Quote from: Nichole on May 26, 2009, 03:26:57 PM
GID is a socio-economic and ethnic and cultural equal opportunity condition.

The original post took me instantly to my life before it was decided I was transitioning.  In no way would I say my life was a living hell then.  In fact, it was pretty good.  I had three healthy kids and a nice wife.  I had friends who respected me and always enjoyed my company.  My mom was always happy to hear from me and see me as were most of my siblings.  While my dad was alive he and I spent a lot of quality time and after he passed his wife and I remained good friends.  And at work I achieved what few in my field have.  I was highly respected and made a good living.  Not bad.

The only problem was that I was trans.

And the only major mistake I made was not controlling, analyzing and assessing the impact of my coming out.

I won't go into detail about the whole coming out fiasco but I will say since then I've lost pretty much everything I had prior to coming out. 

But I did find the love of my life. 

Life today is harder when I'm dealing with the outside world.  Those who knew me before find it too hard to accept as a woman the person they once saw as a very masculine man.  And I understand their difficulty or even inability to do so.  I played the part very well.

For those who meet me today, they see the male traits and wonder.  Once I speak, the suspicion of my birth gender is often validated.  My male voice was deeper than 95% of men.  And there's all the other residual effects from over half a century playing the part of a man that seep through.

Once I step outside the door the challenge begins.  So in many ways, my life today is harder than it was before.

But inside, the war has ended.  I am no longer battling during every waking hour of the day and that brings a lot of relief from stress, anxiety, depression, etc.  So, in that respect, my life is easier.  There's a lot to be said about the benefits of gaining one's freedom.

I don't believe I was put here to have a cushy life and I don't expect to have one.  No one gets that.  And I'm fine with that.  But I do know, had I not been trans, my life would have been a cakewalk compared to what it is now.  Sometimes I recall the times when the trans issue wasn't burning inside me and I was pretty happy in my male life then.

Everyone has their challenges.  No one gets a free pass.  You have to make the best of what you have and I'm working on that.  And I probably will for the rest of my life.  It gives me something to live for. 

Tolle said something like "Unhappiness is never the situation, only your thoughts about it."  And I believe that.  But sometimes I forget and I have to get a good kick in the butt to remind me.

Julie

GID is a socio-economic and ethnic and cultural equal opportunity condition.

The outcomes are hardly equal opportunity however.

Quote from: tekla on May 26, 2009, 03:41:44 PM
GID is a socio-economic and ethnic and cultural equal opportunity condition.

The outcomes are hardly equal opportunity however.

Agreed. The evidence abounds though that even with the socio-economic advantage some continue to struggle in other aspects of their lives.

Julie Marie's post pretty well encapsulated that. Nice, excellent post, JM!

Quote from: Julie MarieI don't believe I was put here to have a cushy life and I don't expect to have one.  No one gets that.  And I'm fine with that.  But I do know, had I not been trans, my life would have been a cakewalk compared to what it is now.

And thats what make being trans and transitioning so difficult. Its not simply about economics alone... we go through life building a framework... maybe better described as weaving a tapestry composed of friends and loved ones who touch our lives and become part of us. Of goals, dreams and ambitions that we realize... of growth we achive through our successes and failures. And yet we willingly trade that away, give up control of our own destiny because of something we have no control over. We hope that we can find strength, compassion, understanding in those who become intertwined in our psyche. But when all is said and done, whatever path we choose, we cant rely on others to define our happiness -- to define us. And that can be, and often is, a damned lonely trek.

Ive never relied on others to validate my sense of self worth. Whenever someone has said something cant be done, that things cannot be changed, that my conviction or beliefs were scrutinized, Ive always found following my head, my heart, my gut... was always the right choice regardless of the outcome.

But no man/woman is an island. Humans by nature are social creatures, and without contact, touch, intimacy... we whither and die. And where is that going to come from? Our nature is to seek out those who would understand our vision... who can relate to the very things that make up our core. So when those people turn on us in an effort to separate their "before" life from their "after"... everyone loses. And it hurts like hell!

Some would tell you "->-bleeped-<- the others, I dont care what they think!", I wonder how far they really get. Its not even about whether they resolve their GID... better question is do they resolve the missing puzzle pieces, or will they forever be shelved somewhere, waiting to be completed "some day"...

