Semantics.  Words are words.  Gender, Sex, brain sex, genital sex.  Same things.

Saraloop and Julies W., your theories are saying the same things as what has been said.  The words have just be in changed.

Gender = Brain Sex.  Sex = Genital Sex.  And my favorite.... Blending = Passing.

You say toe*may*toe, I say toe*ma*toe.  It is still a vine ripen fruit.

I am not saying you wrong, just that you have changed the names to protect the innocent. 
It comes down to something is wrong.  And we do what we must to fix the error.  And we say what we have come to understand, to explain it.  I don't think anyone is wrong in their theory.

Janet

 Well actually Julie is contradicting me in a way. For me, Brain sex is the same thing as Gender, it's just a created mental representation, whether subconscious or not.
I don't think transition made everything right, I think it just allowed you to open up because you felt more comfortable in your skin.

And I agree with what K8 said.

But it's not just a change of word. I'd like people to realize that gender is meaningless apart from it being still affecting society. That we don't need to look like anything, that we can be and act anyway we want, and that the only thing stopping us is our own selves.. our fears of being rejected has mutated and constrained us. Don't get me wrong though, just because you don't need it, doesnt mean you can't desire it, and go through with it.

well, from a biological view, sex is nothing more than a genotype.  XX for female and XY for male.  There are, of course, many many variations of those.  Gender is, however, nothing more than a social construct.  There are some biological factors that make females (generally) favor a behavior more than a male would and vise versa.

The real question is, what is it about the opposite gender role that appeals to us so  much?  What makes us so unhappy with the way we were born?  I know the theories about our brains and all, but that is still only a piece of the puzzle.  I've asked the question before.  What if gender roles as we know them were completely reversed, yet we were born the exact same way.  Would we still not be happy in the gender role we were born or would we still want to mimic the behavior of the opposite gender? 

Quote from: Ashley315 on April 11, 2009, 12:10:12 PM
well, from a biological view, sex is nothing more than a genotype.  XX for female and XY for male.  There are, of course, many many variations of those.  Gender is, however, nothing more than a social construct.  There are some biological factors that make females (generally) favor a behavior more than a male would and vise versa.

The real question is, what is it about the opposite gender role that appeals to us so  much?  What makes us so unhappy with the way we were born?  I know the theories about our brains and all, but that is still only a piece of the puzzle.  I've asked the question before.  What if gender roles as we know them were completely reversed, yet we were born the exact same way.  Would we still not be happy in the gender role we were born or would we still want to mimic the behavior of the opposite gender?

I think the only reason your mind messed up in the background is because of your true desires, so I don't think we'd try to mimic the opposite gender, I think we'd associate with whomever fits with those desires, and if as influencable as we were throughout our childhood, then we could again develop a weird bond with that gender and could potentially feel a need to match our body with whatever image we developed.

As I have expressed my feelings and thoughts on this before on another thread, holds just as much on this thread as it did on the other thread.

I accept myself as a woman and I define myself as a woman but I am as unique and different to any other woman as each of them are as different and unique unto them selves in comparison to other women or men as far as that goes.

But then after having lived as a woman for nine years i could say that to my own observations how men think and feel is astronomically difference in comparison, "biff bam Chicago" "slam bam." And the hell with the stereotype crap. I draw a line around my own definition of how I feel as a woman.

I believe I posted this elsewhere either in these forums or another group.

Anyway, My partner and I went for a little drive out in the country yesterday. My side of our Dodge Nitro is all decked out girly like, including a Tinkerbell seat cover. It felt so comfortable sitting there listening the the soft hum of the tires and feeling the beautiful warm sunlight on my face and inhaling the fresh spring air coming through the sun roof.

I felt so right with the world around me, like this was the way it all should have been all my life. I leaned over and put my head on my partners shoulder and let the air blow in my hair and just closed my eyes and enjoyed the ecstasy of the moment. I felt like a little girl just enjoying a ride with a loving parent. Then I thought to myself, I love being Paula's the little house mouse. I believe one becomes more comfortable and at peace as time passes by, you are just being you.

Cindy

exactly my point.  I feel "right" in embracing the gender role of today's woman.  But if those gender roles were reversed would I then feel right in embracing what we think of in our society as being male gender roles?  I guess it's the age old question of, is it the behavior that we feel we belong in or is it something deeper?  I don't wish to act in a stereotypically male way, but what if that was how most women acted?  Would I want to act that way then because I think of myself as a woman?  I really don't have an answer for that and truthfully I don't think it can be answered.  Yes, it looks as though the brain of a transsexual is, in some ways, more closely related to that persons desired sex.  But how much does that affect our personalities and our roles in life?

This is just something I wonder about from time to time.  Not that any of it changes anything.  Life is what it is and in the end, you gotta do what makes you happy.

Quote from: Ashley315 on April 11, 2009, 12:10:12 PMI've asked the question before.  What if gender roles as we know them were completely reversed, yet we were born the exact same way.  Would we still not be happy in the gender role we were born or would we still want to mimic the behavior of the opposite gender?

