I think happyness can be choosen, but not always. My wife suffers from depression. I've seen her so depressed that she just curled in a ball and totally stopped funcitoning as a person. The rest of the world ceased to exist for her. I doubt she could choose happyness under those conditions.

I think people are predisposed to being unhappy to a certain amount. For some it is easy to stay happy. For others it is a nightmare battle. I think it is too simplistic and offensive to those that face such a huge struggle for happyness to say they can choose to be happy. I think it would be more accurate to say that through your own thoughts and actions and possibly the help of others you can be happy.

Quote from: Nicky on March 29, 2009, 02:55:12 PM
I think happyness can be choosen, but not always. My wife suffers from depression. I've seen her so depressed that she just curled in a ball and totally stopped funcitoning as a person. The rest of the world ceased to exist for her. I doubt she could choose happyness under those conditions.

I think people are predisposed to being unhappy to a certain amount. For some it is easy to stay happy. For others it is a nightmare battle. I think it is too simplistic and offensive to those that face such a huge struggle for happyness to say they can choose to be happy. I think it would be more accurate to say that through your own thoughts and actions and possibly the help of others you can be happy.

It's a bit extreme to say that you can choose to be happy at any moment, although I like that idea and it seems true to some extent. However, you can choose to go in the direction that leads to being happy,.. if that makes sense. I guess a simpler way that people would understand is to say that you can be positive rather than negative. I've went through a depression too, and even though I felt completely hopeless at some points, I knew that those were the times that I gave in negatively and and let myself fall deeper. I may not have been able to be happy at those moments, but I certainly could have made it less bad and head towards a path leading towards peace of mind and happiness. It's not as simple as just thinking positive however, it's alot more abstract,.. it's a bit too hard to explain in good way that's understandable I think.. but I do think it's possible to come out of a depression from one's own free will(tho not simply, and not quickly), in any situation, and that maintaining happiness constantly is also possible... in theory.

Smiling in a way is a good tool, that does a good job at initiating a chain of positiveness... however it won't do much in a depression.. it kinda feels like you're just covering up the mess with something that looks good.

I also think that there are some situations where it is unhealthy to be happy.  If you're depressed right after your entire family who you love dearly dies, that is perfectly fine; if not, that's kind of ->-bleeped-<-ed.  This is an extreme situation that I doubt happens, but people are often happy(ish) in more minorly crappy situations.

While I think most depression is self imposed, I do think there are cases where it's more than just being negative.  I would just say that those cases are the exception to the rule.

Generally, most people who are 'depressed' do it to themselves and either don't know how to fix it or they don't want to put in the effort...they want someone to save them.  Unfortunately, there are very few (if any) knights on white horses to save us from our situations and we'd all be a lot happier if we'd just do it for ourselves. 

I think care needs to be taken when talking about 'depression'. A lot of people say they feel depressed but they are not clinically depressed. Clinical depression can sometimes render you incapable of possitive thought.

You're probably right, they are the exception, but then something like 1 in 4 people will suffer from a mental illness at some point in their lives. I would suggest that in most cases this will be because of depression (just a guess). That says to me that a big chunk of the people that are stuck can't actually help themselves.

Personally I think it is ok to be unhappy if your situation is hard, or you hate your job or your relationship is bad. That tells you something is wrong. Kind of along the same lines as Mr Fox said, there are some situations where it would be a bit counter productive to be happy. If you are happy and your job stinks, would you do something about it?

On a parallel train of thought, I don't think you need to be happy to have a good life (though if you have happyness as well I think you have the full package). A life well lived includes adversity, sadness, pain, challenge, and Rebis  . I think humans don't do well without challenge, we go mouldy and our brains turn to custard.

In a store today I saw a plate with four statements along the lines of 'Let no sadness enter this house.' and 'Let no misfortune enter this house.'. That's just wrong; sadness and misfortune are parts of life. I can choose to be happy; I don't always get what I choose. Alternatively, I can choose to be somber and serious and break out giggling.