Quote from: Paul SimonAnd a rock feels no pain, and an island never cries...

I for one would rather feel pain and cry tears... at least I know that I am still alive....

Quote from: Stacy Brahm on May 26, 2009, 04:23:02 PM
Some would tell you "->-bleeped-<- the others, I dont care what they think!", I wonder how far they really get. Its not even about whether they resolve their GID... better question is do they resolve the missing puzzle pieces, or will they forever be shelved somewhere, waiting to be completed "some day"...

I for one would rather feel pain and cry tears... at least I know that I am still alive....

Thank you Stacy!  I so often have heard the "why care about them" mantra but to me all that is is avoiding what you can't handle.  It's tough to face rejection and even tougher to try to get those who reject you to listen to you.  They can't face it so they avoid it.  If we ever expect them to come around we can't do what they do.

If you acknowledge your feelings and let them happen you are on the path to healing.

Julie

Quote from: cindybc on May 24, 2009, 11:36:14 PM
Hi Chrissty, I believe that Nichole's topic is very much part of what we have been discussing. I just wish for you to know that I would not look down my nose at anyone for whatever reasons. I may not agree with someone's outlook or definition of what transitioning is all about or how they choose to do it, but I am not here to argue such and nitpick over the many different classifications that are based on whatever is involved in transitioning.

I just know from my own personal observation and experience  that GID does not lessen or get better as time passes. As you get older it gets more hellish to cope with. Some have done it, but they weren't happy campers to be sure. I am not aware of anyone who has found a way to defeat GID and remain mentally stable without transitioning.

But then, sis, I am not here to argue the fine points of whether you should transition or not transition. I am here in this group to use what personal knowledge and experience I have and do my best to give support and guidance to those who want it, labels notwithstanding.

Cindy

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Post Merge: May 24, 2009, 06:10:21 PM

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Hi Interallia
I have no idea how anyone could forget that there are many of us who are living on the streets, looking for a meal, and are in such a predicament because they suffer from GID.  I submit that the only privilege involved is having been born with GID.

If one cannot land or hold a job because they are gender dysphoric, then how can they climb to the next level of Maslow's Hierarchy? 

Until one has earnestly tried to transition on the job, one cannot know the negativity that causes.  People get fired for transitioning.  They are gently forced to leave a job that they have done well for no reason other than they are transitioning to their true gender.  My mate was "shown the door" over a period of two years. 

These conversation boards are filled with anecdotal and actual evidence of TS persons not being able to get a job because of their appearance or over which washroom they would need to use. 

In the last year there was a case brought to court concerning a person who was interviewed by the Library of Congress for a position that required a defined set of skills and a high military clearance.  He got the job and was asked to meet the hiring manager over lunch.  When the otherwise-qualified candidate showed-up at the lunch in feminine attire the job offer was withdrawn.

I suppose that she had the privilege of having a job within her grasp only to find it snatched away by transphobia.  Where is the privilege in that?  How is that  "high-class" problem?

I don't follow the "curative" approach to transsexualism as embraced by Zucker et al.  It just doesn't work.

However, there is another privilege to be recognized here.  Really, it's a basic human right.  That is the right for a person to be who they truly are, both inside and outside.

I lived on the street for nearly ten years, not knowing where my next meal was coming from or if I would have a roof over my head to keep me out of the weather. Even though I didn't know what GID was at the time I certainly had the symptoms, full blown GID. Try and hide that and survive on the street and try to get work and go to school so that I could do something for myself.

I graduated from school with a certificate for social worker and fortunately, a few years later I also had the fortune of transitioning on the job without repercussions. I worked the last ten years of my profession proudly as a social worker as a woman. I am grateful for having had the "privilege" of working as my true self with those who were in need that includes street people.

Cindy

Excellent points, Cindy. To the transsexual sex worker or homeless TS, GID seems to still be on the level of the most basic needs.

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Post Merge: May 26, 2009, 05:09:56 PM

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Quote from: interalia on May 26, 2009, 02:01:13 AM
My experience echoes that of Nichole's.  I realize it isn't like this everywhere, but it would be VERY hard to convince me that this doesn't describe the majority of people who seek transition.

You're forgetting the large number of black and other minority transwomen transitioning without real means to do so, engaged in sex work and the like just to survive. Now, whether it's true that most who have actually undergone SRS are the privileged majority, I don't know.

