It's great that everyone know who they are and what gender they are. So, where do we draw the line what a men and women can and can not do? What sport is for men only and which is for women only? To me sometime we just got to stop saying this is for men or women only.. can we just try find something that both gender can play or work in without being rejecting the other gender???
How about work? Can we just focus on work instead of the person gender? if they can do the job let it be. Why make a big deal out of everything?? Who to say that women rule is only to take care of house work? Who say men rule is the only one who for the family??
I understand the strong should protect the weak. That part I understand. Everything else is hard to say. Knowing that every men and women are different. Some women can be great leader. Some men can't lead anyone... etc... it just example don't take offend.

Why not?

Because beyond everything else we are simply human.

I think a lot of TS's try to be "overly feminine" simply because of our strong desires to be considered, accepted, and viewed as female (or male for our FtM's)

Some of us (much like the "normal" people LOL) follow the programming of society that sez: a woman does this, and this, and that and a lady should never do this that and the other thing....
I think thats why when we look at the type of women (for MtF) we want to be or admire there always so damn pretty or perfect or have the typical perfect bodies, nice breasts, sterotypical feminine shapes,  and facial features (like so many of our avatars!) think about it when was the last time you saw a anybody pick an avatar (not actual photo) of a fat woman? or  awoman someone would say is less then perfect?
its like the catch 22 trap...we all complain about how normal society has there close minded narrow views of everything more particularly "US" but many of "US" (I included on that one) Fall right into the main stream when it comes to my perception of a woman and what she should look like

I to being A TS am guilty of the same actions (when I refer to my breast constantly for example) NO, its not a seal of womanhood nor do they make me a woman...But they do feed my confidence and boost my ego and help in projecting and being who I am.... a woman! 
Because at the very core of my essence I know I am insecure in myself...and I think most if not all TS's are!
I know that know matter what I do I will never be capable of do everything a "female" can.
for (at present) no MtF can bear a child. no MtF can have a "monthly cycle" etc.
These are the inadaqueces we has TS's have to face and accept..and for most of us if not all of us there gioing to leave us with insecurities
which by human nature we tend to compensate by drawing that "Gender line" and closely sticking to one side of it as if our lives depended on it or following it to the tee.

Or maybe a sista had way to much caffeine today!

Chynna

Chynna:  I think that you sound like a very normal woman, in fact!

Quote(when I refer to my breast constantly for example) NO, its not a seal of womanhood nor do they make me a woman...But they do feed my confidence and boost my ego and help in projecting and being who I am.... a woman! 

I am the same way about my bosoms.  If they don't look up to par (in my perception) in a certain style of blouse, I simply do not own any!  Maybe it is vanity...but I don't feel good unless I think that I look good.  I don't think this is unique to being TS, I think it is very much part of being a woman (I can't speak for the men, because I don't know) I can understand why appearance plays such a big part of a TS's confidence with all the pressure to pass and everything, as well as the pressure some put upon themselves for needing to look like the picture of femininity that they have in their minds' eye.  But believe me, that picture you have in your minds eye is probably pretty close to what most GG's have in their minds' eye as far as how they would want to look. We just have less issues attached to it. And we hate to admit that we do this too.  Oddly enough, the woman I would want to look the most like looks an awful lot like Jocelyn...think it's a coincidence?    Probably not.

Anyway, back on the gender line thing:  It has been a long tradition of society to catagorize things into nice, neat little packages.  On the whole, I think most of us like to know what's what and have no surprises about it.  Dogs act like this. Cats act like that. Democrats do this, republicans do that. The North is like this, the South is like that. Men are from Mars, and women are from...well, you get the point.  Society is full of black and whites and it leaves very little room for the shades of gray. Which, unfortunately, is very non-condusive to having a better understanding of the world and our fellow human beings.  Not every is either yin or yang.  In fact, I believe that most things are colored in shades of gray. But maybe I'm just weird. (Like that would be news to me, or anyone that knows me!)

