I am putting this in spirituality, even though I am not a religious sort of person, this is a view of an overall point of view of what should govern life and the world  we know.

Fundamental - Survive
I cant think of a more fundamental basic belief in life as the need, wish, desire, and urge to survive. It seems to dwell above social needs, relationship needs, even environmental needs.

Reason
Even if one becomes near death injured, wrongly imprisoned, lost at sea, split to shreads from a nasty relationship break up, get fired or layed off from work, loose all belongings to natural disaster or theft, one should try all they could simply to do what they can to survive. No matter how bad things look, there is almost always a chance for a brighter future. And one should always keep fighting till death (not caused by self).

What can you do to fight for survival?
Its during these times when our vast sometimes unused intelligence, ability to use amazing never tried resources, inhibitions and fears drop to try stuff you would never dare, and overall courage and determination are dropped to the most primal sense.

Can fighting for survival increase your chances to pull through?
Most definately there will be at least one, or many things that will actually pull you through. You may have to think, try different things, use resources ultra wisely and to maximum usage, and be fearless.

Why am I writing this post?
I do not have a religion in the organization sense. I do however believe in many psychologies as the rules to govern life and behavior, and the reasoning to explain social interactions. It doesnt explain where we came for, or where we are going after death, but can give reason to live to anyone.

Survival should be primary. According to Maslow this is the primary need of everyone. Before even safety, love, social needs.

Kendra,

I couldn't agree more!

And its proper that you place this post here.  What you are talking about is the strength of the human spirit!

Chaunte

I would disagree.

I would say that our most basic desire / drive is: Avoidance of Pain.

If the desire for survival was truely the ultimate drive, suicide would not make sense, it wouldn't exist.  The fundamental reason for any suicide is avoidance of pain of some sort (physical, embarassement, shame, mental, social, psychological, etc...).

If it were not for my very sincere belief that *something* negative would happen, be it hell or karmic consequences, or something unknown, I would be gone in less than an instant. I believe that whatever negative would happen would be worse than just trudging through this life, or it wouldn't be that much of a consequence.

So, in a sense, it's my belief that I would cause myself more pain by trying to avoid pain through suicide that prevents me from actually doing it.  However, if I did not have that belief, I wouldn't even take the time to finish this post before leaving.

Jessica, if we were trying to avoid pain as our primary driver in life, then why did we not do ourselves in years ago?  Why did we torment ourselves and try living as males?  I think it is because we wanted to survive.  Most transsexuals transition (which is painful in itself) rather than take the easy way out with suicide.

I do believe avoidance of pain is a driving factor, but just not the primary one and definitely not as primal as survival.  I think where you may be mistaken is that we are not able to survive in our born sex because the pain is too great.  We transition to ease the pain in order to survive, however, we must go through even more intense pain to ease it, and thus we go towards it rather than avoid it.

Melissa

Quote from: Jessica on July 25, 2006, 09:53:34 AM
I would say that our most basic desire / drive is: Avoidance of Pain.

I think my most basic desire is HOPE... and the perpetual struggle to keep it alive, to not let the cold touch of banality freeze my soul.

QuoteJessica, if we were trying to avoid pain as our primary driver in life, then why did we not do ourselves in years ago?  Why did we torment ourselves and try living as males?  I think it is because we wanted to survive.  Most transsexuals transition (which is painful in itself) rather than take the easy way out with suicide.

I didn't say survival wasn't a priority.

I just don't think it's the #1 priority.

Honestly, it's probably 2 or 3, I don't know.

I just know that if it was the number 1 priority there would be no suicide as it would never be justifiable in anyone's mind, ever.

The fact is, it's the 8th leading cause of death, and in every case, the reason for it is to avoid pain. Therefore, it's hard to make the claim that survive is the number 1 priority across the board.

Quote from: Jessica on July 25, 2006, 10:09:01 AM
I didn't say survival wasn't a priority.

I just don't think it's the #1 priority.

But I did.

Melissa

Ummmmmm....  I have to agree with everyone else.....

Survival is key, and its #1......... if it wasnt people in bad situations would just give up and die.... it would be far LESS painfull that way.......