Quote from: Nero on May 26, 2009, 05:02:43 PM
You're forgetting the large number of black and other minority transwomen transitioning without real means to do so, engaged in sex work and the like just to survive. Now, whether it's true that most who have actually undergone SRS are the privileged majority, I don't know.

Whether the majority of people transitioning are privileged or not wasn't exactly my point about privilege. My point about privilege is that it's more than well-represented on internetz boards and forums that discuss transitioning. In that regard we are a very white, very middle-to-upper class group and have the leisure and the means to have the silly arguments we further about "who is real and how you prove that to x's satisfaction."

When you're busting your ass to eat and shelter and clothe yourself you're generally not much interested in arguments about who is a "classic" or "unclassic" transsexual and who is or is not qualified to be called "woman" or "man."

Sister mine, I can't type much due to the injury to my arm--which is improving with treatment today--but I know that I personally traded in the fear of having my gender dysphoria ferreted out and exposed for the fear of my past being discovered an exposed, thereby changing people's view of me.

My stalker forced my hand, and i came out entirely. As a result, I am no longer hiding a huge portion of who I am, just like before. Now my friends know me "warts and all" as you have said, and the love and acceptance I have received from my cisgendered friends has stunned me and left me feeling blessed.

Shay

Quote from: Nichole on May 26, 2009, 05:17:07 PM
Whether the majority of people transitioning are privileged or not wasn't exactly my point about privilege. My point about privilege is that it's more than well-represented on internetz boards and forums that discuss transitioning. In that regard we are a very white, very middle-to-upper class group and have the leisure and the means to have the silly arguments we further about "who is real and how you prove that to x's satisfaction."

When you're busting your ass to eat and shelter and clothe yourself you're generally not much interested in arguments about who is a "classic" or "unclassic" transsexual and who is or is not qualified to be called "woman" or "man."

Ah ok. That does make sense. Net trans discussion and groups do seem to be overly white, privileged representative. With good reason as you stated. Underprivileged transpeople may not even have net access and if they do, they certainly don't have time to talk definitions.

Quote from: Stealthgrrl on May 26, 2009, 07:03:22 PM
Now my friends know me "warts and all" as you have said, and the love and acceptance I have received from my cisgendered friends has stunned me and left me feeling blessed.

Yes, I know. Not all of our fears are meaningless or without pain. Some become very horrific: I think about girls like Angie and Gwen and understand that being open may not always be the safest and best way to live.

But I am too well aware of this from my own life, Shay. Living in fear and self-loathing only took me deeoer into despair, fear and self-loathing.

Being "out and proud" isn't everyone's answer, maybe not even an answer for most of us. But finding our own internal validity as human beings, just as we are, with no recourse to having to fit someone else's mould for fear we shall "not belong" or be discovered. Doesn't seem to me to differ from the fear, despair and self-loathing that most of us admit to before we transitioned (to whatever degree we shall or have.)

To continue making the effort to build self-efficacy from outward to inward is a losing effort, best as I can tell. Most of our "doctrines" and the ways we try so hard to force others to "be like me or you're not real or worthy" are more than lost causes. They are the seeds of our own self-despising that we nourish and allow to grow thick within us, choking out the acceptance and validity that we so urgently crave.

Well, just imo, and speaking from my experience.

You've got a remarkable set of cissexual friends, Shay. Trans ones as well.

N~

QuoteWhether the majority of people transitioning are privileged or not wasn't exactly my point about privilege. My point about privilege is that it's more than well-represented on internetz boards and forums that discuss transitioning. In that regard we are a very white, very middle-to-upper class group and have the leisure and the means to have the silly arguments we further about "who is real and how you prove that to x's satisfaction."

When you're busting your ass to eat and shelter and clothe yourself you're generally not much interested in arguments about who is a "classic" or "unclassic" transsexual and who is or is not qualified to be called "woman" or "man."

"Ah!" OK now I get it. Like Nero I was a bit flamboozled or way laid over the interpretation as to how this middle to upper class folks suffering with GID verses those who are poor or on the street was being arrived at, or how it was being separately classification. In respect to the Internet, yes I must agree, thank you for the clarification hon.

