Discussion of Harry Benjamin Syndrome, Women Born Transsexual, posts which advocate the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term will be deleted on sight by staff. Don't waste your time or theirs posting that tripe here. You can be transsexual that doesn't prevent you from being transgender as well.

Katia has been banned for 7 days for the HBS posting spree she went on. I am sick and tired of it.

Well this site its more of the "rainbow" type. So those kind of post could be upsetting perhaps.

Interesting choice.

or unifying, for those who feel they have little/nothing in common with the rest of the umbrella.

So we are not allowed to Identify as women? or say we do? We must identify as transwomen or transsexuals? (Clarifying)

Good going, Susan.  And if you will permit me to field some peanuts, the idea that anyone would have a problem with us saying we are women is ludicrous, to put it politley.  We can be women, TS, and TG.  To say so is inclusive.  The proposition that one cannot be a woman and TG is divisive, and I certainly hope that statements to that effect will not be tolerated.

Quote from: Rachael on March 10, 2009, 12:41:25 AM
So we are not allowed to Identify as women? or say we do? We must identify as transwomen or transsexuals? (Clarifying)

You say you're clarifying, but it more seems like fishing for an argument.  People can identify as whatever they want.  Discussion of the type Susan noted is prohibited.

...........

Why not just take what people say at face value? Lots of internet flame wars start by people making assumptions.

Frankly, I understand if this seems rather marginalizing to women who identify with the HBS/WBT taxonomy, and that's unfortunate, especially if the idea is unity and mutual support.

Rachael, you said you were looking for clarification, so I'll give it a shot (at the risk of putting words in Susan's mouth).

You don't have to identify as anything at all to join and post to this site. I don't particularly like the terminology as used here either, but you need something. (Okay, granted I like it more than you do.) People argue a lot about various terms, and "Transgender" as an umbrella term is always a hot topic -- but it's kind of the underlying assumption of the site, so this isn't the place to argue it.

The other issue is about exclusion in general. Some of the posts in question didn't just talk about the HBS/WBT taxonomy, but were rather condescending toward some of the other groups represented on this site -- and I think that's the main issue.

So, identify how you please, understand the local lingo, however flawed, and don't be hatin' on groups represented here.

I hope that's fairly coherent and accurate.

~Alyssa

Quote
The other issue is about exclusion in general. Some of the posts in question didn't just talk about the HBS/WBT taxonomy, but were rather condescending toward some of the other groups represented on this site -- and I think that's the main issue

Those posts were apparently removed as no evidence of them remains.  Removing posts and then holding membership to "Don't do that!" is kind of awkward, since not everyone was privy to the banned content.

As for the umbrella term being hotly contested, just not here, I find that to be sad. I'm one who sees value in dissent, as long as it doesn't get personal.  It's sad that a community that advertises itself to be open to opinions and healthy debate is too precariously balanced to examine it's own foundation. 

It gets personal here, Mister, and perhaps elsewhere as well. When you try and exclude people and draw lines in the sand, that's personal, and that's what Susan is talking about. Many of us identify as women or as men, and not as trans. That doesn't mean that we get to say "I made it, pull the ladder up." And that's what the HBS stuff does.

Dennis

I beg to differ, Dennis.  HBS doesn't say pull the ladder up, it says, "Phew!  That birth defect's over.  Now on with my life..."  which seems to be exactly how many people in this forum ID, just without adding the acronym.

I agree that with many, it says that. However, it's used as a springboard to exclude people when it's applied, and that's been a constant problem here. Well, at least in the last year or so since it's flared up.

Dennis

ok, so...    i can be as "my defect is gone, woo hoo!" as i wanna be, as long as i don't take harry's name in vain? please point out the line so i do not step on it.

Quote from: Mister on March 10, 2009, 01:45:51 AM
I beg to differ, Dennis.  HBS doesn't say pull the ladder up, it says, "Phew!  That birth defect's over.  Now on with my life..."  which seems to be exactly how many people in this forum ID, just without adding the acronym.

There are a number of people on this forum who see it like that ... and who don't make a big deal about words, and who offer plenty of support to others around here regardless of their politics.

There are more important things to debate, and I don't think debate is really the point of this site anyway. I always thought the point was support. I hope that the foundation of this community is something more meaningful than taxonomy. Say, something more like a shared history of struggle with how society expects us to live as gendered people.

Quote from: Mister on March 10, 2009, 01:58:23 AM
ok, so...    i can be as "my defect is gone, woo hoo!" as i wanna be, as long as i don't take harry's name in vain? please point out the line so i do not step on it.

Excluding people is the problem. My defect is gone and I'm better than you. Or my defect is gone, so I don't need to support you. Or worse, I get rights cause I look like the majority and you don't, too bad. That's what the problem is. I'm long past transition myself. I would never even think that I'm better than a guy who's pre-ho, no-ho, pre-op, no-op, or androgyne. If they don't have equal rights, we don't have an equal society. And my rights don't take precedence over anyone else's.