Sides, pain can purify ones heart and soul so long as you dont let it drag you down 

QuoteAccording to Maslow this is the primary need of everyone. Before even safety, love, social needs.

If you Make a Claim C, about a set X then, to prove C, you must show that C holds for every member of set X.  To disprove C, you simply need to find one case in X under which C does not hold.

Claim (C): Survival is the #1 primary need.
Set (X): Everyone

If there is a member of set X under which claim C does not hold, claim C is invalid.

Quote
31,655 individuals completed suicide in 2002...that's 86.7 people each day...one person approximately every 17.2 minutes.

Of those 31,655 individuals, approximately 4,010 were youth between 15 and 24 years old

Suicide is the 11th leading cause of death in the United States; however, it is the 3rd leading cause of death for youth (ages 15-24), exceeded only by accidents and homicides.

Homicide is the 14th leading cause of death. More Americans kill themselves than are killed by others.

Annually, 790,000 Americans have attempted to kill themselves.

Reference: http://www.infoline.org/Crisis/stats.asp

These are members of set X that show that Survival is not the primary need for everyone.

My point? Survival is not the number 1 need for everyone, it's mathematically demonstrable that this is not the case.

I don't know what is, my hypothesis was stated earlier, but it can't be survival.

*added*
I'm going to add why I think it is avoidance of pain as a primary driver.

Melissa asked why we didn't do ourselves in years ago.

It comes down to beliefs.

Survival is absolutely deterministic. Beliefs almost can't be factored in. Survival is something you do, or you do not do. Avoidance of Pain is definately belief based and depends on the individual and how that individual weights 'pain'.

The path most of us here take.
Continued living is continued psychological pain.  Much more so than going through a transition.  The difficulty in the decision is weighing in these three options. The pain caused by transitioning vs. the pain caused by not doing anything about it vs. suicide.

We internally weight these based on our beliefs.
Why do we transition? To ease the pain of our gender dysphoria.
Why do some suicide? To ease the pain (within their belief structure) of living.

Some people weight death as the ultimate pain and therefore do not choose that route.
Those people have then closed that particular door (because of their beliefs) and now weight the pain of living with their gender dysphoria against the pain of transitioning. Those that begin transition then move through transition until the pain of gender dysphoria is alleviated and then they stop.  It's why we have such a spectrum within our condition. Some cross dress, some take HRT and then their pain abates and they are happily non-ops, some go all the way. The reason it is such a drive is there is a 'pain threshhold' and once we are passed that threshhold we HAVE to do something about it. Once suicide is viewed as not being an option, there really is little left to 'choose' you have to go forward to alleviate the pain.

I think just about every condition can be broken down in a similiar manner. I just used this example because it is something that all of us can certainly relate to.

The reason for just about every suicide can be seen as avoidance of pain, in some form or another.
To alleviate the pain of a failed relationship.
To alleviate the pain of a lifelong condition.
To alleviate the pain of old age.
To alleviate the pain of infirmity.
To alleviate the pain of boredom.
To alleviate the pain of fearing what the future may bring.
etc...

It all depends on how that particular person 'weights' pain.  It's why some decisions seem so irrational.  To someone who is not gender dysphoric many of our decisions seem insane, simply because they don't understand the pain of it.  The only thing they can do is attempt to put themselves in that situation and weight what they think would be the pain and what their reaction would be.

Therefore, alleviation of pain is something that a statistically significant number of people actually choose to end their survival over. Almost all current psychological thinking for someone who is suicidal focuses on working through that which is causing the person pain, and keeping that person safe until it can be worked through.

It is in this light that I believe that avoidance of pain (psychological, social, physical, or emotional) is more fundamental than survival.

Jessica

Very well presented Jessica.
Also, I am tending to agree.

Well, I'm tending to think that for some people survival is the primary motivator and for others it is avoidance of pain.  However, I also believe that more people are of the former camp, since most people don't commit suicide.

Melissa

We see it differently I guess Melissa.

I see those people in the former camp as assigning a very high 'pain' value on suicide (either because their belief that suicide has extremely negative consequences in the next life or because dying is probably very painful or because they can empathize the pain that they would cause others).

In fact, I would agree that a VAST majority put such a high value on it that it is 'unthinkable' next to other options and all other options should be explored first.