Well when I first came to Susan's 12 years ago, I was probably just irking my way up middle class or the upper end of of the scale to lower class. But then even when I was living on the street I always did my best to retain some pride in myself and did my best to retain some semblance of self confidence and self esteem, even if I didn't have two pennies to rub together. I believe it was a combination of alcoholism and GID that brought me to the streets to start with. Well at the time I had found a lot more peace on the street then I had done before for a good many years, and I will not go further because that would be another story.

Today I am retired and so is my mate and between the two of our pensions we aren't hurtin for money, reasonably well off. This probably the best and happiest I have ever experienced before in just a few short years. Nobody knows anything about my past here and never had any reason to tell anyone any different then what they see me present as. Of course those at the support group know but then that is also part of the volunteer work I do outside of the women's shelter.

No I didn't come here to argue with anyone about how they wish to do things. But I get curious and I want to know who does what and why so maybe sometimes I may come out sounding like I am asking some impertanant questions. Sorry to all If I did come out sounding like that.

Cindy 

Time for some of the rest...

A living hell.

A friend of mine who runs a fairly high profile blog once asked me why I once said I wouldn't wish being TS on my worst enemy.

She asked me why I said that -- being trans wasn't bad, it wasn't shameful. Why would I ever say that?

I said because it was too good a thing.

Too wonderful an experience. Too incredible a journey.

I don't remember the bad. Generally speaking, when I look back in casual search of my memories, I remember only those moments after the bad.

but for my transition, I was made to remember the bad, to revisit those moments of my childhood and adulthood that I had so readily forgotten, and so happily.

It sucked, but ya know what?

I only had to remember them.  Not drag them into my life today and now.

Not let them dictate who I was or how I was going to be.

I am not ashamed of my life before transition -- I loved it.  But I am not that person anymore --I have changed.  I have grown and learned and moved beyond the testosterone shots and the rage and the occasinal miseries


And I agree with Nichole -- I'm weird, but transition can end.  Its not forever.  Its a moment between point a and point b.

For me, it was rather strange --but I like that.  I place great value in not being normal, not being run of the mill.  and yet, I am.

I often say I am perfect.  And Its fascinating how people say that can't be possible.

Yet I am. Because *anything* is possible. And the only perfection I need is to be a perfect me.

Quote from: dyssonance on May 27, 2009, 11:31:48 PM

...

And I agree with Nichole -- I'm weird, but transition can end.  It's not forever.  Its a moment between point a and point b.

Nichole, being both a hedge witch and a hedge metaphysician in one of my guises, doesn't believe transition ends, Dyss. O, perhaps the one where my body changed and the markers on identity documents changed ends. But, in the larger use of that term it never ends.

I live, I grow. I grow, I change. Transition. In the end even death isn't an end. My constituent matter and energy are always conserved and keep on going and changing. The great Unbroken Circle.

I plan to be burnt, preferably on a pyre on a headland. But for those who don't there will come a time, perhaps, when the body remains are exhumed: a forensic pathologist, an archaeologist or anthropologist, might run across those in the course of a dig or an autopsy and label those remains "human male, Homo sapiens." The ultimate outing from a stealth life? Or, just another predictable brick in the wall?

Even before that I presume, if we stay in USA, there will be an undertaker who will "prepare" our bodies for cremation or burial. "Hmmm," says she, "this corpse is listed female, but as I work on her I see she was born male for all intents and purposes. Curious, must have been trans."

Ah, but then you make the true point.  

Quote...  I place great value in not being normal, not being run of the mill.  and yet, I am.

I often say I am perfect.  And Its fascinating how people say that can't be possible.

Yet I am. Because *anything* is possible. And the only perfection I need is to be a perfect me.

And to affirm that, to be able to affirm that, you must be whole. Perhaps no one but one's self need own one's history in this set of bodies, but to see one's own perfection one must at the least own it. In one's deepest heart of hearts one must own that one's history is what it is and was. To rail and deny and kick against that is to continue the basic pattern of GID.

What I too often see is the persistent desire to be rid of not just body configurations, but to be rid of much of a life. But life, by it's nature, is born, matures and eventually dies. It's sparks are transferred to other shapes and forms.

But it's history is what built it.

It seems to me that when we deny to ourselves our histories then we basically continue in self-loathing and fear. A fear and loathing, possibly, more acute than that we experienced prior to beginning that physical transition.