Dennis

Quote from: Dennis on March 10, 2009, 02:12:28 AM
Excluding people is the problem. My defect is gone and I'm better than you. Or my defect is gone, so I don't need to support you. Or worse, I get rights cause I look like the majority and you don't, too bad. That's what the problem is. I'm long past transition myself. I would never even think that I'm better than a guy who's pre-ho, no-ho, pre-op, no-op, or androgyne. If they don't have equal rights, we don't have an equal society. And my rights don't take precedence over anyone else's.

Dennis

Aurgh, that gets so tricky b/c you get into passing privilege, etc. Something as simple as "I have no restroom issues whatsoever." can be construed by someone who DOES have them as your flaunting that you pass.  i caught hell in an internet forum back when i started T b/c i made all the not-yet-there dudes upset.  It gets dicey as hell.

Nobody here has ever had a topic like that nuked or edited. Like I said, it's generalization. No-ho, pre-ho, no-op, pre-op, are somehow not as good as the rest, and those of us who have transitioned need to band together and exclude the others to get our rights. That's the problem. I expect politeness on the passing things, but not outright exclusion. And that includes the late-transitioner versus early-transitioner crap.

Dennis

The Umbrella here covers a lot of ground. that coverage comes  with a price, The respect of diversity. The common ground we stand on is support. Members come to this site because they find support and respect for all.  Driving a wedge  by advocating separation or exclusion is over the line.

Quote from: Susan on March 09, 2009, 09:29:24 PMPosts which advocate the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term

You can identify how you wish, you can even say you are such and such if you like. You can not say you are not transgender, if not then why are you here? You can not say that transsexuals are better off without GLBT or CD's, or anything that smacks of being exclusionary.

If I wanted to make a transsexual only support site I could have. I did not do so for a couple of reasons.

One is to be as inclusive as possible. Many times someone starts off identifying one way and as they learn more they change their identification. But either way as the TOS says everyone is welcome here, and that only myself or my staff can tell someone to leave.

I will not tolerate anyone trying to drive wedges between parts of our community.

Quote from: Susan on June 11, 2005, 01:24:27 AM
The wolves circle in close pulling off members of the herd a few at a time. The stronger members of the herd race on surviving for a time against the relentless onslaught of the pack while the weak begin to fall by the wayside and are snapped up. Eventually the strong become the weak as all the lesser members of the herd have been eaten up. Soon none are left. This is analogy of what happens when you take what the public sees as a whole and start trying to separate out portions of it.

Greetings and salutations to the users of my boards and the wolves who wish to divide them. The public looks at us and they see one thing men in dresses for the MTF's, TS's CD's, and TV's. For the FTM they only see a lesbian women. This of course assumes you do not pass fully and thus become for the most part invisible. The public doesn't see the spectrum that makes up the transgender community they have no inkling that there is a difference between a Drag Queen or King, a CD, a TS, MTF or FTM. Education could help this but it would take generations for any effects to be seen. We have enough problem with those who just see us all as gay.

Here on Susan's Place I have four goals. Simple ones really.

Providing Information and Education - Transgender individuals come on the net and one of the first things they do is find out they are not alone out there and that others have similar feelings to themselves. Then you have the friends and loved ones who had someone they care about who recently came out of the closet. They both want information about the transgendered

Providing Support - After providing information and education this is a very important function of this website. We all need reassurance from time to time. We have setbacks in our lives or we lose family and friends as a result of coming out or being found out. We need others who understand what we are going though.

Preventing Tragedy - We have all been depressed. Many of us have been suicidal. We cheer up those who are down about their lives and try to redirect those thought before they can turn to to depression or worse suicide. We help buoy each other and thus keep our heads above water and our minds in the fragile condition known as sanity.

Companionship - A side effect of the first three purposes of this site but still just as important is the simple fact that this is a place where we can talk about our lives and our experiences. We discuss anything from books to hormones from the serious to the whimsical. We grow by our contact with others who understand and respect us.

I don't limit my site to one segment of the transgender community. I refuse to allow at least here in this one place in the world that I control for people to be excluded or to be made to feel less than any other member of my site. You are all equal in my eyes and each of you should see the other members of this site in the same way. As equals.

Let us now put an end to the TS vs CD and similar discussions, fights, and arguments on this site once and for all.

Susan,

Simply

Thank you.

I always fail to see how those who suffer intolerance can be intolerant.

Cindy JAmes

Quote from: CindyJames on March 10, 2009, 04:02:43 AM
Susan,

Simply

Thank you.

I always fail to see how those who suffer intolerance can be intolerant.

Cindy JAmes

Me too, but sadly it happens often. The Israel/Palestine conflict is a prime example.