Quote from: A~ on March 12, 2009, 03:54:50 AMHowever I am very much against binary IDed transsexual men and women being seen as outside of the binary.  That is misgendering and NONE of us here should ever be supportive of that. 

Thank you. 

Quoteif we all stick together, are mindful of each others identities and needs and avoid treading on each others toes.  That means on the one side, binary IDed people recognising the existence of the non-binary IDed folk.  On the other side, non-binary IDed folk need to be careful not to give the impression that ALL trans people want to be a third gender, instead be very clear that trans women and trans men should be absolutely 100% regarded as their identified gender.

I endorse this 100%, speaking as a very binaried woman who appreciates your wise and thoughtful proposal. If we could all shake on that, so many conflicts and ill feelings could be put to rest, and our world would be a better place.

Quote from: Susan on March 12, 2009, 02:48:37 AM
.....preop and post op

Please tell me its a typo. Seems like grammer can seperate as well as words

Quote from: Susan on March 12, 2009, 02:48:37 AM
Once again if your aims are not associated with the transgender community then why are you here at a transgender support site? It's a simple question which no one has had a good answer for. I will give you one. ...

The reason I am here has always been the same, it has never changed over the years I've been a member here.  When I first started coming to this site I was scared, nervous and alone, and the support, fellowship and understanding given to me helped me through a teririble time of my life.  I chose to stay and help others who suffer(d) as I did and provide the same support to them.  That is why I am a member of this site.

Quote from: Lisbeth on March 11, 2009, 10:59:35 PM
...If you believe you have nothing in common with them, it could be because you have no understanding of who they are. If you bothered to gain some understanding of the group, you just might realize that you have a good deal in common with them. There is hardly any group of people you don't have something in common with, and it is only prejudice that keeps people from seeing each other.

"If I had bothered?" You certainly have some nerve to drop by like this and make unfair comments about me.  You do not know me, and you do not know what I have "Bothered" to do.  I will always stand On my participation and contributions to this site, including the Wiki, and I have a very good understanding of the members here and how and why they identify as they do.

It is becoming very obvious to me that I seem to have worn out my welcome and usefulness to this site and I will ask Susan to delete my account, and wish you all good luck in your future lives and that you all achieve your goals what ever they may be.

Steph

Quote from: Leslie on March 12, 2009, 12:21:45 AM
Before & after her transition is complete a transsexual woman may identify as transsexual or transgender but it's up to her (not to other people) to choose those terms for her. Though most of us want to be referred to as just WOMEN.

But saying "I am transgender" is, in effect, saying to society "I don't accept your insistence that there are only two genders, and I must belong to one or the other". It's a socio-political statement.
It doesn't apply to transsexual people; we aren't challenging gender, we aren't making any kind of statement; we're just trying to correct a congenital condition, and live our lives as best we can. It does us no favours to blur the distinction in the eyes of the general public. 

I have nothing against transgender people; I know, work with and support many of them.  But I have no more in common with them than I do with stamp-collectors or football players.

To me, saying "I am a transgendered person" means that I have had the experience of crossing from one gender to the other in the eyes of society.  It insists that people have the capability and demands the freedom to self define, whether that means moving from one end of the spectrum to another or being somewhere in between or outside that spectrum alltogether.  It does not necessarily mean that I don't belong to one of the two gender's recognized by society.  Not to me.  Not to most people I know.

Quote from: Leslie on March 12, 2009, 12:21:45 AM
Before & after her transition is complete a transsexual woman may identify as transsexual or transgender but it's up to her (not to other people) to choose those terms for her. Though most of us want to be referred to as just WOMEN.

But saying "I am transgender" is, in effect, saying to society "I don't accept your insistence that there are only two genders, and I must belong to one or the other". It's a socio-political statement.

It doesn't apply to transsexual people; we aren't challenging gender, we aren't making any kind of statement; we're just trying to correct a congenital condition, and live our lives as best we can. It does us no favours to blur the distinction in the eyes of the general public. 

I have nothing against transgender people; I know, work with and support many of them.  But I have no more in common with them than I do with stamp-collectors or football players.