I am more likely to be happy if I choose to be so. As the joke goes, God cannot arrange for us to win the lottery unless we buy a ticket.

Similarly with life. None of us live forever. Yet I have seen people live to see some special day--a birthday, a child's wedding--or die soon after a spouse or soon after losing their independence. Choosing to live, like choosing to be happy, makes a difference. We can lengthen our days and we can make each day count--we can live more fully.

We can choose to be happy. I have heard we are more likely to be happy if we work to make others happy.

Be well,
S

Clinical depression is a different deal, and I don't think it is what people are talking about here.  I sure hope not.  Telling someone with clinical depression to 'just be happy' is like telling a quadriplegic to get up and jog around the block.

On the other hand, there are people who seem to thrive on being bummed out - and bumming other people out and then wonder why no one wants to hang out with them or be romantic with them.  But, as smart people know, such things are contagious and if you want to be lucky, hang out with lucky people, and if you start to hang out with unlucky people, your luck will match theirs in short order. 

If you are happy and your job stinks, would you do something about it?
Guess that would depend, wouldn't it?  There are no shortage of people - and its growing every day - who would love to have any job, even one that sucks, because a job you hate is better than no job at all these days.  Or you might be doing some suck job in hopes of getting a better one - getting your foot in the door as it were. I'm one of the highest paid hourly persons at this club I work it.  Its more than world famous, its a legend.  And you just don't walk in off the street and get the highest paid job, you work your way up to it.  Might as well smile on the way.

And there are people who can smile through the pain, the hardness, and the challenges of life, in fact some people thrive on them.  Yeah bad stuff happens, but how you deal with it makes all the difference in the end.

I think you can be happy and unhappy at the same time, like being bitter sweet. They are not opposites of feeling and they use different parts of the brain. But it is kind of like we have emotional bandwidth, lots of one tends to hog your connection.

I would have preferred a more subtle message for making me realize that I'm not suited for the kind of job I had instead of breaking down into a depression. I think a big lack of interest already makes you incapable of doing your job correctly and in response gets you fired :S

I do not accept the idea that negative is needed for there to be positive. If you can experience happiness, then you can experience it.
Negativity is not needed in any situation, it is a destructive property of the human mind;
If your family dies, cry, but feeling sad will not help with any of that. Actually I think an appropriate response would be to live an even grander life to live your family's share. Some people are incapacitated most of their life because of some trauma. Fear is the worse, and needs to be ridded of. You do not need fear or stress to function; your adrenaline is enough to stimulate you out of tough situations.. all fear does is make you panic, and panic almost always leads towards bad choices. There is no reason to choose negativity. You may think you aren't choosing it, but feeling bad in any way is an active job, you make yourself feel bad. We just don't always notice that we are actively making ourselves feeling bad, as some of it seems to work in the background. But just like we don't notice at every moment that we're actively doing the action of breathing, it's possible to focus on it and control it. Feelings are just a bit more abstract. I don't think clinical depression is an exception; it is just an extreme case, and requires ..greater, or longer, interception .
Leaving happiness aside, it should be obvious that feeling bad is illogical and destructive and not worth experiencing. You can become stronger and improve without it, I know I have, and in fact, only positive aspects have made me better. The idea that "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" is a misinterpretation. What gave me scars doesn't give me power in any way, it leaves me with weak points. All it can do is make you have to struggle more, which in turn may in some way, make you stronger, but it's not the negativity that did, it's the 'exercise'(lacking a better word) you were getting while doing so; there are better ways to promote growth--other ways to challenge yourself, without feeling horrible.

Happiness may not always seem attainable, but that's because it's in you the whole time. You don't need fancy cars, a great body, or even friends that like you(though it sure is nice), to be happy, all you need is to let yourself be happy.  If it seems more complicated, it's because you're making it complicated, actively, or without realizing. However, you must want to be happy in order to let yourself be.


