I know a similar question to this was asked last year, but
it was not asked in this specific way.

The reason I'm interested, is that I have noticed a lot of
comments recently, about so many of you having had a
less than totally male body before starting HRT treatment.

In discussion with my therapist, I've come to realise that
I've not only had breasts, but a less than masculine waist,
hips, and butt all my life. Add to this smaller hands, thin
wrists, and a real problem getting any muscle development
in my arms. If I wasn't 6ft tall, and damn ugly, then I think
I may have sought help sooner.

Suspicion currently lies with my body either having low T,
or a degree of androgen insensitivity, but not to the point
of having a specific syndrome.

One of the questions that came up was whether having
a feminine body as a guy tends to lead to low self-esteem
and re-enforce GID feelings, and to be honest, I think for
me it has.

It just sounds like I share this with more of you than I
first thought, and I would be interested in your views....



Chrissty

I'm confused, hon. Are you saying having a feminine body led to low self-esteem and made you feel like a girl? 

Quote from: Nero on February 02, 2009, 05:16:41 AM
I'm confused, hon. Are you saying having a feminine body led to low self-esteem and made you feel like a girl? 

Hi Nero... it has always made it more difficult for me to present
the "guy" image that was expected of me. I have always had a
problem with being around swimming pools or beaches without
a shirt on, and I'm sure you know how that might feel.

If it weren't for the fact that my GID issues started before I
was aware of my body "problem", then some might suggest it
has caused my GID, which is why I need to deal with the
subject head-on.

..if that makes any sense ?

Chrissty

Yes, it does makes sense to deal with that possibility.
So, you think you'dve been less dysphoric, had less GID, if you'd had a more average male body?

Similar for me, i dont really want to share comments made on my body type over the years but needless to say i think like the vast majority of transitioners we posess female or male traits depending.

I wonder if this is just a generic view though and the masses share the same we just concentrate on them because we wish to transition.

I'm sure a lot of us have gotten that "are you gay?" question followed by the "..are you sure?" question.
I guess a more feminine body would suggest a lower level of T produced by the body naturally? But that leads to the question of how much does the brain effect hormone production and how much does what we think, see, feel (external input) etc effect our brain on a hormone producing level? If at all. How separate is the body to the mind?? :s

This is a thing NOT to discuss with your therapist. I have experience even I did not bring it to conversation. In case your therapist has a ''sissyphobia'' it may destroy all.
But my first gendertherapist was a real jerk. He discriminated every MTF that was not lesbian with children and $$$ and was not ''masculine enough''.

I'm not on HRT yet, but I definitely have had a feminine body in many ways.  Hips, legs, thin wrists, no upper body muscle... i do have big hands though, or maybe I should say long hands.  I haven't felt low self-esteem because of my body because I never wanted a manly body in the first place.  I wouldn't say body shape has led to GID for me, but they do contribute to each other is more how I see it.  If anything, GID thoughts make me feel better about my body the way it is than I think I would if I *did* want to be manly... so I dunno, it's complicated.

It was a lot better before HRT in some respects. Now after HRT I have a pot belly which looks more male than female. No real fat re-distribution at all after 10 years of HRT.

Quote from: SomeMTF on February 02, 2009, 05:58:17 AM
This is a thing NOT to discuss with your therapist. I have experience even I did not bring it to conservation. In case your therapist has a ''sissyphobia'' it may destroy all.
But my first gendertherapist was a real jerk. He discriminated every MTF that was not lesbian.

I decided after my first session that I had confidence in my therapist
and I wasn't going to hide anything. Also as I've stated before, I am
trying to deal with this, and hold off my drive to transition for the
sake of my family, so I'm not going all out to get on HRT from the start.

With mature shaped 38B breasts, even with a more male skeletal shape,
I have more noticable breasts than some transitioners (and many gg's)
after 2 years of HRT, so the option was to lie and say I was self
medicating, or be honest .

Quote from: Nero on February 02, 2009, 05:36:00 AM
Yes, it does makes sense to deal with that possibility.
So, you think you'dve been less dysphoric, had less GID, if you'd had a more average male body?

Like I said, I cannot rule out that possibility.

Sheltered I may be, but I only found out about gynecomastia as a
clinical condition by accident 2 years ago, after years of frustration
and not understanding why exercise was not having the desired
effect on my upper body shape. Surprisingly no doctor has ever
commented on them, which raises a whole different bunch of issues
that I won't start to discuss here.