Really don't understand your logic. If men and women born without gender issues ("GID") can accept we live in a non binary world why cannot "ex-TS" men and women accept the same. If someone has transitioned successfully why can't they be as generous as GG's etc?

All terminology can be offensive, TS/TG and some Gay people in Indonesia are called by the term "Waria" (Wa...ria from Wanita meaning woman and Pria meaning man). At the end of the day it's just a word.

Personally I couldn't give a monkey's what anyone calls me, I am who I am and that's enough for myself, friends and family.

Solidarity is the only way forward, anything else is in my eyes ridiculous to say the least.

We all knew the name of this site, if we don't like it we shouldn't be here.

No one is stopping anyone from getting their own umbrella...

Peace.

Steph

Dont go. I really enjoy your comments and the insights you give.

Dammit, Steph, please don't go.

Dammit, Susan, would you please lock this topic, or should I just delete the thread?

Dammit, everyone, quit posting to this topic. Nothing but hurt feelings. How is this any better than any of the HBS/WBT threads? Is this a support site, or the McLauglin Group? If it's the latter, then as John McLaughlin would say, YOU'RE ALL WRONG!

Stop. This is ridiculous.

The trouble with umbrella terms is that they do group people together who might not belong together or do not want to be together.  Yet they do allow people to frame a common argument, one that might well benefit all.

The trouble with such debates is that once the word is in common useage, and this one is, arguing about changing it, is a debate about who left the barn door open when all the cows are heading down the road - too little, too late and not doing anything constructive.

The term isn't the trouble Tekla. Taking offense to it is.

Quote from: cindybc on March 12, 2009, 12:06:12 PM
If anyone wishes to finish this topic without upsetting Susan's Transgender Forums policy, I have a yahoo groups for Trans folks that is not in use, If this is OK with Susan.

Cindy

I'm sorry to laugh, but "finish" the topic? Puh-leez. You're going to "finish" it when over the past four or five years it's only grown like topsy and caused endless bad feelings?

Well, good luck, Cindy. But I'd think you'd have a better chance of bailing dry Puget Sound with a teaspoon.

But, there was an interesting bit of news Zythyra brought in for the News today here.

I think it just might show that the umbrella maybe has some real value when people value it for what it is: a way to drive rights and dignity for all, not simply a few who may be like me. That is not a bad thing at all when you consider the absolute numbers (presumed) of all gender-variant/intersex humans living in USA or Canada or even the world.

Some unity and coalition is going to be necessary to get anything positive accomplished. Much of what was done in the mid 1970s had nothing at all to do with transsexing women. Much of it was due to professionals like Benjamin himself and other psych and medical professionals educating politicians and media folk.

But, history can be interpreted to advantage by almost anyone, in any grouping.

Nichole

QuoteBut here Transgender is and always will be a umbrella term. It's not one you can pick or not, your presence here picks it for you.

The presence of SOs and allies on this site does not make them 'transgender.'  People with TS histories on this site- or anywhere- who now serve as support or mentors of the up and coming members of the TG community can also be allies with identifying as TG.

This discussion has p*ssed me off so bad I'm going androgyne in protest

Hi Nichol, Tanks, do I get one of those plastic beach pails to go with the spoon? Hon I don't care less if anyone wins or looses this argument it appears to be a no win situation when ever it comes up. I only just came back here to Susan's to see if I could be of assitence to anyone in transition.

I don't believe I have anyone here who dislikes me, I talk to anyone, whatever their orientation, but it is transsexuality and GID that I know most about because I have had the personal experience. I don't know anything about that other stuff, it's all news to me. I'm from the old school you know. An old Hippie lady with a trans background. I do what I can to keep it simple lest I may trip over my own feet while trying to walk and chew gum at the same time.

Well I guess I learn some new stuff everytime a debate like this comes up. 

Cindy 

Quote from: Mister on March 12, 2009, 03:54:25 PM
The presence of SOs and allies on this site does not make them 'transgender.'  People with TS histories on this site- or anywhere- who now serve as support or mentors of the up and coming members of the TG community can also be allies with identifying as TG.

No it doesn't make them transgender. But they are the exception rather than the rule. If you are Androgyne, CD, Drag kings, Drag queens, IS, TS, or TV,  then you are Transgender when you are at this site.