You see it as assigning a high priority to survival, I see it differently.

We'll agree to disagree?

*hugs*
Jessica

I associate suicide as a way out of the pain, because I have been suicidal several times before.  However, my need to survive is what stopped me.  Have you ever been suicidal?  Any pain felt is very short compared to living in torture.

We can agree to disagree, but I am mostly speaking from personal experience.

Melissa

QuoteHave you ever been suicidal?  Any pain felt is very short compared to living in torture.

Do you read my posts, or just the first few lines and assume you know the rest?

The only things, and I do mean the only things that keep me here are:
1. My belief in extremely severe Karmic consequences.
2. Empathizing with how my Dad, Wife, Brother, and those around me would feel which would create even greater Karmic consequences.

Have I ever been suicidal? Just once. From about 15 or so, up until, well, I guess yesterday.

I think about it as much as I think about myself, which is to say, all the time.

Quotebut I am mostly speaking from personal experience.

If you are avoiding pain, why do you even think about suicide?  Why would suicide even seem like an option to you if you consider it such extreme pain?  I see suicide as an escape from the pain and that is why we consider it a legitimate option, but our need to survive keeps us from doing it.

Melissa

Quote...
Any pain felt is very short compared to living in torture.
...

which is pretty much what Jessica said.
Higher priority on avoiding pain after life than pain in life.

At least, that is how I read it

That helps clear things up Kimberly.  We're talking about the same thing, but calling it different names.  I agree that we should agree to disagree.

Melissa

QuoteIf you are avoiding pain, why do you even think about suicide?  Why would suicide even seem like an option to you if you consider it such extreme pain?  I see suicide as an escape from the pain and that is why we consider it a legitimate option, but our need to survive keeps us from doing it.

We view things very differently.

Maybe your the member of set X that blows my theory right out of the water. *laugh*

The only way I can explain it is like this.

I absolutely hate how I relate to the world, and how the world relates to me.
I hate pretending and setting up a front to the world so that the world does relate to me in a way I hate, I hate feeling like I am lying, like I am hiding.
I feel like I am living in a prison and I have no hope of that ever changing.
That causes a LOT of pain

Transitioning would cause an incredible amount of pain.  It would create a tremendous amount of pain in that I would lose my wife, my job, I would never pass, and therefore I would never be related to as a woman.
Now, throw in my belief in Karma, and it gets worse. It might be simplistic, but, what I do will be done back to me. Lets say my next life is incredible, all I could ever want. Then my husband who I love and am married to is in this situation, he leaves me and transitions... I will have to experience that.  Well, there goes my ideal life.
That all creates a tremendous amount of pain.

So, that leaves me with Suicide.
I do not believe suicide is an 'escape' necessarily.  My belief in Karma makes this necessarily so. You have to go back through and learn the lessons that you didn't learn / avoided in this life, AND you have to experience the pain you put others through. Meaning, your in this situation, all over again + it sucks even more. So, by suicide, in my belief, you've jumped into the fire from the frying pan.

The same beliefs that make suicide unacceptable to me also make transitioning unacceptable.  The reason I have come to this conclusion is by 'weighing' the 'pain' involved in each one. All I can do is make it from day-to-day.  I figure, each day I make it through, is one step closer to MY day to get this over with.  I just need to make it through each day okay and not worry about 'tomorrow.'

I mean, it's like, come on, I'm severely depressed, I'm diabetic (found that out last year), I hate being here, my day's gotta come soon, whatever has me tied here can't keep me here much longer, right?

Anyway, for me, it's about avoiding pain, it is definately not about surviving.

Just as another data point, I have not suicided because I know it would hurt Mum and Dad severely.

Yea, I would like to see this life in the good times but, meh. Never mind.

...

But that's the thing. Avoiding pain for Mum and Dad. It's not because of my own sense of survival. That IS present mind, but the current and perceived future pain can drown that out.

Heh, yea I better find someone to hold me before someone close to me dies again.

Quote from: Jessica on July 26, 2006, 12:25:54 PM
We'll agree to disagree?

Quote from: Melissa on July 26, 2006, 01:27:27 PM
I agree that we should agree to disagree.

Melissa