Chynna, as someone who knows, you don't want that monthly cycle, believe me! I do think we (TSs) try to overcompensate by complying with gender norms. I hate it, myself, and often find myself thinking, well, if I'm really a guy, I shouldn't have to modify my behavior; rather, I should already be acting like a guy, naturally. However, yeah, we all have insecurities. Every time I go out to the movies to see a chick flick, I feel like people are looking at me, judging me, and feel like even when I look as male as possible, people will still judge me as more feminine for certain habits like that.

What I realize, however, is that there is no normal for men or for women. There's no distinct line. Men and women both play basketball, volleyball, hockey; they do gymnastics and ice skating, swimming, diving... and while there are subtle distinctions between the way games are played by either sex, they're all the same games. Traditionally, women like to wear pink, right? My younger brother, who is 16, 6'4", and about the most masculine male I know, loves pink shirts. My male buddies in college habitually watched Dawson's Creek, and not for Katie Holmes. I know plenty of guys who like chick flicks, and plenty of chicks who love action and violent films, regardless of societal norms.

I figure, we can overcompensate as much as we want to, so there is a distinct dichotomy between us and those of the sex in which we were born, but it might just be a waste of energy. Self-confidence, I think, is more important than any amount of posturing.

Rafe

self confidence is always the best. As long we are happy and confidence who we are nothing should matter.

It's true that life is not always black and white but more in the between.

Sometime being a human is to improve ourself. After all we dont change the rule from the past right. I mean as our life and our future change, shouldn't we change our rules and our way of life as well? We should get along with everyone. We are all different and cause of that we are all special in our own ways.

born 2learn:
there is one person that can draw that line: you
When i am having problems and baffled by these sort of questions I volunteer to help someone else, soup kitchens are a great place to start.  It works like magic every time.
love, no matter what, sheila

Quote from: angelsgirl on July 12, 2006, 11:05:33 AM
Chynna:  I think that you sound like a very normal woman, in fact!

Thanks girl that was the sweetest compliment I think I ever heard....
And the next time a woman suggests you get a man to help you lift something.
just say "thats OK Chynna will help me!" LOL

Quote from: Rafe on July 12, 2006, 11:09:44 AM
Chynna, as someone who knows, you don't want that monthly cycle, believe me!

Trust ME I wasn't saying I did!!! in no way shape or form LMAO
Thats one thing a Biological woman can have all to herself  I may be crazy but im far from stiupid!

Chynna

Well in work I think there is still a boundary.

In sports yes there are professional basketball for women and men. But they work if separated right now. Should a woman ever play with men. Absolutely. If she could take being hit by a 300 pound linebacker violently and live.

For now, we have mostly separate sports. For most sports there is at least some semi professional or local versions women can play almost any sport.

My sport is kung fu (which I havent practiced since the hurricane). Kung fu definately doesnt have gender lines.

Quote from: wickham_kendra on July 13, 2006, 10:18:11 AM
Well in work I think there is still a boundary.

In sports yes there are professional basketball for women and men. But they work if separated right now. Should a woman ever play with men. Absolutely. If she could take being hit by a 300 pound linebacker violently and live.
My sport is Kung-Fu  (which I haven't practiced since the hurricane). Kung fu definitely doesn't have gender lines.

Kendra:
I agree at work and many other palces there are boundaries, because people agree to work and not settle other issues there, that is the balance of forces there.
WE all choose our battles, I can't correct every wrong I see, but WE together can.
Yes there are lines drawn at all workplaces, for all kinds of reasons, lines were made to discriminate and separate.  What I needed to determine was: Will I allow them to push me back and reject and argue my reality just because it dissatisfy them and makes them very very uncomfortable?   NO!
  The beauty of Kung-Fu is that you don't get upset at your opponents moves even if intends to break your bones because you train to use that as a leverage for your benefit.  when he/she realizes that the faster and more violently he attacks the less energy we have to use to dishabilitate him/her. But that only will happen when we choose to engage and commit to win.

love,  Sheila

I have had the knowledge of prescribed gender for awhile roles & have ignored &/or played with them.

It's not that I dont do/like 'femmi' things or play the stereotypical wife role with Tino but I do love it when I am among friends & family who appreciate me for my competitive edge playing sports and my ability to cry when someone else is hurting.