"i never read anywhere in the TOS..."

Are you for real?

Quote from: imaz on March 12, 2009, 07:05:06 PM
"i never read anywhere in the TOS..."

Are you for real?

Go read them.  find me something that says everyone is trans.

I think that there are a lot of people who limit their lives to a cyber actuality, meaning that out there, in the REAL world, they are not entirely what they scream from the rooftops in internet forums such as these.  I am talking about 24/7, 365 days a year, every second of every morning and every night.  I believe that there are a lot people who have not transitioned every aspect of their lives yet (including their minds) and somehow still live and think in this "in-between" state.  I think that there are a lot of people who are just happy "being accepted or tolerated" but not actually BEING the gender they say they are or LIVING a female life 101% of the time.

So, where am I going with all this?  Simply put, that we are all different, way different and although we may have shared a series of events as "having born with the wrong body" for instance, our unique and personal experiences have shaped us to be what we are today & how we think at this very instant.  Nothing people say is going to change that, for it is rooted deep within ourselves.  Sounds elitist? I can assure you that it isn't elitism.  Quite obviously a person cited in my little example (above) is going to have a totally different mindset from someone who isn't included in that example.  That, guys, isn't elitism, it is called reality.  Welcome to the real world.!   

As for myself, as I have said a zillion times on this board, I am a woman with a transsexual history.  I am also a SO (significant other) since my boyfriend has a transsexual past as well and is also a moderator of this site, but you see, what *I* am, what *I* consider myself to be or what *I* call myself shouldnt really matter or make a difference to *YOU* personally unless it threatens the foundation of what you really believe yourself to be.

tink

Quote from: Mister on March 12, 2009, 07:08:19 PM
Go read them.  find me something that everyone is trans.

I can't be bothered and frankly am surprised you are.

If you find it so troublesome why put yourself through all this?

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Post Merge: March 12, 2009, 06:13:53 PM

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Quote from: Tink on March 12, 2009, 07:11:28 PM
I think that there are a lot of people who limit their lives to a cyber actuality, meaning that out there, in the REAL world, they are not entirely what they scream from the rooftops in internet forums such as these.  I am talking about 24/7, 365 days a year, every second of every morning and every night.  I believe that there are a lot people who have not transitioned every aspect of their lives yet (including their minds) and somehow still live and think in this "in-between" state.  I think that there are a lot of people who are just happy with "being accepted or tolerated" but not actually BEING the gender they say they are or LIVING a female life 101% of the time.

So, where am I going with all this?  Simply put, that we are all different, way different and although we may have shared a series of events as "having born with the wrong body" for instance, our unique and personal experiences have shaped us to be what we are today & how we think at this very instant.  Nothing people say is going to change that, for it is rooted deep within ourselves.  Sounds elitist? I can assure you that it isn't elitism.  Quite obviously a person cited in my little example (above) is going to have a totally different mindset from someone who isn't included in that example.  That, guys, isn't elitism, it is called reality.  Welcome to the real world.!   

As for myself, as I have said a zillion times on this board, I am a woman with a transsexual history.  I am also a SO (significant other) since my boyfriend has a transsexual past as well and is also a moderator of this site, but you see, what *I* am, what *I* consider myself to be or what *I* call myself shouldnt really matter or make a difference to *YOU* personally unless it threatens the foundation of what you really believe yourself to be.

tink

Thank you (((Tink))), agree totally

Quote from: Mister on March 12, 2009, 07:18:55 PM
reread, pls.

What?

The TOS? I told you I can't be bothered!

You mean this?...

This website is here to provide support and assistance to the Transgender community and those who love us. We strive to provide important services to the entire transgender spectrum including TS's, CD's, TV's, SO's and yes even admirers. Our forums are used to discuss a wide variety of topics on a ever changing basis. Information to be found in our library there ranges from coming out of the closet to sex change surgery. Our chat is a secure medium to contact other transgendered people and to discuss your daily lives.

Mister you're taking this all out of context.

They're talking about the umbrella term Transgender. It has nothing to do with someone's presence on the board.

What Susan was saying that if you identify as Transsexual, crossdresser, etc., you are also considered Transgendered.