Even if the gender roles were reversed, I would still do what I am doing.  And that is being the woman I should have been and am now.  For me it isn't about the roles so much as what I see in the mirror.  I can still be a truck driver, auto mechanic, computer programmer, high steel welder or whatever, but I am still a woman.

Quote from: Ashley315 on April 11, 2009, 06:49:50 PM
I feel "right" in embracing the gender role of today's woman. .....I don't wish to act in a stereotypically male way, but what if that was how most women acted?  Would I want to act that way then because I think of myself as a woman?  I really don't have an answer for that and truthfully I don't think it can be answered.  Yes, it looks as though the brain of a transsexual is, in some ways, more closely related to that persons desired sex.  But how much does that affect our personalities and our roles in life?

What more can one say?  I agree 100%, Ashley.  I want nothing to do with the biological gender I was born into.  No one asked me if I want to be male or female.  But I am taking posession of being a woman now.  And even if there was no SOC or HRT or SRS, I would not wish to be in a body I detest.  Gender is between the ears, and not the legs.  Nor is in the DNA.  Gender is between the ears, and my is Female.

This thing call GID isn't about roles, it is about how one views that image in the mirror.  We don't play roles, we live life.  And in order to enjoy that life, one must live it as they see fit.

As the Wiccans say "And it harm none, Do what thy will".

Janet

 You don't need to look like you feel. It just helps to fit in.
.. but I guess to some it doesn't appear that way

sometimes not fitting in is fun however.

Quote from: Saraloop on April 11, 2009, 07:19:43 PM
You don't need to look like you feel. It just helps to fit in.
.. but I guess to some it doesn't appear that way

Speaking for myself only I Know my outward appearence dosent match my true self. That self is unfortunately for me extremely feminine by any standard.The more feminine I look the better I feel its simple as that with me. I also dont believe gender exists because of society. Our brains are structured differently than a mans. Similar but different men and women are "programed" to be the gender they're physically born with 99% of the time. My true self looks, acts, and feels stereotypically feminine. I know that being yourself is a truely liberating and wonderful experiance-alot easier than being someone your not. I've lived my whole life that way and its just not cool. And deep down we all know who and what we truelly are- not just what society or words or conditions say but what deep down we internally know to be true. And just like any other birth defect there is medical treatment for this condition, unfortunatly its not covered by insurance.   

Quote from: coolJ on April 11, 2009, 10:58:57 PM
Speaking for myself only I Know my outward appearence dosent match my true self. That self is unfortunately for me extremely feminine by any standard.The more feminine I look the better I feel its simple as that with me. I also dont believe gender exists because of society. Our brains are structured differently than a mans. Similar but different men and women are "programed" to be the gender they're physically born with 99% of the time. My true self looks, acts, and feels stereotypically feminine. I know that being yourself is a truely liberating and wonderful experiance-alot easier than being someone your not. I've lived my whole life that way and its just not cool. And deep down we all know who and what we truelly are- not just what society or words or conditions say but what deep down we internally know to be true. And just like any other birth defect there is medical treatment for this condition, unfortunatly its not covered by insurance.   

Gender is nothing more than a social construct and is ever evolving and changing.  Like I said, there are some behaviors that woman and men are biologically more prone to, but gender roles isn't really one of them.

Like I have said, I draw a circle around myself and what ever is inside that circle is how I define myself as a woman. We all do, both men and cisgender women will have their own personal understanding and definition as to how they see themselves as a man or woman.

The thing is how I perceive myself to be, not judging myself as to how the women next to me presents herself, but how I present myself can be as personalised as my finger prints. Although I  may envy what the woman next to me is wearing and how she looks in it I may wonder what I would look like in the same outfit.

Or we could secretly envy someone because of how they look and comport themselves and wish we could be like that, but at the end of the day we go home as who we are, our own personification of what we wish people around us to see and perceive us as.  Such is the nature of the female.

Once at home you may want to take a warm bath to relax, then sit in a comfortable chair in your nightie with a good book

You are just you, relaxing after a long day at work, just reading what ever tickles your fancy. Whether that be a Zane Grey novel, a Harlequins Romance novel, the gossip sheet, The National Enquirer, or The Wall Street Journal. Whatever it is you enjoy to read, you are just being you, a woman enjoying a good read.

Just use your own inner intuition and do what it tells you.

Cindy

Quote from: Ashley315 on April 12, 2009, 12:44:53 AM
Gender is nothing more than a social construct and is ever evolving and changing.  Like I said, there are some behaviors that woman and men are biologically more prone to, but gender roles isn't really one of them.

Hmm, I was born physically a male but my earliest memories are of thinking I was female and really wanting to be female after I was told I was a boy. So how being born male am I biologically prone to be female. Just a little background on me is that my whole life to cope with this out of fear,love, protection, yada, yada I've had to work at being more masculine. Since my acceptance I dont try to be manly anymore and its very natural for me to act feminine. I do think society has some influence but I think 1000 years from now gender will still be unchanged with us.