I am not sure how most of these rules/roles came about. It doesnt seem much has to do with bio anything. I am definitely a woman & I have an interest in cars, wood working blah blah blah. My list of "feminine" activities is about as long.

Between the gender dichotomy some of us get lost b/c if some had their way we wouldnt count at all. Its like we mess with their tidy little system of rights & wrongs. It seems like some trans folks are likely to strive for the societal ideal of their gender, perhaps b/c their sex is wrong & it is so uncomfortable that basking in the gender is such a relief.

Great topic, one of my favorite discussions.
~Amy

Quote from: Chynna on July 12, 2006, 10:11:39 AM
I think a lot of TS's try to be "overly feminine" simply because of our strong desires to be considered, accepted, and viewed as female (or male for our FtM's)

Some of us (much like the "normal" people LOL) follow the programming of society that sez: a woman does this, and this, and that and a lady should never do this that and the other thing....
I think thats why when we look at the type of women (for MtF) we want to be or admire there always so damn pretty or perfect or have the typical perfect bodies, nice breasts, sterotypical feminine shapes,  and facial features (like so many of our avatars!) think about it when was the last time you saw a anybody pick an avatar (not actual photo) of a fat woman? or  awoman someone would say is less then perfect?
its like the catch 22 trap...we all complain about how normal society has there close minded narrow views of everything more particularly "US" but many of "US" (I included on that one) Fall right into the main stream when it comes to my perception of a woman and what she should look like

I to being A TS am guilty of the same actions (when I refer to my breast constantly for example) NO, its not a seal of womanhood nor do they make me a woman...But they do feed my confidence and boost my ego and help in projecting and being who I am.... a woman! 
Because at the very core of my essence I know I am insecure in myself...and I think most if not all TS's are!
I know that know matter what I do I will never be capable of do everything a "female" can.
for (at present) no MtF can bear a child. no MtF can have a "monthly cycle" etc.
These are the inadaqueces we has TS's have to face and accept..and for most of us if not all of us there gioing to leave us with insecurities
which by human nature we tend to compensate by drawing that "Gender line" and closely sticking to one side of it as if our lives depended on it or following it to the tee.

Or maybe a sista had way to much caffeine today!

Chynna

Chynna,
I think a lot of TSs are insecure and do overcompensate and I find that very sad. But as others have said, the need to fit the perfect female archetype is certainly not unique to the MtF experience.
Most women feel the need to conform to our society's idea of feminine beauty. And if they don't measure up, they feel insecure. This is why women get implants, liposuction, etc. Now I've even heard where genetic women are having their labia remodeled, because they saw a porno and their p**** looked different from the pornstar's so... P****** vary widely. There is no "perfect" p****.
Ridiculous!

I read something a while back that suggested FtMs will have an easier transition if they spend time studying the mannerisms of bio-men.
Now usually I'm all for the voracious study of anything that interests me, but in this case I'll pass.
I don't want to pass as male if it means I can't display my own innate gestures, mode of speech, walk,etc.
Transition is all for nothing if I can't be me. And if I don't fit some perfect male archetype, (and I can tell you right now that I don't) that's just fine with me. I'm secure in my masculinity, thank you very much.

QuoteSelf-confidence, I think, is more important than any amount of posturing.

Amen to that!

As to my feelings on gender differences: Male. Female. Whatever.

Nero

Ok, people i think and im think im right on this that man do cry. Hey when i was a kid, I got hit so many time and got my hand and leg hit and bang into thing. I even got cut and broke my own feet. Not as painful as when my ex gf break up with me. Ok, we not suppose to say we cry but I did. I have no shame to cry.
Yeah Kungfu is good martial art. I did them, and I learn to change things around to fit me. Martial art is a great way for everyone to join in dont matter size, race or gender...

I think we live in the world that the future wife is not as same as before. Why should we think cause one help out the other mean we switch the role within the family.

For example: If women is the one who suppose to cook then why most cook are men.
Come on, We all adult. A men can still live while being single before he have a gf or have a wife right. I'm sure when a guy is single they need to cook or find way to eat, even find way to clean and do other things.

Ok, True that most men need a woman to be successful.