It took me years to realize that.

I find I cannot condemn in the least those who want to live their lives forgetting who they were and from whence they came. I expect there's no real need to be "out."

But, there is a real need to know thyself. To deny myself that is to deny myself life and memory. The joys (and there were joys) of a huge portion of my life and to begin life in the most bereft sense of that term "begin" as only a partial person with a partial life.

I found that when I came to terms with that, I was able to come to terms with others knowing if they had to and that their knowing didn't arouse my fear and self-loathing. It was gone and with it the last vestiges of GID.

Then I, like you, could be perfect. Not in practically every way like Mary Poppins, but in the way one can then snuggle into his/her life and find, mirabile dictu, peace and comfort. Someone knowing doesn't matter. They cannot steal my life if I refuse to give it away.

N~

Quote from: Nichole on May 28, 2009, 12:07:40 AM
Nichole, being both a hedge witch and a hedge metaphysician in one of my guises, doesn't believe transition ends, Dyss. O, perhaps the one where my body changed and the markers on identity documents changed ends. But, in the larger use of that term it never ends.

I live, I grow. I grow, I change. Transition. In the end even death isn't an end. My constituent matter and energy are always conserved and keep on going and changing. The great Unbroken Circle.

I plan to be burnt, perferably on a pyre on a headland. But for those who don't there will come a time, perhaps, when the body remains are exhumed: a forensic pathologist, an archaeologist or anthropologist, might run across those in the course of a dig or an autopsy and label those remains "human male, Homo sapiens." The ultimate outing from a stealth life? Or, just another predictable brick in the wall?

Even before I presume, if we stay in USA there will be an undertaker who will "prepare" our bodies for cremation or burial. "Hmmm," says she, "this corpse is listed female, but as i work on her I see she was born male for all intents and purposes. Curious, must have been trans."

Ah, but then you make the true point.  

And to affirm that, to be able to affirm that, you must be whole. Perhaps no one but you need own one's history in this set of bodies, but to see one's own perfection one must at the least own it. In one's deepest heart of hearts one must own that one's history is what it is and was. To rail and deny and kick against that is to continue the basic pattern of GID.

What I too often see is the persistent desire to be rid of not just body configurations, but to be rid of much of a life. But  life, by it's nature is born, matures and eventually dies. It's sparks are transferred to other shapes and forms.

But it's history is what built it.

It seems to me that when we deny to ourselves our histories then we basically continue in self-loathing and fear. A fear and loathing, possibly, more acute than that we experienced prior to beginning that physical transition.

It took me years to realize that.

I find I cannot condemn in the least those who want to live their lives forgetting who they were and from whence they came. I expect there's no real need to be "out."

But, there is a real need to know thyself. To deny myself that is to deny myself life and memory. The joys (and there were joys) of a huge portion of my life and to begin life in the most bereft sense of that term "begin" as only a partial person with a partial life.

I found that when I came to terms with that, I was able to come to terms with others knowing if they had to and that their knowing didn't arouse my fear and self-loathing. It was gone and with it the last vestiges of GID.

Then I, like you, could be perfect. Not in practically every way like Mary Poppins, but in the way one can then snuggle into his/her life and finds, mirabile dictu, peace and comfort. Someone knowing doesn't matter. They cannot steal my life if I refuse to give it away.

N~

That was gorgeous, Nikki. And so true.

And you, Nero, are beautiful, rare, precious, and my friend. Thank you.

N~

Hi, Nichole, I didn't know I had a sister witch and metaphysical scholar on this board.

QuoteBut, there is a real need to know thyself. To deny myself that is to deny myself life and memory. The joys (and there were joys) of a huge portion of my life and to begin life in the most bereft sense of that term "begin" as only a partial person with a partial life.

Yes, there are many very good memories of my past as a child and in my grown-up years. I look back upon the years of hardships I have suffered as learning experiences. All that I have experienced in life were lessons which taught me how to keep moving forward on my journey through life even through the most devastating of times.  I truly believe I would not be here if I had not strove to keep moving forward.

As for the GID, it all was part of my life, part of the many experiences that I needed for growth, both mentally and spiritually. Although I have felt regret, shame, and failure in the past, today I have no such feelings.

