders go the opposite way. There's not much of 'this is man' and 'this is woman'. I think the main reason it sounds like it, and we talk like it, is because it's easier to talk about in that way.

Quote from: Dennis on January 06, 2009, 03:03:29 PM
I would still be male if I dressed in Paris Hilton CFM boots, a miniskirt, and wore makeup.

That's Hot!

We want photos Dennis.

I'm the same as many have said here--neither male nor female.

That said, I've always failed to exhibit "typical" female behaviors, while exhibiting a lot of "typical" male behaviors. If I could see myself on a spectrum, I'd consider myself "neutral-male" meaning I lean just slightly to the male side. Obviously I don't lean far enough to consider myself male, although I feel I fit in a lot better with males than with females in most situations.

Quote from: Zeo on January 06, 2009, 03:48:40 PM
I'm the same as many have said here--neither male nor female.

That said, I've always failed to exhibit "typical" female behaviors, while exhibiting a lot of "typical" male behaviors. If I could see myself on a spectrum, I'd consider myself "neutral-male" meaning I lean just slightly to the male side. Obviously I don't lean far enough to consider myself male, although I feel I fit in a lot better with males than with females in most situations.

Are you male or female bodied? I ask cause the female bodied androgynes tend towards the masculine and vice versa.

Quote from: Nero on January 06, 2009, 03:55:01 PM

Quote from: Zeo on January 06, 2009, 03:48:40 PM
I'm the same as many have said here--neither male nor female.

That said, I've always failed to exhibit "typical" female behaviors, while exhibiting a lot of "typical" male behaviors. If I could see myself on a spectrum, I'd consider myself "neutral-male" meaning I lean just slightly to the male side. Obviously I don't lean far enough to consider myself male, although I feel I fit in a lot better with males than with females in most situations.

Are you male or female bodied? I ask cause the female bodied androgynes tend towards the masculine and vice versa.

Female bodied.

Quote from: Nero on January 06, 2009, 03:55:01 PM
Are you male or female bodied? I ask cause the female bodied androgynes tend towards the masculine and vice versa.

I think this is a good observation Nero. I guess if a female bodies andro leant towards the fem then they would probably consider themselves women? It seems to be the contrast that makes us ping. Or maybe in rejecting the position our birth sex delegates us we naturaly gravitate towards the 'other'. Dunno, any thoughts?

Seems to me that those in the complete neutral identify as the neutral and not androgyne

Quote from: Nicky on January 06, 2009, 04:19:52 PM

Quote from: Nero on January 06, 2009, 03:55:01 PM
Are you male or female bodied? I ask cause the female bodied androgynes tend towards the masculine and vice versa.

I think this is a good observation Nero. I guess if a female bodies andro leant towards the fem then they would probably consider themselves women? It seems to be the contrast that makes us ping. Or maybe in rejecting the position our birth sex delegates us we naturaly gravitate towards the 'other'. Dunno, any thoughts?

My guess is that as I came to the understanding of my androgyne-ness somewhat late, I lean towards the femminine because I've already experienced the male thing.

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on January 06, 2009, 04:22:29 PM
My guess is that as I came to the understanding of my androgyne-ness somewhat late, I lean towards the femminine because I've already experienced the male thing.

Could be. Maybe I am the same but I do feel quite a strong abhorance of my perceived maleness.

Interesting photo Nero! Just thought you could sneak that in didn't you.

Quote from: Nicky on January 06, 2009, 04:19:52 PM

Quote from: Nero on January 06, 2009, 03:55:01 PM
Are you male or female bodied? I ask cause the female bodied androgynes tend towards the masculine and vice versa.

I think this is a good observation Nero. I guess if a female bodies andro leant towards the fem then they would probably consider themselves women? It seems to be the contrast that makes us ping. Or maybe in rejecting the position our birth sex delegates us we naturaly gravitate towards the 'other'. Dunno, any thoughts?

I'd really agree with that.

In all honesty, I just see me as me. No gender, no nothing. But growing up it was quite clear that I wasn't the proper female I was expected to be. I didn't think there was anything wrong with being disinterested in my appearance and lacking a feminine sense of social grace and relations. It was the people around me who had a problem with this. As a result I started gravitating towards what is thought of as "male" since in many ways that fits me better.

There was a time when I thought I was a man in a woman's body, and that if I could just have a male body I'd be free to be me without anyone imposing expectations on me that I couldn't meet. However, I decided that I'm not really male either, and the means to make myself male would be way more complicated than I desire. I tolerate my female parts, and so I don't see a need to change them. They just don't represent who I am. If it were possible to have a genderless body, I'd choose that.

But I definitely agree that it's the gender identity conflict (I have a female body, therefore people expect me to have a female gender) that makes us aware. This was certainly the case with me.

Quote from: tekla on January 06, 2009, 03:08:37 PM
We want photos Dennis.

Do I have to shave my legs first?

Dennis

Nah, you can be one of those 'guys in a dress' that everyone like to complain about that way.

Quote from: Zeo on January 06, 2009, 04:29:03 PM

There was a time when I thought I was a man in a woman's body, and that if I could just have a male body I'd be free to be me without anyone imposing expectations on me that I couldn't meet. However, I decided that I'm not really male either, and the means to make myself male would be way more complicated than I desire. I tolerate my female parts, and so I don't see a need to change them. They just don't represent who I am. If it were possible to have a genderless body, I'd choose that.

a lot of people here made that journey and feel those things.

Quote from: Pica Pica on January 06, 2009, 04:37:05 PM

Quote from: Zeo on January 06, 2009, 04:29:03 PM

There was a time when I thought I was a man in a woman's body, and that if I could just have a male body I'd be free to be me without anyone imposing expectations on me that I couldn't meet. However, I decided that I'm not really male either, and the means to make myself male would be way more complicated than I desire. I tolerate my female parts, and so I don't see a need to change them. They just don't represent who I am. If it were possible to have a genderless body, I'd choose that.

a lot of people here made that journey and feel those things.

Ditto.

I'm male-bodied, but I don't feel completely at home in it. Yet, I think that undergoing SRS and taking on a female body would be just as limiting.

Quote from: Nicky on January 06, 2009, 04:27:12 PM

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on January 06, 2009, 04:22:29 PM
My guess is that as I came to the understanding of my androgyne-ness somewhat late, I lean towards the femminine because I've already experienced the male thing.

Could be. Maybe I am the same but I do feel quite a strong abhorance of my perceived maleness.

Interesting photo Nero! Just thought you could sneak that in didn't you.

haha yeah. i was talking about having femme traits and playing with makeup has always been one of them. guess i'm finally truly comfortable here.