Ok, so back to the topic. I think maybe it ok to draw the line in professional sports. OTher then that we shouldn't need the line. At work.. well if you can do the job then go for it.

Quote from: born2learn on July 13, 2006, 09:48:05 PM
For example: If women is the one who suppose to cook then why most cook are men.

That's just most paid cooks are men.

Melissa

Well most women like it if a man cook a meal for them lol... But still some man can cook when they are not in a relationship right?

QuoteA man can still live while being single before he have a gf or have a wife right. I'm sure when a guy is single they need to cook or find a way to eat, even find way to clean and do other things.

You'd think. If I have a woman, she cooks. I have no use for a woman who can't cook.
If I'm single, as I am now, I eat pasta every night as that's the only thing I can cook.
Cleaning, dishes, laundry,etc. When I'm single, my mother comes once a week to my apartment to take care of these things.
Oh, and I don't discriminate between the genders on this regard. If a friend rooms with me, he's the domestic.

Nero

Wow can your mom make me something for me :p Well I cook some stuff myself. I learn to cook when my parent left me a lone for awhile.. let me tell you when you hungry you try to learn to cook really fast. :p
There been time when i burn most of my food. lol i learn to go for basic after that.. When all else fail there pizza and chinese take out :p

Maybe men have to be paid to cook, where as women feel cooking is freely done for nurishment and for the family , lol.

Amy thank you for your words:
funny you say this b/c it seems to apply in some areas of my life, the way you put it hits home for me:

Quote from: spike on July 13, 2006, 06:16:17 PM
   I have had the knowledge of prescribed gender for awhile roles & have ignored &/or played with them.

This also used to baffle me for most of my life, there were things that i was doing that i found out only years after what I "was doing wrong" which demoriilized me at times and felt like giving up:

Quote from: spike on July 13, 2006, 06:16:17 PM
  I am not sure how most of these rules/roles came about. ...
Between the gender dichotomy some of us get lost b/c if some had their way we wouldn't count at all. Its like we mess with their tidy little system of rights & wrongs.

this last part i do not understand or am not sure i do and do not want to assume I do, could you please explain to me what do you mean by:  is so uncomfortable that basking in the gender is such a relief  ( by the way you write beautifully ... is lie a poem ) :

Quote from: spike on July 13, 2006, 06:16:17 PM
It seems like some trans folks are likely to strive for the societal ideal of their gender, perhaps b/c their sex is wrong & it is so uncomfortable that basking in the gender is such a relief.
~Amy

love Sheila

Quote from: sheila18 on July 13, 2006, 02:45:41 PM
Kendra:
I agree at work and many other palces there are boundaries, because people agree to work and not settle other issues there, that is the balance of forces there.
WE all choose our battles, I can't correct every wrong I see, but WE together can.
Yes there are lines drawn at all workplaces, for all kinds of reasons, lines were made to discriminate and separate.  What I needed to determine was: Will I allow them to push me back and reject and argue my reality just because it dissatisfy them and makes them very very uncomfortable?   NO!
  The beauty of Kung-Fu is that you don't get upset at your opponents moves even if intends to break your bones because you train to use that as a leverage for your benefit. This re-draws the line of fear and what the opponent will do next time when he/she realizes that the faster and more violently he attacks the less energy we have to use to dishabilitate him/her. But that only will happen when we choose to engage and commit to win.
  The Buddha Shakyamuni refused women to enter the convent(Sangha) including his mother.  When they persisted en mass he consented. Danika ?? struggles to be fully accepted in the men's professional Golf league.
The only question left is am I prepared and ready to engage(for battle,  and engaging can be don non-violently like Gandhi).
Are we ready? YES  are we ready? YES ... SORRY wrong door, got lost for a moment
love,  Sheila

QuoteThe Strategy of the Hard and Soft                            Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming
When using the soft to subdue the hard, the soft must be skillful and adaptable. Using soft to control soft is harder than hard. Using hard against hard, skill and Li (muscular power, strength) both stagnant and sluggish. If you use hard to defeat soft, your power and skill will be dull and hard to apply. Hard and soft mutually assisting and cooperating is the best strategy.