..eeh, sorry for the rant. I'm just tired of seeing so much negativity around me (not necessarily on the forum).

I think you could say that there's a difference between being unhappy and wallowing in it.  I know SO MANY people who just thrive on being unhappy...they go out of their way to look at situations in a negative way.  I can't do it.  It takes way too much effort and it's a waste of time.  The problem is trying get people to see things differently...I may give up on that one...

I think fear is really useful. It keeps me safe, warns me of things I am not conciously aware of, pretty good short term motivator. I've done things in fear that I could not normally do. Long term fear is not so good for you.

I don't think feeling horrible is a negative thing. We are built to experience what we perceive as negative things, systems that tell you when things are not good, systems that help you remember things that are not good for you, systems that keep you from physical harm, systems that motivate you to protect others. They only really become negative things when they get out of control. If we all removed our concience the world would be buggered, might as well become a cyberman. How can you improve if you don't know something is bad? I think it is silly to deny your biology, but then a lot of our biology is designed for a rather different world.

Quote from: Nicky on March 31, 2009, 03:01:21 PM
I think fear is really useful. It keeps me safe, warns me of things I am not conciously aware of, pretty good short term motivator. I've done things in fear that I could not normally do. Long term fear is not so good for you.

I don't think feeling horrible is a negative thing. We are built to experience what we perceive as negative things, systems that tell you when things are not good, systems that help you remember things that are not good for you, systems that keep you from physical harm, systems that motivate you to protect others. They only really become negative things when they get out of control. If we all removed our concience the world would be buggered, might as well become a cyberman. How can you improve if you don't know something is bad? I think it is silly to deny your biology, but then a lot of our biology is designed for a rather different world.

I've heard that kind of thinking alot, but it's a misconception. You don't need fear to dislike a situation, and you don't need it for motivation when you have awareness, adrenaline, and desires or the potential for excitement. Adrenaline doesn't come only with fear like some may think. We already have plenty of systems for everything you mentioned, without including fear. You don't need to know bad to improve, you just have to know that there's void(none) and better.  Through all of my experiences, I can tell that the notion that you need bad for there to be good is false.   It is kinda useless since we'll always have at least some fear in us, but if you were to eliminate that fear, it has only benefits. Fear only worsens any situation. We are much more capable without it, if your will to live and prosper is there. And we can still tell what situations are bad or good, based on rationality, awareness, and preferences/desires... actually we can tell better, from my experience.  Of course depressed people would have trouble to live without fear since they would probably all suicide, but depression's also part of negativity.. it all just sucks. Depression is just pure crap.

I guess we have very different perspectives because I see my 'negative' emotions as constructive and useful.

You don't need fear to dislike something as you say, there are a range of useful emotions to use I agree. I think we both agree that too much of an emotion like fear is not particularly useful. But you have to agree that a lot of our more primal instinctive reactions are there to get us to react faster than thought for our own survival or the survival of others. Sometimes they are counterproductive I agree. I'm not saying you need bad for good. What I am saying is emotion in itself is neither bad or good, it just is.

BTW don't you think dislike is a negative emotion? e.g. I dislike Jews, I dislike blacks, I dislike women, I dislike men, I dislike the living....

What is the will to live if you don't care if you die, why would you care for your family and friends and other humans if the thought of losing them does not make you sad? Why would you use anaesthetic or be put under for an operation if you don't fear pain? What is pain to someone that has no fear of it? Why would your body make you flinch from something hot if it did not fear further damage? Words like bad would become meaningless, you won't know good from bad without the ability to experience negative emotion. Why would a void in ability motivate you to improve?

It would be inhuman to not have fear, or sadness, or experience loss, or feel pain and agony, or anger, or grief, embarrassment, incompetence. You would not care if you or others lived or died, you would not care if you suffered harm, you would not care for other people. You might be fuelled by the joy of living and the good feeling of helping others (which you would not as you would be incapable of empathising with their situation) or the satisfaction of bettering yourself but then you would not care if you did not have these things. You would become indifferent to life.