What I couldn't bring myself to do at the moment is risk taking T to
find out, as I feel I am way too lost and angry inside as it is, and
that could drive me over the edge. I also cannot bring myself to even
think about surgery.

Quote from: Vesper on February 02, 2009, 06:31:07 AM
If anything, GID thoughts make me feel better about my body the way it is than I think I would if I *did* want to be manly... so I dunno, it's complicated.

Complicated....I totally agree...

Quote from: Chrissty on February 02, 2009, 06:56:22 AM

I decided after my first session that I had confidence in my therapist
and I wasn't going to hide anything. Also as I've stated before, I am
trying to deal with this, and hold off my drive to transition for the
sake of my family, so I'm not going all out to get on HRT from the start.

We are kind of lucky in a way though Chrissty, we have the same therapists ect and they do offer a very understanding and sympathetic view what with Dr Curtis viewpoint ect. I can see how others therapists could be less so ect.

Anyway a bit off subject sorry.

Its not that it was sub par per se... But it seemed a little growth stunted in certain ways and out of... Synch.

Like my sex drive wasn't even CLOSE to under my control. Other males did their thing, but mine was so much more unpredictable than theirs.


I think one thing I had a problem with was just handling testosterone in the first place. Like... I had less control of it than other males I think...


DX

Quote from: Kiera on February 02, 2009, 05:51:57 AM
In discussion with my therapist . . .

lol, let us know what you & your therapist decide 'cause I really can't afford to analyze it to death @ $100+/hour! 

[/quote]

Sorry Kiera..nearly missed your reply...

Well.... having been totally honest about everything, including my body
issues, my sexual issues, my feelings etc....at the end of only my
second therapy session....unprompted my therapist turned around and
said I was clearly neither CD or TV which left only one other
(OK rather obvious) option, and that we need to start to focus on how
to deal with it....

Chrissty

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Post Merge: February 02, 2009, 07:46:35 AM

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Quote from: Ms Delgado on February 02, 2009, 07:13:31 AM
We are kind of lucky in a way though Chrissty, we have the same therapists ect and they do offer a very understanding and sympathetic view what with Dr Curtis viewpoint ect. I can see how others therapists could be less so ect.

I agree, and the image of some of the NHS team at the Charing Cross clinic is particularly scary.

Quote from: Kara-Xen on February 02, 2009, 07:16:39 AM
I think one thing I had a problem with was just handling testosterone in the first place. Like... I had less control of it than other males I think...

I always had the drive but stuggled to understand the motivation, and the act proved even more difficult until I resorted to mind games.

Quote from: Ms Delgado on February 02, 2009, 07:13:31 AM
We are kind of lucky in a way though Chrissty, we have the same therapists ect and they do offer a very understanding and sympathetic view what with Dr Curtis viewpoint ect. I can see how others therapists could be less so ect.

Anyway a bit off subject sorry.

Yes, Dr Richard Curtis is F to M and has more understanding from the same viewpoint rather than a stuffy late middle aged men at a NHS GIC who knows nothing about the criteria of changing gender (spending only a year a the RCOC) and is not really there to help or care about anyone.

To answer your original post...

I was always small.  I have small hands, small feet, small waist and no overly masculine facial features.  The first measurement of my T came in around 325 or so.  HRT brought that to an immeasurable level.

But I have a very deep voice.  I can develop muscle easily (I'm mostly mesomorph).  I liked playing football and hitting my opponents hard even though they were bigger than me.  I am good with math, building things and have a tool collection that would make Tim the Tool Man jealous, and I have used them all.  My personality is more masculine than feminine and I am sexually attracted to women.

But I've been totally full time since last April and have never been happier, felt freeer and been more at peace with myself.

A close friend had T levels more than twice mine.  She has a hard time creating muscle, has a slight build and is more female in personality than many GGs I know.  She looks silly with a tool in her hands.  But she has big hands & feet and is almost 6 ft tall.

I could go on with all the contradictory examples I know but I think you get the picture, physical properties really have no bearing on brain gender.  Everyone out there tries to focus on what they can see to explain what makes someone transgender but the truth is it's what we can't see that is the deciding factor.  They will never find that factor because they are looking in the wrong place.