Looking back I have no difficulty in seeing my true self, the one I have been all along and to this day. I do my best to rejoice and embrace life today. I plan my future and live it as best I can. I shall always be who I am as I was within and now present without.

But of course, transitioning is a never ending story. It is an inner growth, a soul growth. I believe that all in the universe undergoes a recycling processes.  I am for once in my life as whole as I will ever be in this reality. I am who I am.

I will be what I shall be and I won't be around to see the forensic pathologist, an archaeologist or anthropologist classify my remains and I could not care less what they do with my remains.  I will already be at the Pearly Gates collecting my fairy wings for my next mission in the Enchanted Forest.

Cindy

Quote from: NicholeWhat I too often see is the persistent desire to be rid of not just body configurations, but to be rid of much of a life. But life, by it's nature, is born, matures and eventually dies. It's sparks are transferred to other shapes and forms.

But it's history is what built it.

It seems to me that when we deny to ourselves our histories then we basically continue in self-loathing and fear. A fear and loathing, possibly, more acute than that we experienced prior to beginning that physical transition.

I think its really two separate but parallel paths. Our need to transition stems from feeling out of sync, an impedance mismtach between our minds and our physical existance... but this should not be confused or blamed for the bad things we experience in life. I think the reason so many of us lump the two together is that suffering we may experience outside the relm of GID tends to intensify and magnify the already psychological pummeling we put ourselves through trying to make sense of a situation that is clearly not in our control. It doesnt take long before we start to blame all the other things in our lives for our GID... and when some do make the transition they want to discard anything to do with the GID they felt... and hence all of the unrelated history with it.

Quote from: Al PachinoBut there is nothin like the sight of an amputated spirit, there is no prosthetic for that.

Denial of our past doesn't work... everything that happens to us in life... every joy, every sorrow, every emotion and experience shapes us and defines who we are and who we become. It shapes our character and our outlook on life. There is no way to remove the parts we disdain without inadvertantly tossing some of our best bits into the trash.

Quote from: CindyBut of course, transitioning is a never ending story. It is an inner growth, a soul growth.

That seems to be the second mistake many tend to make. Instead of seeing transitioning as merely another stop along the journey, many treat it like the finish line in a race where they've spent a lifetime doing endless laps around some oval track.

Our lives are spent on a quest.... quest for love, for knowledge, for friendship... for those things that make us complete. But we are an ever changing puzzle, and just when we think we found the last piece, we look down and find the picture has changed! Some see that as a new challenge, others look in dismay and throw up their hands in disgust... and learn nothing in the process.

I'll clue you in on a little secret.... it was never about finishing the puzzle...

Quote from: cindybc on May 28, 2009, 02:22:14 AM

I will be what I shall be and I won't be around to see the forensic pathologist, an archaeologist or anthropologist classify my remains and I could not care less what they do with my remains.  I will already be at the Pearly Gates collecting my fairy wings for my next mission in the Enchanted Forest.

Nope, nor would I expect anyone to do that. Why? Because it would just be ridiculous, wouldn't it! I mean, one's body's dead, buried and what does it matter, right?

What does it matter while we're still alive? (And it obviously matters a lot to a number of rather loud and insistent folks.)

We are consistenty trying to make dualities: life/death, black/white, male/female and trying to match our lives and hearts to one or the other.

We carve ourselves into at least two pieces from the git, helped along by some of the most insane religious belief ever come to earth.

Life is unity. Each of our lives is a unity. My life is not a train that I stop from time to time and uncouple cars and leave them on a siding somewhere never to be used or seen again.

Stacy's right, I think, that it, all of it ... was never about finishing the puzzle.... How does one finish what has no alpha-point and no omega-point?

N~   

Even before that I presume, if we stay in USA, there will be an undertaker who will "prepare" our bodies for cremation or burial. "Hmmm," says she, "this corpse is listed female, but as I work on her I see she was born male for all intents and purposes. Curious, must have been trans."

I think at that point your dead - as in 'not getting any better.'  And dead is just another way of saying "Franky my dear, I don't give a damn."

And exactly what is a 'sane' religion?

And not much is black and white - hell black and white are not even black and white but a bunch of shades.  Some white people can be darker than some black people - and when you ponder on that little oddity you begin to understand how f-ed up that simple duality deal is. It's only stupidity that sees life in such a clear cut distinction.