Quote from: coolJ on April 12, 2009, 06:26:16 AM
Hmm, I was born physically a male but my earliest memories are of thinking I was female and really wanting to be female after I was told I was a boy. So how being born male am I biologically prone to be female. Just a little background on me is that my whole life to cope with this out of fear,love, protection, yada, yada I've had to work at being more masculine. Since my acceptance I dont try to be manly anymore and its very natural for me to act feminine. I do think society has some influence but I think 1000 years from now gender will still be unchanged with us.

Me too.   

I really don't know what gender I am anymore. I'm not sure it really matters. What I do know is that because of my physical body, someone marked my sex as male on a birth certificate. I also know that I am not male. Plain and simple. That doesn't mean that I'm female though.

What most people consider gendered traits I see as human traits, irregardless of gender. Our society attaches assumptions and expectations to these traits.

I don't like being automatically gendered by people.

Z

Actually with the current way things are going, it is highly likely that one day we will evolve to a point where you cannot tell the sexes apart.  Gender roles are changing and have changed drastically from 60 years ago.  Back then, it was not appropriate for women to smoke, or wear pants, nor was it appropriate for men to have ear piercings.  These were all commonly thought of as being traits of the opposite gender.  One of the biggest changes in societal gender roles is probably the fact that male nurses are common place in today's society.  Sixty years ago, this was not the case.

Like I said, there are some behaviors that the sexes are biologically prone to do, but most are learned behaviors and choices made based on how we want the world to view us.  I can guarantee  you that women don't wear makeup and dresses because their brain tells them to.

Hi Ashly hun, no offence but why would someone want to transition if the only differences are the ones you have mentioned in your post?

Whether our traits as women were once imposed upon us as learned behaviour by society, I don't remember my mom or my grandmother complaining about their roles in society, except for occasionally saying, "MEN!!!!"  They will never understand..

I believe I learned much of my behaviours and characteristics from my mom, we were close and I loved her much, what better role could I follow. 

Cindy

it was only an example of common female/male behavior. 

You basically proved my point by saying a lot of your behavior you learned from your mother.  We learn these things from seeing how others act.  If your mother had been had many behaviors that were commonly considered "male", then you would most likely have picked those up as well, or found someone else to pick up behaviors from.

I find this very interesting, its a good point to bring up :3

Other than following a trend, trying to be the other crowd, blending in or just trying to be what you are not (mentally to follow someone else' path) seems like you had no intention of being the girl / woman you really see yourself being.

I grew up being myself and looking at the world in a different way than most people I met or knew and I had no female hero's at the time and looked at the world in a new way than I saw most seeing it.
Consider the fact celebrity's never existed, its like you have no figure or hero to look up to and explore your own inner-self and reflect upon what is more valuable.

This world has so many stereotypes and gender-based roles from way back in the 60's and some people still cling to those beliefs.

In my honest opinion, people try to mimic or imitate others to ride the same car everyone else has to get either attention or to make them become something they do not understand.

When it comes to transgenders the roles are reversed and we just seem to want to live in the life of a female... but not all of us want to follow having a girlfriend / boyfriend because society depicts that all around us... many of us have different ideals and beliefs which is why when we try to pit it all together into one box, they scramble around because they have no place to wander to.

I think a lot of us still have a LONG way to go before we truly understand ourselves and OTHERS just as well, we may think we can dress better than someone or do something twice as fast or anything else... it all just comes down to being YOU.

In my mind I do not see my personality changing other than some traits I highly dislike (masculine ones) and physical / mental traits I also want to change around.

On the other hand, it seems most transgenders try to imitate others (not that its a bad thing) but seem to be who they are not when instead we or they could try changing their image to be individually different in that same sense of imitation (like copying a celebrity or fashion / trend)

It all just comes down to personal flavor really :3

Ok putting it the way you all are perceiving gender rolls I must agree you are correct. But speaking for myself I must say that as far as gender rolls I must admit that for the most part they are learned behaviour. I have often mentioned on this board on different occasions about being encouraged or conditioned and even forced as we grow up to behave as the gender that our physical bodies present.


But why does this go against our grain from the very beginning? Even before I could differentiate between the sex. For example my true desire was to be with and do things with my sister and my mom more then going out to do boy stuff. 

I would call this instinctive. 
I was never a guy, I was only playing the roll in order to fit in where I didn't belong to begin with.

Since I feel I am a woman and living as a woman, I certainly wouldn't "dread" want to go around behaving like a guy, "yucka mucka!"

I have always had many of the traits of my mom and have adapted those traits to my own personality as to who I present as today. But then my idea of being a woman may be a we bit old fashioned because I was raised with much diferent values and ideas in the 50's and 60's about being a woman then most do today.

Cindy