On the flipside too much 'good' emotion can be seen as bad. Too much happiness, too much excitement, too much love. Do you get rid of those too?

I'm saying you need all your emotions in balance to function well.

Just another example. Logically I think there are too many humans, they are competing with me for resources. The logical move would be to eliminate the competition. I could start by killing you. I am probably stronger, wealthier and have access to better weaponry than you and the training to use it. I don't care about how your family would feel, I can't understand why you would be upset, I don't fear getting caught, I don't even dislike you, perhaps I even like you. No negative emotions there, just a nice tidy logical argument and solution that would make me feel happy, perfect eh? Or have I misinterpreted what you are saying?

Hm.  Well, you have to know what you don't like to know what you do like, so I agree that negative feelings have a place.  But so many people get consumed with them that they sabotage themselves.  It's all about balance.

...I think too much happiness is something I'd love to suffer from.  Not delusions of happiness, but the real thing. 

spoiler: different people feel the same feelings with a different strength.

Like for example, the dudes who do parachute jumping probably wouldn't get as stressed in an office setting as a couchpotato who only watches TV.

Also, there is no silver bullet, the things which work for you might work for others, but by no means, for everybody.

Everyboy is equally different.

 I'd have to agree that it's possible that negative emotions can bring about something constructive, but it's not needed. Just because it can, doesn't mean there isn't a better way. We just happened to be brought into negativity since we were born and so have come to develop the false notion that it's needed. You can react from stimulus with enhanced awareness, without fear.
'Dislike' and negative emotions are completely different things even though they often happen together. You could say that dislike is a negative thought; but, for me, I'd say dislike is just an extension of your preferences and desires. What I consider a negative emotion, is ..anytime you feel bad, anytime you feel panic, struggle, sad, or just generally.. anything that feels bad or annoying. Physical pain and discomfort is not negative, it's your interpretation that can make you make yourself feel bad about it. Humans seem to have a natural predisposition towards feeling negative, however it can be overruled.

I guess I won't be able to convince many people at the moment,.. not without dedicating extremely alot of time and effort to convey my feelings on the matter, but one day I would like to write about it in more detail. Though it's not something new, and there seems to be plenty of books about the same kind of view. Many books about negativity, and books such as "You can be happy no matter what", which I've seen around.. but haven't actually read yet. I'll have to find and read them one day to see if it's pretty much how I see it.

"What is the will to live if you don't care if you die"
You don't need to fear death to want to live.  That would make life kinda cheap.. just living for not dying.. Why would I need to experience something bad to care? We are care, it's the only thing that can truly define who you are; your true desires. I'm not talking about petty desires. Though the subject is a long one on its own.

If it's inhuman to have no negative emotions, then I'd rather not be human. 
I don't need them(negative feelings) to love and be happy.

We live; and good and bad things happen. How you react to these things (assuming that you don't suffer from clinical depression or anything like that) is your choice. It's certainly OK to be sad or down from time to time, but some people choose to live full time that way because it is easier.

We all know someone that is eternally sour no matter what is happening to them. No one can stand to be around them for any length of time because they will bring you down. Don't be this person. It does take time and effort to change negative, self defeating thinking, but it can be done.

I'm not talking about going around being artificially happy all of the time, just when you start to have a negative thought banish it and replace it with a positive one. You'll find that things will start to come your way. Why? Because as you retrain the way you think you'll exude a positive "can do" attitude, and people will be attracted to you.

Like the old saying goes, "can't never could do anything".

I wasn't really raised, per se.

I lived in a house with my parents, went to school, and so on.

So, I smile if I happen to feel like smiling. (Though I do have braces atm, so, um, yeah. )

Again I was never told to smile, by my parents.

Jay