To me, therapy's only useful purpose is to help us deal with the ignorance, prejudice and injustices the world doles out to us because we are trans.  It will never find the 'magic bullet' that made us trans to help us become "normal".  That would be like trying to find why a monk enjoys peace and trying to make him like war.  Short of brainwashing, it just isn't going to happen.

Accept yourself and stop listening to the "experts" on why you are you.  You are you because that's how you were made.  The why is unimportant and will drive you nuts.

Julie

Chrissty you bring a new light to that old question, I never considered the fact that my small hands, wrist, feet (size 9 in woman's) no adams apple and being 5'8" and fair features are what made me want to be a woman only that it was easier to be a woman. In retrospect I suppose that if it's easier to be something then it must be the truth. When I was younger I tried to deny the obvious and my attempts to gain muscle to be more "manly" only resulted in my chest, shoulders and arms getting any real size so going topless was OK, now after a good 2 years of HRT that won't be happening again unless you consider a bikini top topless

This question should prove interesting as it develops

Quote from: Cyndigurl45 on February 02, 2009, 12:26:07 PMIn retrospect I suppose that if it's eaiser to be something then it must be the truth.

If that were true, I should have never transitioned.  Even though my hair was long, my brows plucked, my clothes from the women's department, I wore makeup, etc. people at work still were shocked when I came out.

I've been on HRT for at least two years and my T levels are immeasurable yet I can "wing out" my lats like a body builder and have lost far less strength than my friends.  And I'm 57.

For me transitioning has presented one of the toughest challenges and there's been more than one time that I wanted to give in because it was so much easier, because of my physical makeup, to be a man.

Body gender and brain gender are unrelated and brain gender will always win out.  Even if you don't transition, the desire to will always be there if your brain is in cloflict with your body.

Julie

Well, for what its worth and to add another data point to the discussion, when I was late teens/early 20s I was small for a guy. weighed about 140lbs, wore a 27/28 waist jeans size, and when I look back at old pictures it wouldn't have taken much at that time to transition. When I hit 28 I apparently got a 2nd shot of T and filled out the rest of the way (180lbs).

It would take a lot more makeup now 

Quote from: Julie Marie on February 02, 2009, 01:00:58 PM
Body gender and brain gender are unrelated and brain gender will always win out.  Even if you don't transition, the desire to will always be there if your brain is in cloflict with your body.

Julie

Actually I do agree with you Julie...

.... the brain gender is the key, but I also think it is not as black and white for all of us, as it is for you.

For some of us where our motivation has not grown as strong yet, then social and physical factors may also play a part, at least in the timing of final decision to seek help, if not the basic need.

This time last year I had been very worried about the difficulties caused in my male life by my body "issues", and that they would be blamed by doctors for my GID. Since coming here I also read of several girls being prescribed T to overcome their "problems".

I was just finding it reassuring that so many girls were hinting that they had similar physical traits pre-transition, and so I wanted to open a discussion on the subject. 

Chrissty

My body was always small. I stopped growing at 12...seriously!
but I don't consider that to be feminine, perhaps more a deficiency
in HGH or something. Did I even have any feminine characteristics
in body shape or other physically feminine features before HRT?
Well I think you know my answer...nope! zip!, zero!, zilch!
and if I did, well my tortured mind wasn't letting me see it.

Forgive me if I am misunderstanding this thread as I haven't slept much the
past few days but it seemed at one point to ask the question 'could one's
body charactaristics in a sense attribute to GID?  Well this is just my opinion
but I think it can. How a person see's oneself can have a serious impact on ones
mind in many ways. I would be foolish and closed minded to think that GID could
not be one of the impacts <- again just my opinion as if it pertained to me.

Crissty, what could be causing your GID is something I should not even comment
on. I have seen all the pics that you post and can understand why your body has
caused such questioning, I however hope it does not cause you any discontent
My jaw hit the floor when you first mentioned you were pre-HRT.

But you are 100% female in so many ways to me. and there has got to be more to it
than physical or social...I mean you got this aura around you girlfriend that just screams
"I am woman"  and the body, face, smile, compassion,....to compliment it perfectly.
I would go on but my post could get really long just know this girl... I will always look
up to you, and wherever your path leads you will always be 100% woman to me, I
hope you don't mind that. 


*Hugs* Nicole